200 years, what a plot hole! : Fallout Series Discussion

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:09 pm

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/aftermath/environment/index.html

see!

lol

» Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:59 am

Well, since this subject is still ongoing, I would like to add my .02 caps to it.

Can I just say you forgot the EMP? Yeah albiet an EMP is a chance consequence after a nuclear explosion.. but we're talking about TONS of nukes being fired! Big effing EMP as a result! that destroys almost anything with a circuit/current

EMP is really only effective against solid state components. Tube based technology is mostly immune to the effects. What EMP does is basically fry the tiny, almost microscopic, components of modern technology due to its very low tolerance of transient surges. Vacuum tubes haves a much much higher tolerance of transient surges.

The E1 pulse is the very fast component of nuclear EMP. The E1 component is a very brief but intense electromagnetic field that can quickly induce very high voltages in electrical conductors. The E1 component causes most of its damage by causing electrical breakdown voltages to be exceeded. E1 is the component that can destroy computers and communications equipment and changes too fast for ordinary lightning protectors.

Older, vacuum tube (valve) based equipment is much less vulnerable to EMP than newer solid state equipment; Soviet Cold War–era military aircraft often had avionics based on vacuum tubes due both to limitations in Soviet solid-state capabilities and a belief that the vacuum gear would survive better.

Electrons (ejected from the air by gamma rays) are stopped quickly in normal air for bursts below roughly 10 km (about 6 miles), so they do not get a chance to be significantly deflected by the Earth's magnetic field (since the deflection causes the powerful EMP seen in high altitude bursts).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

So, in order to have such a huge EMP as you imply, it would necessitate most of the bombs having been detonated at 6 miles or more above the surface of the earth.

Now, to cover what someone mentioned about the Commonwealth being some sort of "advanced society" or what have you. If you recall from what Zimmer said, the Commonwealth doesn't sound too much more advanced than the Capitol Wasteland. Only the Institute is spoken of as being somewhat technologically advanced. I believe quite a few people think the Institute is the remnants of M.I.T. I would concur.

» Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:59 am

Everything you have said makes sense but if all that stuff was in the game it would not make an exciting experience for people. But bear in mind that the New Plague, The Great War have all killed off the American population.
In Fallout 3 however it did not seem so realistic as its predecessors as in the Fallout 1&2 much of the population had been repaired and it seemed that the West Coast was a healthy functioning "country". Whereas in Fallout 3 you would imagine a larger faction other than the BoS, like something along the lines of New DC. Also the Enclave is seemingly too weak being that it is the most faction other than NCR and would have already conquered DC and easily could have wiped out the BoS. Since the BoS had limited supply and the majority of them being in the West added on the war between the Enclave and Super Mutants, and the War with the NCR and the Calculator I would have expected them to fail relatively quickly with the dominant factions of the NCR and the Enclave surviving as well as the raiders and other barbaric factions.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:42 pm

I don't think man made structures decay that quickly..

First off, nuclear bombs would have severely weakened the buildings in the targeted areas (if it had not already obliterated them). Secondly, fires AFTER the bombs would either further weaken the buildings or cause most of the remaining ones to collapse. Lastly, 200 years of neglect to repairing the buildings would cause them to collapse (which they would have 100 years ago). Then, plants and what have you would have retaken the city since nobody is stopping their rapid growth.

» Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:42 am

Finally someone with the same thought. I just wish they had said 20-50 years after the bomb drops for all the Fallout 3's. And Countries have sprung up?? NCR, San Franciso, Even the brotherhood probably had the families of the knights in the bunkers. I feel like Fallout 1 & 2 captured the vibe more compared to Fallout 3. The food mistake has no logical answer. But it seems like no one else travels in the wasteland. Or do anything related to surviving. The Technology questions have been answered well as people in the 1950's thought we'd have much better space ships then we do now right? so all our technology would be a lot stronger.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:13 pm

Fallout isn't based on reality, its kinda like a parallel universe, why else would there still be 70's stuff and computers that only have BIOS

» Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:49 am

I could be wrong because I'm not real big into the whole canon thing, but isn't Fallout based on the multi-verse theory? Doesn't it exist in a different universe separate from our own with its own rules for everything from air composition to complex physics? Then again....the canon does say the Earth was bombarded for two straight hours by nukes. Is it unreasonable to think that two hours of constant nuclear bombardment would build up so much radiation that it could scar the land for centuries?

Even if all of this is false, could the nuclear winter have changed the earths weather patterns causing extreme nuclear winter to drastically alter...well....everything?

What I'm trying to say is, over the span of 200 years, there's enough variables that could happen to shape the world into what we see as Fallout.

» Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:23 am

I could be wrong because I'm not real big into the whole canon thing, but isn't Fallout based on the multi-verse theory?

In essence, yes.

Going by what would be a realistic course of events after Fallout 2 is ridiculous, because Fallout 2 is just too far removed from reality in and of itself. Fallout 1&2 wasn't anything like a realistic depiction of a post-apocalyptic world after a nuclear war in 2066, it was a vision of a post-apocalyptic world AS IT MIGHT HAVE LOOKED to people in the fifties, where all the technology was basically limited to vacuum tubes.

» Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:49 am

First off, nuclear bombs would have severely weakened the buildings in the targeted areas (if it had not already obliterated them). Secondly, fires AFTER the bombs would either further weaken the buildings or cause most of the remaining ones to collapse. Lastly, 200 years of neglect to repairing the buildings would cause them to collapse (which they would have 100 years ago). Then, plants and what have you would have retaken the city since nobody is stopping their rapid growth.

Addendum; The Golden Gate Bridge and similar style strucutres would completely fail within 30 years if people didn't consistantly scour them for rust and re-paint them every year. And Chernobyl, after 30 years of being abandoned, will need to be completely leveled once the radiation dies down because no structure there would pass a safety inspection, I guarntee you (a handful of them actually have trees growing in the middle of them). Only a handful of places (such as the desert) are buildings capable of withstanding decades of non-care, because the local environment happens to be great for perserving. But you would be hard-pressed to see anything recognizable as a building after 200 or 300 years if it wasn't built out of stone.

» Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:01 am

Well I don't know how people have been debating this for 6 pages, since there's really no defending the 200 years plot hole no matter how good the game is. It's something that has always bugged me a little bit too but I overlook it and just pretend it's 20-50 years after the war instead.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:13 pm

Well I don't know how people have been debating this for 6 pages, since there's really no defending the 200 years plot hole no matter how good the game is. It's something that has always bugged me a little bit too but I overlook it and just pretend it's 20-50 years after the war instead.

You mean just like the war in 2066 being fought with nuclear devices on the technological level of the Hiroshima bomb, while it's supposedly set a hundred and twenty years later?

It's not ideal to play the realism card when discussing Fallout.

» Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:18 am

Remember though that Fallout is based on a 50s utopia turned dystopia; if the world of tomorrow for the people of the 50s turned into an all out nuclear war as they had feared in the atomic age, Fallout is what we imagine it would've basically turned into. For all we know:
1) The world of tomorrow may not have the Jetsons every-meal pills, but they may have figured out how to preserve food for basically an eternity.
2) Again, 50s thought. Because Hiroshima had only been bombed 5 years prior along with Nagasaki, it appeared as if nuclear detonation meant a permanent loss of life in an irradiated area.
3) Again, 50s thought. Although radiation does have a point at which it'll dissipate (half-life), in the 50s the general public probably thought that all out nuclear war would permanently irradiate the world forever. Hell, the test sites for the Trinity test still linger a bit of radiation to this date even. It may not have been 200 years, but it still does take a while for radiation to completely dissipate, especially with huge amounts.
4) 50s thought, AND fiction. TONS of superheroes of the 50s got their powers from radiation, hell even Superman did. He was powered by the radiation of our yellow sun. It was a thought in the 50s that their could be beneficial mutations from exposure to radiation, including virtual immortality/prolonged life. Now of course the ghouls still had a side effect of having a high necrosis rate of flesh, so although they quickly regenerated cells, it still wasn't fast enough to overcome the necrosis rate, which is why the ghouls are essentially walking zombies.
5) Most life outside of the ghouls were shelled up in some sort of vault, whether it's the vault-tec vaults, or personal ones. Those that didn't get out became ghouls or died, while the normies came from these shelters and began forming small communities. With most knowledge gone by both EMPs (the blast of a nuclear device generates a high electromagnetic pulse as well. The higher the detonation, the wider the EMP travels.) and simply by the geniuses of the time having long since past. Thus society starts back at a pretty primordial rate. However it's clear that the people of Fallout have advanced rather quickly. Rather than displaying Mesopotamian-style society, they represent one more so of the silk road (not quite so hellenistic as it is more so of early Arabian).
6) Again, world of tomorrow. It's amazing that not everything has switched to Laser and Plasma weaponry, but then again this is explained in lore (the microfusion cell was developed rather late, and as such didn't have the time to fully integrate into society as the greatest invention ever, and powering virtually everything). And although every super mutant may have a minigun, assault rifle, or a hunting rifle (based off of Fallout 3, mind you), we don't know if these were left behind right on the streets, or if they may have been raided and dispersed across the wastes from military bases like Fort Constantine.
7) WORLD OF TOMORROW.

Stop looking at the realism, and look at the fiction. This is a fictional world, thus it's not subject to real world laws.

» Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:50 am

I do believe that if a hefty number of nukes were dropped on the planet and 200+ years were to pass, plants would be all over the place.
People seem to be underestimating the life that calls Earth home. Life on this planet is pretty resilient even under harsh conditions and has the ability to adapt and flourish. Sure, there's gonna be some things wiped out of existence, but Darwinism never rests.

Not only would plants be in abundance after such a catastrophic event, but they'd be even tougher than they were before. Evolving by force to soak up what little sunlight the murky clouds let through, they'd most likely evolve in other ways as well. (i.e. how they get nourishment.)

» Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:23 am

I do believe that if a hefty number of nukes were dropped on the planet and 200+ years were to pass, plants would be all over the place.
People seem to be underestimating the life that calls Earth home. Life on this planet is pretty resilient even under harsh conditions and has the ability to adapt and flourish. Sure, there's gonna be some things wiped out of existence, but Darwinism never rests.

Not only would plants be in abundance after such a catastrophic event, but they'd be even tougher than they were before. Evolving by force to soak up what little sunlight the murky clouds let through, they'd most likely evolve in other ways as well. (i.e. how they get nourishment.)

And yet again it has to be said; Fallout never was supposed to be an accurate depiction of a post-apocalyptic world, it was always supposed to be a depiction of how such a world looked in the imagination of people from the 50s!

It's not like Fallout 3 is the only work of fiction in the entire world that depicts a post-apocalyptic world as an irradiated wasteland.

» Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:51 am

It's not like Fallout 3 is the only work of fiction in the entire world that depicts a post-apocalyptic world as an irradiated wasteland.

No, but it also did so only in the places where there was desert to begin with, and had living and breathing trees taking over some places. It would not be a green wonderland there, but the DC area would very probably have been green.

It's not the post-nuclear world "as depicted in the 50s", it's a destroyed 50s sci-fi world.

» Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:07 am

No, but it also did so only in the places where there was desert to begin with, and had living and breathing trees taking over some places. It would not be a green wonderland there, but the DC area would very probably have been green.

So, there are huge mutated scorpions, boxy LASER weapons and absorbing radiation makes you grow an extra arm, and you are still playing the realism-card?

It's not the post-nuclear world "as depicted in the 50s", it's a destroyed 50s sci-fi world.

Oh no, the effects of radiation on the flora and fauna of the irradiated wasteland are very much parts of the general view of what a nuclear holocaust would do to the world.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:25 pm

So, there are huge mutated scorpions, boxy LASER weapons and absorbing radiation makes you grow an extra arm, and you are still playing the realism-card?

I don't, I'm playing the "Fallout 3 was just forced to look like the previous games without giving a damn about time, location, canon and sense" card.

Oh no, the effects of radiation on the flora and fauna of the irradiated wasteland are very much parts of the general view of what a nuclear holocaust would do to the world.

If you mean the giant animals and such, those were results of the side-effects of . The post-nuclear world in 50s pulp was commonly inspired by stories like Wells' The Time Machine, in which the world's population of homo sapiens would usually dwindle, while dangerous beasts roam the planet and a new Stone Age would eventually occur. Combined with more results of testing the effects of radiation on life, this lead to the two extremes - Extreme!? mutation of everything, or extermination of all life through the powers of radiation!?. We pretty much forced to choose only one of those for Fallout.

» Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:39 am

First, let me say that I love Fallout 3. It has given me many hours of fun and enjoyment. But like all geeks I can't help but pick apart the plausibility (or lack thereof) of some of my favorite fictional entertainment. There comes a point at which the willing suspension of disbelief gives out and you have to point out the obvious absurdities of what you're looking at no matter how fictitious it is supposed to be. Particularly if it tries to sell itself as realistic, or at least plausible. So it is that below I will list some of the most glaring problems I can think of that arise simply because of the condition of the world in the game 200 years after the bombs fell. I might find it easier to swallow if the game took place 50 years after the bombs fell, but not 200! Since I'm only human I'm bound to miss a few things so please feel free to add the things that stand out to you the most.

1) Prepackaged prewar foods
It's been 200 years since the last bottle of Nuka Cola was bottled, the last box of Sugar Bombs was packaged, and the last carton of Blamo! Mac and Cheese was shipped out. Yet somehow not only are these prepackaged prewar foods and drinks still around in great abundance, having somehow avoided hungry scroungers like the Lone Wanderer by hiding in plain sight for centuries, but they are also still edible! I'm sorry people, but even Spam has an expiration date. Don't believe me; check the bottom of the can next time you're in the grocery store. Even IF the preservatives in the food keep your Cram from rotting and boll weevil eggs from hatching in your Sugar Bombs, do you really think those Dandy Boy Apples aren't fossilized by now after sitting around for 200 years? Bear in mind, I'm not talking about the squirrel on a stick or the brahman steak or other such confections as can be made in the wasteland. I'm only talking about the prepackaged food and drink that nobody has produced since the bombs fell and has apparently been sitting around untouched just waiting for your character to come around and feast on them. I mean really. You think your Coka Cola is flat after sitting around in the open for a day or so? Your character is running around chugging sodas that have been sitting around in the open for literally hundreds of years! I would think that's ANYTHING but refreshing! And you're surprised that one of the ingredients for the Nuka Grenade are 200 year old Nuka Cola Quantums!

2) All the foliage is dead
For this argument I would like to point out our good old friend, Chernobyl. They had a nuclear meltdown at their power plant over 20 years ago. The gamma radiation killed off and sterilized everything for miles around. It's only been about 20 years and all the vegetation has grown back, overtaking the buildings people once occupied. I would think that after 200 years the trees will have recovered enough to where there would be insane forestation. Ah, but green trees don't look as desolate and hopeless as a barren wasteland, and that just kills the mood. Well, if they never came back, then all the trees we see in the game must be petrified.

3) Everything is still irradiated
Once again, Chernobyl. If the ground and water were still so irradiated that you could get radiation poisoning from it then do you really think that the plants and animals would have come back in force like they have? After just 20 years? Radiation doesn't sit around forever, it does dissipate.

4) Ghouls
Have you SEEN real people who were exposed to as much radiation as the ghouls apparently were!? Not only do they look nothing like that, but even if they did, that much damage caused by radiation would not make you immortal! As a matter of fact you would die much quicker than an ordinary human would. You would have hours, maybe days, not hundreds of years like these jokers. Oh, and the Chinese ghouls still fighting a war that ended 200 years ago?.HILARIOUS! Seriously, just ditch the rotting bodies; pick an old building, AND HAUNT IT ALREADY!

5) Society at large has yet to move on
Seriously, guys, it's been 200 years, more than enough time for new countries to form. Not just city-states, countries. Let's look at the last quasi-apocalyptic event that happened to humanity which we survived: the fall of the Roman Empire. No, really, people back then thought that the world was coming to an end. How long did it take for new countries to spring up from the corpse of the Roman Empire? Yeah.

Oh, and the fact that individual people have yet to get over the fact that the US is gone is absurd. It's been 200 years, none of these people reminiscing about the glory days of America were even alive back then! Take for example the psycho cannibal happy families in Andale. In one of your conversations with them one of them says something to the effect of, "I think it's every American's God-given right to vote for their favorite Republican candidate! I sure didn't vote for no commie liberal, no sir!" What the hell is he talking about?!?!?! The US as we know it ended at least 160 years before this nut job was born! What the frakk does he know about liberals and conservatives, Republicans and Democrats? What does he know about what their party lines were and what their rivalries where about? Just to put things in perspective for you let's look back 200 year ago from today to the year 1810. How many of you know that the two major parties back then were the Democrats and the Wigs? No the Wigs were not the precursors to the Republicans, they were a different political party with a different party line and agenda all together. And who among you actually remembers the Wigs party lines, policies, or even what their feuds with the Democrats where about? Better yet how many of you CARE? It's been 200 years and the Wigs are no longer relevant. Ergo, what is a closet cannibal doing touting the party line of a political party that ceased to exist 200 years ago?
Furthermore, "President" John Henry Eden and his talk about baseball just kills me. Seriously? Seriously. I don't care what he really is; nobody has played baseball in 200 years. I didn't even know that the team known as the Capital Congressmen existed until I played this game. How would anyone who lives 200 years after the team ceases to exist know or care? Does anybody play anymore? Does anyone even remember how to play? Why oh why would you think that describing a sport that has been dead for centuries would inspire patriotism? Wait don't answer that! I know the answer and it is still absurd. I mean, really, would you try to inspire patriotism in Mexicans by talking to them about those crazy death sports that the Meso Americans played? I'm sure your average Mexican citizen would call you loco if you promised to bring those sports back as a way of inspiring hope in them. I know, bad anology. You don't kill the losing team in baseball, but you get my point.

And another thing, why are people still living in old, half destroyed houses after 200 years? People build, people repair, people rebuild. Societies do not set up in half destroyed ruins, sleeping on pre Armageddon beds for the rest of their existence. Megaton was neat, I liked it, but places like Canterbury Commons, Paradise Falls, and a whole bunch of other cities are just absurd. It's been 200 years, move on already!

6) Prewar technology and weapons still work
The idea that machines never age and they can just last forever is an old, flawed, faulty science fiction idea from the 70s. Machines may not "age" like people do, but parts break over time with regular use, mineral deposits build up on guns that render then useless, circuits wear down, and many metals do rust. Time wears down all things, be it mountain or machine. Have any of you tried to use a 200 year old weapon? I mean really just picked up a 200 year old weapon and tried to kill something with it? Or how about a 200 year old gun? Without even servicing it or refurbishing it, have you tried to load and shoot it? No, you wouldn't even think about doing that because you don't know what might happen. Forget Indiana Jones, really old technology build by old civilizations does not keep working after hundreds or even thousands of years. Especially if it is a complex piece of machinery, I don't care who built it. Sure a sun dial may still work, good as new no matter how long it has been around, but do you really think you can just pick up a bazooka that was used in World War 1 and fire it off as though it was brand new if it had been sitting in a basemant all this time without proper maintenance or upkeep? How about if it was sitting in that basemant for 200 years? Would you really trust that same bazooka to work in the year 2120? What about the ammo? Do you honestly think those 200 year-old rockets will work at all, let alone work like they were made yesterday? The Brotherhood of Steel maintaining and up keeping the technology that they guard is one thing. Finding a Chinese assault rifle in a cave, picking it up, and immediately using it to fill raiders with lead is another thing entirely.
Don't even get me started on the electrically activated doors and robots still working like new after 200 years. Like I said, parts break over time with regular use.

7 Electronics and lights still function
The fact that 200 year old light bulbs still work is extremely laughable, I don't care what type of bulb they are. I shouldn't have to explain why. How do I know that the bulbs are 200 years old? Think about it; have you seen a fully functional and productive manufacturing plant of ANY kind in the Wasteland? Who's building these new light bulbs? I also love these computers in old abandoned buildings that still turn on when you push the power button and operate like normal. Forget the fact that these things are primitive by our standards today, circuits still wear down given long enough.

I've got an even better question for all of you. Where is the electricity coming from? Last I checked all the power plants are in disuse, abandoned, and filled with feral ghouls. Where is the electricity coming from? Never mind the fact that a reactor has to be completely replaced with brand spanking new parts before it even gets close to the 200 year mark or it breaks down utterly. Parts break over time with regular use. Who is supplying power to a grid that has been in disrepair for a couple of centuries? And how does any of it still work. Do you know how much maintenance it takes to keep those grids working in the here and now when they haven't been hit with nukes? It is insanely difficult. And you think that the power plants will just keep on running 200 years after they've been abandoned? Yeah right.

And what about the generators that Tenpenny Tower, the Citadel, and other such places run on? Last I checked generators run on gasoline, and where does gasoline come from when society collapses? Nowhere, that's where. And don't tell me it's a nuclear generator. Let me explain to you the whole point of a nuclear reactor: it's to boil water. I'm not kidding you. The reactor superheats the water, and then super pressurized super hot steam is channeled through pipes to turn a turbine like a water mill, which generates electricity. Where is the water in these generators? Where is the cooling tower to re-condense the water to be boiled again? I'm telling you, these generators run on pixie dust! Pixie dust solves everything!

Anyway, that's it for me. If you guys have anything that you would like to add or comment on, you know what to do. And to those of you who want to tell me, "It's only fiction, shut up and enjoy the game," I say to you, I have/do enjoy the game, and now I'm enjoying geeking out over its implausibilities. Enjoy!

P.S. edit
To all those who claim that there is no plant life in the world of Fallout, I would like to point out a few quid pro quos.

1) Harold. If you know what I'm talking about then you know what I mean. I tried not to spoil anything concerning "President" Eden, and I'm not going to do it for Harold.

2) Muitfruit. What is it and where does it come from?

3) Point Look out. The bombs didn't fall there and it's a bit of a swamp. And there is a weird fruit that is grown there.

4) In the first Fallout game the first town I ran into was a farming town. That's right, a FARM town. They were growing crops. With a high enough science skill you could advise them on crop rotation. Please, nobody be stupid and tell me that crops don't count. Hey, anyone remember meeting Tandy? Don't ask me why I remember.

1) The fact that you can still find food and stuff... well i don't know what to say. Well i found some products like a dozen of eggs which somehow aren't eaten or rotten etc., but they are good if you eat them uncooked.

2) Well I think that the bomb that fell down... burnt everything but even after that things will grow. Let's say that everything burnt down.... Why is there grass????!!

3) The radiation is used because... I guess it was a '50 speculation. But the radiation in the White House it's absurd. Nothing else to comment.

4) Where did you find Chinese ghouls that are still fighting i would loooove to laugh about it! Nobody else know what's going to happen to a human if you expose him to such big quantities of radiation. But I guess if that would be possible he will burn a whole through the Earth and be as bright as the sun.

5) Yeah... there should be a city if all those people were together. but i don't know. There are more super Mutants then humans in the wastes.

Politics mean s**** to mean.

6) Man the Chinese assault rifle is basically a copy of the ak 74 and the ak 74 is the version of ak 47 but with a smaller round(5.56mm don't know if it's NATO round:D). I heard a story of a marine in Vietnam war that he found a dead Vietnamese over his ak. He was in putrefaction. The marine pushed the corpse away took his ak and shoot a few rounds. The ak was working in perfect conditions. (after this propaganda, i am sure i ain't a commie) i don't know what to say about the other weapons. In the National guard depot bunker you can find perfect condition weapons. If a weapon has the perfect conditions (right humidity , no usage) where it is, i guess it still might work. But a gun find in a cave... no way.

7) speculation no. 1 ghouls are hired to maintain them (what?)
speculation no. 2 The radiation made the light bulbs glow (what??)

Ps. those through are called punga. although the water is irradiated.... when you eat one of them they decrease it. The tree man.. i don't know. This is something out off the worst sci fi movie. seeing the guys heart in a cave.. i was ....

that's all i have to say.

» Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:23 am

The worst thing about all of this is Bethesda's writers could've headed all of this complaining about the intact nature of the city, the svcky human settlements, the scarcity of vegetation, the need for radiation-free water, the abundance of pre-war loot etc with a few lines of dialogue somewhere to the effect of "the Chinese bombed DC with high-rad low-explosive weapons and humans have only been able to survive here again in the last couple of decades".

They really missed a trick there.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:30 pm

First, let me say that I love Fallout 3. It has given me many hours of fun and enjoyment. But like all geeks I can't help but pick apart the plausibility (or lack thereof) of some of my favorite fictional entertainment. There comes a point at which the willing suspension of disbelief gives out and you have to point out the obvious absurdities of what you're looking at no matter how fictitious it is supposed to be. Particularly if it tries to sell itself as realistic, or at least plausible. So it is that below I will list some of the most glaring problems I can think of that arise simply because of the condition of the world in the game 200 years after the bombs fell. I might find it easier to swallow if the game took place 50 years after the bombs fell, but not 200! Since I'm only human I'm bound to miss a few things so please feel free to add the things that stand out to you the most.

1) Prepackaged prewar foods
It's been 200 years since the last bottle of Nuka Cola was bottled, the last box of Sugar Bombs was packaged, and the last carton of Blamo! Mac and Cheese was shipped out. Yet somehow not only are these prepackaged prewar foods and drinks still around in great abundance, having somehow avoided hungry scroungers like the Lone Wanderer by hiding in plain sight for centuries, but they are also still edible! I'm sorry people, but even Spam has an expiration date. Don't believe me; check the bottom of the can next time you're in the grocery store. Even IF the preservatives in the food keep your Cram from rotting and boll weevil eggs from hatching in your Sugar Bombs, do you really think those Dandy Boy Apples aren't fossilized by now after sitting around for 200 years? Bear in mind, I'm not talking about the squirrel on a stick or the brahman steak or other such confections as can be made in the wasteland. I'm only talking about the prepackaged food and drink that nobody has produced since the bombs fell and has apparently been sitting around untouched just waiting for your character to come around and feast on them. I mean really. You think your Coka Cola is flat after sitting around in the open for a day or so? Your character is running around chugging sodas that have been sitting around in the open for literally hundreds of years! I would think that's ANYTHING but refreshing! And you're surprised that one of the ingredients for the Nuka Grenade are 200 year old Nuka Cola Quantums!
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Response: Well, this is going to be referred to often so I will say it here, its 67 years after our time, and technology enhanced fast... What if they had better packaging?
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2) All the foliage is dead
For this argument I would like to point out our good old friend, Chernobyl. They had a nuclear meltdown at their power plant over 20 years ago. The gamma radiation killed off and sterilized everything for miles around. It's only been about 20 years and all the vegetation has grown back, overtaking the buildings people once occupied. I would think that after 200 years the trees will have recovered enough to where there would be insane forestation. Ah, but green trees don't look as desolate and hopeless as a barren wasteland, and that just kills the mood. Well, if they never came back, then all the trees we see in the game must be petrified.
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Response: Well, once again they had much better technology and a much better grasp on nuclear power, it is very plausible that the nukes they made contained an immense amount of radiation that basically sterilized everything. EVERYTHING. In Chernobyl there was foliage past the damaged areas, at which it could grow back into. In fallout, everything is dead, straight up dead. There is nothing to grow back from its just all dead.
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3) Everything is still irradiated
Once again, Chernobyl. If the ground and water were still so irradiated that you could get radiation poisoning from it then do you really think that the plants and animals would have come back in force like they have? After just 20 years? Radiation doesn't sit around forever, it does dissipate.
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Response: Back to what I had said, the idea of nuclear power in our time is still developping greatly, in 67 years we will probably be very good with it due to the extensive research, yet in fallout 3 it is said that the Universe advanced much faster being that they had much better technology and they understood it much better, so that the Nuclear power is immense. As a matter of fact, it is quite possible that the little amount of radiation right now in comparison as to when the bomb droppings were just finished is 1/1000 of what it was, and that it is just dissapearing now and making things much more livable, notice how there are maybe 400 people in the entire game. That is not much, that isnt civilization that is a group of people that survived.
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4) Ghouls
Have you SEEN real people who were exposed to as much radiation as the ghouls apparently were!? Not only do they look nothing like that, but even if they did, that much damage caused by radiation would not make you immortal! As a matter of fact you would die much quicker than an ordinary human would. You would have hours, maybe days, not hundreds of years like these jokers. Oh, and the Chinese ghouls still fighting a war that ended 200 years ago?.HILARIOUS! Seriously, just ditch the rotting bodies; pick an old building, AND HAUNT IT ALREADY!
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Response: This is one of the many examples in the game where you see that gamesas uses radiation as means to make anything possible, same as saying its a "fantasy" game so that magic and spells is possible. Molecular Genes is a vast world of possibilities, everything on earth, all those gene combinations wouldn't even make up 1 percent, of 1 percent, of the possibilities. So basically its true that anything is possible, though for it to happen like this is just as likely as everything else, yet still almost impossibly unlikely. The amount of stable gene possibilities is not the majority gene combinations, unstable gene combinations are the majority, as in they dont work. In this sense it is very unlikely that there would be so much change due to radiation yet was still stable, which explains the minor population of the wasteland
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5) Society at large has yet to move on
Seriously, guys, it's been 200 years, more than enough time for new countries to form. Not just city-states, countries. Let's look at the last quasi-apocalyptic event that happened to humanity which we survived: the fall of the Roman Empire. No, really, people back then thought that the world was coming to an end. How long did it take for new countries to spring up from the corpse of the Roman Empire? Yeah.
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Response: It has been 200 years, though it is unclear as to whether or not every country was affected by the war at all. If so, why would any country seek to reclaim a barren radiation filled wasteland like America? Also, radiation is a powerful thing and we have nearly no idea what we can do against it, if you look at how many people there are in the wasteland its not suprising, there isnt even enough people in the entire wasteland for all of them combined to be considered a group worthy of regarding as a population.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Oh, and the fact that individual people have yet to get over the fact that the US is gone is absurd. It's been 200 years, none of these people reminiscing about the glory days of America were even alive back then! Take for example the psycho cannibal happy families in Andale. In one of your conversations with them one of them says something to the effect of, "I think it's every American's God-given right to vote for their favorite Republican candidate! I sure didn't vote for no commie liberal, no sir!" What the hell is he talking about?!?!?! The US as we know it ended at least 160 years before this nut job was born! What the frakk does he know about liberals and conservatives, Republicans and Democrats? What does he know about what their party lines were and what their rivalries where about? Just to put things in perspective for you let's look back 200 year ago from today to the year 1810. How many of you know that the two major parties back then were the Democrats and the Wigs? No the Wigs were not the precursors to the Republicans, they were a different political party with a different party line and agenda all together. And who among you actually remembers the Wigs party lines, policies, or even what their feuds with the Democrats where about? Better yet how many of you CARE? It's been 200 years and the Wigs are no longer relevant. Ergo, what is a closet cannibal doing touting the party line of a political party that ceased to exist 200 years ago?
Furthermore, "President" John Henry Eden and his talk about baseball just kills me. Seriously? Seriously. I don't care what he really is; nobody has played baseball in 200 years. I didn't even know that the team known as the Capital Congressmen existed until I played this game. How would anyone who lives 200 years after the team ceases to exist know or care? Does anybody play anymore? Does anyone even remember how to play? Why oh why would you think that describing a sport that has been dead for centuries would inspire patriotism? Wait don't answer that! I know the answer and it is still absurd. I mean, really, would you try to inspire patriotism in Mexicans by talking to them about those crazy death sports that the Meso Americans played? I'm sure your average Mexican citizen would call you loco if you promised to bring those sports back as a way of inspiring hope in them. I know, bad anology. You don't kill the losing team in baseball, but you get my point.
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Response: Well, lets consider the fact that nothing has changed, so that the stories passed on of the gold old days hasnt changed, everyone knows about it because thats all there is to know, so they spread it. Spread what it was, America's population didnt just randomly die and then a bunch of unaware new species of humans popped up and inhabited the country, the people survived, and THEY knew, and I don't know about you but I would feel it is my duty to keep the history alive, such as Abraham Washington
Also, the Vaults supposedly played baseball, I.E. the GOAT test, why would they have a question about sports that no one played or knew about?
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And another thing, why are people still living in old, half destroyed houses after 200 years? People build, people repair, people rebuild. Societies do not set up in half destroyed ruins, sleeping on pre Armageddon beds for the rest of their existence. Megaton was neat, I liked it, but places like Canterbury Commons, Paradise Falls, and a whole bunch of other cities are just absurd. It's been 200 years, move on already!
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Ok, well.... With what? there isnt a country full of commerce where everyone can just order repair supplies, why spend your time trying to build new houses when there are other buildings there that you can deal with for now. People are lazy my friend, even today. People are run by the money these days, but back then who is gonna pay that much money for a house when the person you are asking could just kill you and take it all? Leave well enough alone is what I say, and if there are any remnants of the houses then do your best to live in them

6) Prewar technology and weapons still work
The idea that machines never age and they can just last forever is an old, flawed, faulty science fiction idea from the 70s. Machines may not "age" like people do, but parts break over time with regular use, mineral deposits build up on guns that render then useless, circuits wear down, and many metals do rust. Time wears down all things, be it mountain or machine. Have any of you tried to use a 200 year old weapon? I mean really just picked up a 200 year old weapon and tried to kill something with it? Or how about a 200 year old gun? Without even servicing it or refurbishing it, have you tried to load and shoot it? No, you wouldn't even think about doing that because you don't know what might happen. Forget Indiana Jones, really old technology build by old civilizations does not keep working after hundreds or even thousands of years. Especially if it is a complex piece of machinery, I don't care who built it. Sure a sun dial may still work, good as new no matter how long it has been around, but do you really think you can just pick up a bazooka that was used in World War 1 and fire it off as though it was brand new if it had been sitting in a basemant all this time without proper maintenance or upkeep? How about if it was sitting in that basemant for 200 years? Would you really trust that same bazooka to work in the year 2120? What about the ammo? Do you honestly think those 200 year-old rockets will work at all, let alone work like they were made yesterday? The Brotherhood of Steel maintaining and up keeping the technology that they guard is one thing. Finding a Chinese assault rifle in a cave, picking it up, and immediately using it to fill raiders with lead is another thing entirely.
Don't even get me started on the electrically activated doors and robots still working like new after 200 years. Like I said, parts break over time with regular use.
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Dont Imagine fallout 3 as a reasonable place, Fallout is the projection of the ideas people had in the sixties, just like you said "old, flawed, faulty science fiction idea from the 70s"
Also, it is very likely that they had created very advanced guns that dont break as much.
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7 Electronics and lights still function
The fact that 200 year old light bulbs still work is extremely laughable, I don't care what type of bulb they are. I shouldn't have to explain why. How do I know that the bulbs are 200 years old? Think about it; have you seen a fully functional and productive manufacturing plant of ANY kind in the Wasteland? Who's building these new light bulbs? I also love these computers in old abandoned buildings that still turn on when you push the power button and operate like normal. Forget the fact that these things are primitive by our standards today, circuits still wear down given long enough.

I've got an even better question for all of you. Where is the electricity coming from? Last I checked all the power plants are in disuse, abandoned, and filled with feral ghouls. Where is the electricity coming from? Never mind the fact that a reactor has to be completely replaced with brand spanking new parts before it even gets close to the 200 year mark or it breaks down utterly. Parts break over time with regular use. Who is supplying power to a grid that has been in disrepair for a couple of centuries? And how does any of it still work. Do you know how much maintenance it takes to keep those grids working in the here and now when they haven't been hit with nukes? It is insanely difficult. And you think that the power plants will just keep on running 200 years after they've been abandoned? Yeah right.
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Im really tired of responding so im going to make my answers simpler.. Ill explain later..
There is not much eletricity needed for the minor things they do today, all it takes is one working Nuclear Generator somewhere, and all that is easily possible.
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And what about the generators that Tenpenny Tower, the Citadel, and other such places run on? Last I checked generators run on gasoline, and where does gasoline come from when society collapses? Nowhere, that's where. And don't tell me it's a nuclear generator. Let me explain to you the whole point of a nuclear reactor: it's to boil water. I'm not kidding you. The reactor superheats the water, and then super pressurized super hot steam is channeled through pipes to turn a turbine like a water mill, which generates electricity. Where is the water in these generators? Where is the cooling tower to re-condense the water to be boiled again? I'm telling you, these generators run on pixie dust! Pixie dust solves everything!
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Fallout is its own universe, and things are different. They use the fictional 60s idea of Nuclear Power, its not in any way suppose to be reasonable in our Universe.
______________________

Anyway, that's it for me. If you guys have anything that you would like to add or comment on, you know what to do. And to those of you who want to tell me, "It's only fiction, shut up and enjoy the game," I say to you, I have/do enjoy the game, and now I'm enjoying geeking out over its implausibilities. Enjoy!

P.S. edit
To all those who claim that there is no plant life in the world of Fallout, I would like to point out a few quid pro quos.

1) Harold. If you know what I'm talking about then you know what I mean. I tried not to spoil anything concerning "President" Eden, and I'm not going to do it for Harold.

2) Muitfruit. What is it and where does it come from?

3) Point Look out. The bombs didn't fall there and it's a bit of a swamp. And there is a weird fruit that is grown there.

4) In the first Fallout game the first town I ran into was a farming town. That's right, a FARM town. They were growing crops. With a high enough science skill you could advise them on crop rotation. Please, nobody be stupid and tell me that crops don't count. Hey, anyone remember meeting Tandy? Don't ask me why I remember.

Ok, its all in the quotes.

» Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:14 am

First, let me say that I love Fallout 3. It has given me many hours of fun and enjoyment. But like all geeks I can't help but pick apart the plausibility (or lack thereof) of some of my favorite fictional entertainment. There comes a point at which the willing suspension of disbelief gives out and you have to point out the obvious absurdities of what you're looking at no matter how fictitious it is supposed to be. Particularly if it tries to sell itself as realistic, or at least plausible. So it is that below I will list some of the most glaring problems I can think of that arise simply because of the condition of the world in the game 200 years after the bombs fell. I might find it easier to swallow if the game took place 50 years after the bombs fell, but not 200! Since I'm only human I'm bound to miss a few things so please feel free to add the things that stand out to you the most.

1) Prepackaged prewar foods
It's been 200 years since the last bottle of Nuka Cola was bottled, the last box of Sugar Bombs was packaged, and the last carton of Blamo! Mac and Cheese was shipped out. Yet somehow not only are these prepackaged prewar foods and drinks still around in great abundance, having somehow avoided hungry scroungers like the Lone Wanderer by hiding in plain sight for centuries, but they are also still edible! I'm sorry people, but even Spam has an expiration date. Don't believe me; check the bottom of the can next time you're in the grocery store. Even IF the preservatives in the food keep your Cram from rotting and boll weevil eggs from hatching in your Sugar Bombs, do you really think those Dandy Boy Apples aren't fossilized by now after sitting around for 200 years? Bear in mind, I'm not talking about the squirrel on a stick or the brahman steak or other such confections as can be made in the wasteland. I'm only talking about the prepackaged food and drink that nobody has produced since the bombs fell and has apparently been sitting around untouched just waiting for your character to come around and feast on them. I mean really. You think your Coka Cola is flat after sitting around in the open for a day or so? Your character is running around chugging sodas that have been sitting around in the open for literally hundreds of years! I would think that's ANYTHING but refreshing! And you're surprised that one of the ingredients for the Nuka Grenade are 200 year old Nuka Cola Quantums!

2) All the foliage is dead
For this argument I would like to point out our good old friend, Chernobyl. They had a nuclear meltdown at their power plant over 20 years ago. The gamma radiation killed off and sterilized everything for miles around. It's only been about 20 years and all the vegetation has grown back, overtaking the buildings people once occupied. I would think that after 200 years the trees will have recovered enough to where there would be insane forestation. Ah, but green trees don't look as desolate and hopeless as a barren wasteland, and that just kills the mood. Well, if they never came back, then all the trees we see in the game must be petrified.

3) Everything is still irradiated
Once again, Chernobyl. If the ground and water were still so irradiated that you could get radiation poisoning from it then do you really think that the plants and animals would have come back in force like they have? After just 20 years? Radiation doesn't sit around forever, it does dissipate.

4) Ghouls
Have you SEEN real people who were exposed to as much radiation as the ghouls apparently were!? Not only do they look nothing like that, but even if they did, that much damage caused by radiation would not make you immortal! As a matter of fact you would die much quicker than an ordinary human would. You would have hours, maybe days, not hundreds of years like these jokers. Oh, and the Chinese ghouls still fighting a war that ended 200 years ago?.HILARIOUS! Seriously, just ditch the rotting bodies; pick an old building, AND HAUNT IT ALREADY!

5) Society at large has yet to move on
Seriously, guys, it's been 200 years, more than enough time for new countries to form. Not just city-states, countries. Let's look at the last quasi-apocalyptic event that happened to humanity which we survived: the fall of the Roman Empire. No, really, people back then thought that the world was coming to an end. How long did it take for new countries to spring up from the corpse of the Roman Empire? Yeah.

Oh, and the fact that individual people have yet to get over the fact that the US is gone is absurd. It's been 200 years, none of these people reminiscing about the glory days of America were even alive back then! Take for example the psycho cannibal happy families in Andale. In one of your conversations with them one of them says something to the effect of, "I think it's every American's God-given right to vote for their favorite Republican candidate! I sure didn't vote for no commie liberal, no sir!" What the hell is he talking about?!?!?! The US as we know it ended at least 160 years before this nut job was born! What the frakk does he know about liberals and conservatives, Republicans and Democrats? What does he know about what their party lines were and what their rivalries where about? Just to put things in perspective for you let's look back 200 year ago from today to the year 1810. How many of you know that the two major parties back then were the Democrats and the Wigs? No the Wigs were not the precursors to the Republicans, they were a different political party with a different party line and agenda all together. And who among you actually remembers the Wigs party lines, policies, or even what their feuds with the Democrats where about? Better yet how many of you CARE? It's been 200 years and the Wigs are no longer relevant. Ergo, what is a closet cannibal doing touting the party line of a political party that ceased to exist 200 years ago?
Furthermore, "President" John Henry Eden and his talk about baseball just kills me. Seriously? Seriously. I don't care what he really is; nobody has played baseball in 200 years. I didn't even know that the team known as the Capital Congressmen existed until I played this game. How would anyone who lives 200 years after the team ceases to exist know or care? Does anybody play anymore? Does anyone even remember how to play? Why oh why would you think that describing a sport that has been dead for centuries would inspire patriotism? Wait don't answer that! I know the answer and it is still absurd. I mean, really, would you try to inspire patriotism in Mexicans by talking to them about those crazy death sports that the Meso Americans played? I'm sure your average Mexican citizen would call you loco if you promised to bring those sports back as a way of inspiring hope in them. I know, bad anology. You don't kill the losing team in baseball, but you get my point.

And another thing, why are people still living in old, half destroyed houses after 200 years? People build, people repair, people rebuild. Societies do not set up in half destroyed ruins, sleeping on pre Armageddon beds for the rest of their existence. Megaton was neat, I liked it, but places like Canterbury Commons, Paradise Falls, and a whole bunch of other cities are just absurd. It's been 200 years, move on already!

6) Prewar technology and weapons still work
The idea that machines never age and they can just last forever is an old, flawed, faulty science fiction idea from the 70s. Machines may not "age" like people do, but parts break over time with regular use, mineral deposits build up on guns that render then useless, circuits wear down, and many metals do rust. Time wears down all things, be it mountain or machine. Have any of you tried to use a 200 year old weapon? I mean really just picked up a 200 year old weapon and tried to kill something with it? Or how about a 200 year old gun? Without even servicing it or refurbishing it, have you tried to load and shoot it? No, you wouldn't even think about doing that because you don't know what might happen. Forget Indiana Jones, really old technology build by old civilizations does not keep working after hundreds or even thousands of years. Especially if it is a complex piece of machinery, I don't care who built it. Sure a sun dial may still work, good as new no matter how long it has been around, but do you really think you can just pick up a bazooka that was used in World War 1 and fire it off as though it was brand new if it had been sitting in a basemant all this time without proper maintenance or upkeep? How about if it was sitting in that basemant for 200 years? Would you really trust that same bazooka to work in the year 2120? What about the ammo? Do you honestly think those 200 year-old rockets will work at all, let alone work like they were made yesterday? The Brotherhood of Steel maintaining and up keeping the technology that they guard is one thing. Finding a Chinese assault rifle in a cave, picking it up, and immediately using it to fill raiders with lead is another thing entirely.
Don't even get me started on the electrically activated doors and robots still working like new after 200 years. Like I said, parts break over time with regular use.

7 Electronics and lights still function
The fact that 200 year old light bulbs still work is extremely laughable, I don't care what type of bulb they are. I shouldn't have to explain why. How do I know that the bulbs are 200 years old? Think about it; have you seen a fully functional and productive manufacturing plant of ANY kind in the Wasteland? Who's building these new light bulbs? I also love these computers in old abandoned buildings that still turn on when you push the power button and operate like normal. Forget the fact that these things are primitive by our standards today, circuits still wear down given long enough.

I've got an even better question for all of you. Where is the electricity coming from? Last I checked all the power plants are in disuse, abandoned, and filled with feral ghouls. Where is the electricity coming from? Never mind the fact that a reactor has to be completely replaced with brand spanking new parts before it even gets close to the 200 year mark or it breaks down utterly. Parts break over time with regular use. Who is supplying power to a grid that has been in disrepair for a couple of centuries? And how does any of it still work. Do you know how much maintenance it takes to keep those grids working in the here and now when they haven't been hit with nukes? It is insanely difficult. And you think that the power plants will just keep on running 200 years after they've been abandoned? Yeah right.

And what about the generators that Tenpenny Tower, the Citadel, and other such places run on? Last I checked generators run on gasoline, and where does gasoline come from when society collapses? Nowhere, that's where. And don't tell me it's a nuclear generator. Let me explain to you the whole point of a nuclear reactor: it's to boil water. I'm not kidding you. The reactor superheats the water, and then super pressurized super hot steam is channeled through pipes to turn a turbine like a water mill, which generates electricity. Where is the water in these generators? Where is the cooling tower to re-condense the water to be boiled again? I'm telling you, these generators run on pixie dust! Pixie dust solves everything!

Anyway, that's it for me. If you guys have anything that you would like to add or comment on, you know what to do. And to those of you who want to tell me, "It's only fiction, shut up and enjoy the game," I say to you, I have/do enjoy the game, and now I'm enjoying geeking out over its implausibilities. Enjoy!

P.S. edit
To all those who claim that there is no plant life in the world of Fallout, I would like to point out a few quid pro quos.

1) Harold. If you know what I'm talking about then you know what I mean. I tried not to spoil anything concerning "President" Eden, and I'm not going to do it for Harold.

2) Muitfruit. What is it and where does it come from?

3) Point Look out. The bombs didn't fall there and it's a bit of a swamp. And there is a weird fruit that is grown there.

4) In the first Fallout game the first town I ran into was a farming town. That's right, a FARM town. They were growing crops. With a high enough science skill you could advise them on crop rotation. Please, nobody be stupid and tell me that crops don't count. Hey, anyone remember meeting Tandy? Don't ask me why I remember.

A all the food had radition in it. B super mutants and all the other stuff mean anything to you when it comes to scavanging? C ghouls are what the 50s and 60s science thought getting iradiated ment. D full scale nuclear holocaust with ICBMs just seems a bit bigger than a reactor meltdown. E im pretty sure with raiders super mutants death claws and everything else growing plants would be REALLY HARD!

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:09 pm

Isn't this topic ancient?

Edit: That it is. Anyway: It's a game and for the game to work one has to bend logic some. Also it's based on 50's "science"

» Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:28 am

Isn't this topic ancient?

Edit: That it is. Anyway: It's a game and for the game to work one has to bend logic some. Also it's based on 50's "science"

my point exaclty.

» Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:26 am

#5 is the most interesting. The fall of the Roman Empire marked the end of civilized existence back then, but civilization recovered quickly.

» Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:56 am

Have You Seen Fallout 1 & 2? without Bethesda, Nobody would play fallout. This one is so much better! In Fallout 1&2, its a click and drag game. It was probably sold at the dollar store! Fallout 3 is a 1 persn shooter with amazing graphics and awesome gameplay! its probably run by a 64 bit system at the least, while i bet fallout 1 and 2 went to 16 bit. max

fallout 1 and 2 were and are qaulity classics. have you ever played them? also there still selling for 10 dollars apeice. back then they were selling for like 20 dollars or somthing idk i was born the year they were made so idk how much games used to be. but i admit that bethesda did reboot the series and i thank them for it its because of them i realized how good the series is, now if you havent played all of them shut the hell up.