If you read the first post I made in the thread you would see the fix I would like (the longer one on page 4 about Mortal Online). I don't honestly see any change coming in Skyrim, that would be unrealistic (aside from mods). I really don't like the perk trees for more reasons than simply not liking them. I think a lot of them are simply unimaginative. Many are too linear. I also find that only a small fraction of the lv 100 perks are worth getting. One handed and two handed perk trees are too similar, and their 100 perk is not very attractive for example. Without even picking a weapon specialization you chew through any enemy fast enough that the paralyze just doesn't draw me in. These are nowhere near all my complaints about perks. People argue that they make people more unique. I find it rare for someone to have a build unique enough to claim this.

Not how the game works.

Overall, I like the perk system in that it prevents a master of everything that was possible in Oblivion. I do find it a little silly that I can level up a completely unrelated skill, and use the experience and levels gained from that to put perks in somewhere completely unrelated (someone mentioned leveling smithing and putting no perks into it as an example).

The other issue related to that, is that in order to achieve the higher levels, you do need to level up skills that you plan on putting no perks into. If I'm playing a mage that plans to use no combat skills, or stealth skills (save maybe Alchemy), I'll find that I can level up my primary skills to 100 and be very perk deficient, whereas I become a stronger mage by then doing things completely unrelated such as smithing, sneaking, and one handed fighting for example.

Not sure of a better solution though, just my thoughts on the matter.

You mean choosing perks have a big impact on your game?

Yeah, we can't have that in a FPS-adventure-game :teehee:

Perks actually make perfect sense. As long as you have the skill requirement for the perk you can put a perk into it no matter how you earned that perk. If youre level 5 and you hit 30 skill in heavy armor and then leveled straight smithing to level 10, does it matter if you throw one of those perks into heavy armor well fitted? Of course not, you've already earned the chance to get well fitted at level 5. Think about how busy your dragonborn is. "Hey sweet, Ive learned something new about heavy armor, but I can't work on that right now because I have to smith 100 iron dagger." "Oh sweet, I have 100 iron daggers now, where was I with that heavy armor?" BOOM Well Fitted

However, by that logic, say I didn't decide to smith those 100 daggers, and let's say that I maxed out my heavy armor skill (and that I'm currently out of perk points). Now, I don't have that extra perk to put into heavy armor. But then, one day, I decide to smith 100 daggers, and all of a sudden, I am able to invest a perk in heavy armor? Now, you may be able to argue, if you want to push it, that smithing those daggers gave me insight into how they can be used to attack armor and thus improve my heavy armor ability. This is however harder to justify for something even more unrelated like, say illusion magic.

It is better having the greatest power come from perks rather than from skill levels. Now we can freely use a skill without worrying about becoming so good at it that our other skills become unnecessary. In previous games, I disliked being forced to become a blademaster just because I used a blade or stealth master just because I sneaked a lot.

Im not going to push it one way or the other. Youre at 100 skill, youve earned the right to put perks where ever you want in heavy armor, no matter where or how you got said perks. Thats my point. I added an rpg flair of a busy dragonborn to it though.

Its like college man. I want to be an engineer, but Ive still gotta take english comp for my degree? I want perks in heavy armor but I still gotta do other crap to get my perks?

The overall design of the leveling system is based off the perks. The perks in this game is where the real power is at.

It was a bad design decision how it was implemented. There is nothing wrong with having the meat and potatoes come from the perks, the problem is they combines that with a 1 perk per level system in an ES game. This effectively makes that vast majority of your leveling a pointless grind of skills which is not something you want to promote in a game. If they had wanted to make the power come from perks they should have gave you a perk every X skill points for that skill have you unlock maybe 5 or 6 perks in each skill with enough perks in each skill to promote a variety of character builds, like if light and heavy armor were one skill the 5 perks would determine if you were an expert in one or a dabbler in both. If they were hard up for the 1 perk a level thing then the skills should provide a much more substantial benefit than they do so that while you would never really master a skill without the perks, leveling a skill was never a pointless grind.

I was the one talking about leveling smithing. You have great points here. I think this is the source of my displeasure in the perk system, leveling unrelated skills to fill in other perk trees is silly. Someone training in one handed hits 100 and is now very experienced takes some perks and has some skill. Now he has no perks. So he brews boatloads of potions till he hits 100 now he invests all the perks he gained doing so into one handed and is now a true master at one handed? Or in my example my Mage has high experience in magic schools walks away to level smithing and is suddenly has more advanced magic? Huh?

Would be nice to have a different system for gaining perks at least. Think my biggest beef is just that using unrelated skills can increase other skills mastery. Though in the current state if that was removed there would not be enough perks to go around for your chosen skills. More I look at this the more the Mortal Online system looks good, modified of course.

The system is fine, I just wish that Smithing wasn't as broken although that's up to the player.

You could say that about any TES game from Morrowind onwards I believe - levelling up has always come from upping your skills. Pick skills that you will utilise a lot within your character build and then the grind goes away - you level up by playing the game. :blink:

RE the light/heavy armour point - if you want to dabble with both, wear a bit of both.

I like the perks being that important. You still need the skill to get the perk, so it's not like having 100 in a skill is totally pointless. Not the developers fault if you play two-handed but don't take the perks for it.

You can have ultimate control. Either max a particular skill, or max skills you don't use, or put them into skills you don't normally use, or no skills at all. Or anything in between. It seems to make sense to me anyway.

Which is really no different than raising your skill level, which is why IMHO perks are largely an illusion. There is very little difference from Oblivion's advance a skill to 60 and Skyrim's advance a skill to 60 and take three levels of the base perk. They pretty much do the same thing. There are some interesting perks, but at least half are dull, unimaginative generic skill buffs.

Example: I think that the skill buff by sword/axe/mace is great. That truly creates differentiation. The base one handed perks? Why bother? They add nothing that could not have been rolled into skill increases.

IMHO FO3 NV did a much better job of combining attributes, skills and perks. The perks really felt like perks and really did change the game from an RP PoV. I suppose that is why there is some disappointment with what we have. Bethesda had a great example of doing it right and for some reason (streamlining?) abandoned it.

The biggest problem I have with the perk system is that so many of them are completely worthless.

lockpicking tree: completely worthless. Each of my characters has ended up with 99+ lockpicks with zero perks taken.

speechcraft: Again, worthless. I guess if you want to invest in a shop you could take them, but with both of my characters sitting on 100k+ gold I have never found gold to be much of a problem, nor have I ever had any problems with succeeding at a "persuade" check.

1h/2h: The only perks you really need are the 20/40/60/80/100 first tier. The power-attack and weapon specialties are nice fluff, but in the end unnecessary

archery: Again, the 20/40/60/80/100 are the only perks you really need. Quick shot and eagle eye are convenient, but again, unnecessary.

Armor skills: Due to the armor cap, here you only need the 20/40 perks, maybe. Once you get blacksmithing/enchanting/alchemy to 100 you can nearly max out either armor rating you choose with no perks at all. Add a couple fortify armor enchants and you'll hit the cap. The only perk really worth considering is the 100 light armor perk that let's you occasionally dodge a blow, but at that point physical damage is little more than a nuisance anyway, so really it is just more fluff.

Alchemy/Enchanting/Smithing: "Must have" perks for almost any build, and really still only one path that you need to take. Alchemy up to benefactor, enchanting up to dual enchants, and daedric smithing regardless of your armor type. On my latest build I took light armor all the way up the right side of the tree, and with +29% smithing gear and +147% smithing potions my hide armor set gives me over 800 armor. A fully improved ebony set gives me around 450 with zero heavy armor perks. Both of those numbers are also with zero fortify armor enchants. Your enchants should be spent entirely on weapon damage or spell cost reduction, depending on your style.

Sneak: Get the damage perks if you want them, you don't need anything else. With a pair of boots enchanted with muffle you can sneak anywhere and everywhere you want.

Magic skills: I can't say much here as I have largely avoided them. I would say that for almost any character getting the 30% magic resist from alteration is very useful. It saves you from having to waste enchant slots or get the lord sign. Conjuration dual summon would be nice if you like watching the game play for you. Restoration/Illusion I haven't really looked that much into. Destruction - don't even bother. As far as the novice/apprentice/adept/ect perks go, why waste perks in those when with full enchanting you can enchant gear to give two schools of your choice 0 mana cost?

With all that put together, what you get is that it becomes very easy to make a thief/warrior/mage/archer because so many of the perks simply don't matter.

Uhm...

nexus is that way -->

Umm.. yeah, but just swinging your sword doesn't make you a master, no matter how long you do it. Anyone can do it but not everyone have the talent to become a master. Perks hone the skill to mastery. I guess you could call it talent. It is not uncommon let's say in any sports that a young talent (with perks but little skill) can give remarkable and better performances compared to a more experienced and consistent but rather average athlete (which in this case has 100 skill but no perks). I can't catch Usain Bolt no matter how much I run and run and run cuz that guy spent all his perks on sprinting and I don't where my perks went. So perks make sense to me.

This game has been so overly hyped and peoples expectations have been soooo over the top that every aspect of the game are overly criticized. I do admit that there are flaws and bugs that should have been fixed before the game was released but all in all a nice game.

It's possible Bethesda didn't want players with 100 skill and no perks to be viable, and so made a conscious decision to limit skill usefulness without the perks to go with it. The reason being they wanted to let every character be unique instead of turning into a god. Personally I love the new system.

It seems having a high skill in certain areas is pretty pointless, raising skill in something isn't making you much better at it but unlocking more perks for you. Bethesda said in their promoton 'then more you do something the better you get at it'. What they failed to mention is the the more you do something, if you want to have any kind of benefit to keep on doing that,then you need to get the perks.

I resent 'buying' perks when i used to get then automatically eg 6x damage when reaching a certain sneak level. Plus the fact the perks are all on a 'tree' meaning you have to unlock lower level rubbish perks or perks you don't need just to get ones that may benefit you. Even then some of the perks are pretty lame eg perk for archery bows will stagger all but the largest opponents 50% of the time. Now 50% is not very much and that is not a particularly great perk. It is supposed to be some sort of great bonus for that category-why would i spend a hard earned perk on something that either wont work everytime or wont work on all enemies i face?

Hopefully something Bethesda can work out a little better in the next game.

^ this. :clap:

The only difference is that now they let you pick a perk to get instead of giving you one you may not want.



50% is a lot when it equates to staggering an enemy every 3 to 4 seconds on average with no added effort. As for getting useless perks, we also get to pick a perk a lot more frequently. Every 8-10 skill level ups rather than every 25 if I remember. So even if half the perks in the skill trees you're investing points in were useless (which they're not) you'd still be getting a "good" perk every 16-20 skill ups.

My belief is that some of the perks are currently too powerful relatively to others and skills levels count for too little. Halving the benefits from the multipler perks should balance it nicely and make some of the other perks more attractive.

As for the guys who wanted automatic perks same as oblivion, they are the guys who want to be Master-of-everything.

Ya I realized this when I was using two-handed weapons

For all the people saying nerfing/buffing
I don't get it... since did bethesda balance things? In all the years of gaming for their games they have NEVER balanced anything. Fallout series to TES... I doubt they will do it here.