» Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:32 am First, let me say that I love Fallout 3. It has given me many hours of fun and enjoyment. But like all geeks I can't help but pick apart the plausibility (or lack thereof) of some of my favorite fictional entertainment. There comes a point at which the willing suspension of disbelief gives out and you have to point out the obvious absurdities of what you're looking at no matter how fictitious it is supposed to be. Particularly if it tries to sell itself as realistic, or at least plausible. So it is that below I will list some of the most glaring problems I can think of that arise simply because of the condition of the world in the game 200 years after the bombs fell. I might find it easier to swallow if the game took place 50 years after the bombs fell, but not 200! Since I'm only human I'm bound to miss a few things so please feel free to add the things that stand out to you the most.
1) Prepackaged prewar foods
It's been 200 years since the last bottle of Nuka Cola was bottled, the last box of Sugar Bombs was packaged, and the last carton of Blamo! Mac and Cheese was shipped out. Yet somehow not only are these prepackaged prewar foods and drinks still around in great abundance, having somehow avoided hungry scroungers like the Lone Wanderer by hiding in plain sight for centuries, but they are also still edible! I'm sorry people, but even Spam has an expiration date. Don't believe me; check the bottom of the can next time you're in the grocery store. Even IF the preservatives in the food keep your Cram from rotting and boll weevil eggs from hatching in your Sugar Bombs, do you really think those Dandy Boy Apples aren't fossilized by now after sitting around for 200 years? Bear in mind, I'm not talking about the squirrel on a stick or the brahman steak or other such confections as can be made in the wasteland. I'm only talking about the prepackaged food and drink that nobody has produced since the bombs fell and has apparently been sitting around untouched just waiting for your character to come around and feast on them. I mean really. You think your Coka Cola is flat after sitting around in the open for a day or so? Your character is running around chugging sodas that have been sitting around in the open for literally hundreds of years! I would think that's ANYTHING but refreshing! And you're surprised that one of the ingredients for the Nuka Grenade are 200 year old Nuka Cola Quantums!
Going off our modern packaging and preservation methods I agree with you on this one. But for the sake of argument, how could we know they didnt discover some miracle preservant that makes stuff last forever. Also soda may go flat but that doesnt stop it from being drinkable or even flavorful.
2) All the foliage is dead
For this argument I would like to point out our good old friend, Chernobyl. They had a nuclear meltdown at their power plant over 20 years ago. The gamma radiation killed off and sterilized everything for miles around. It's only been about 20 years and all the vegetation has grown back, overtaking the buildings people once occupied. I would think that after 200 years the trees will have recovered enough to where there would be insane forestation. Ah, but green trees don't look as desolate and hopeless as a barren wasteland, and that just kills the mood. Well, if they never came back, then all the trees we see in the game must be petrified.
You have to take into account that that was one, singular non-weaponized explosion. There were possibly hundreds of weaponized nuclear explosions in the Capital Wasteland alone. Also at Chernobyl you had a ground level explosion while with nuclear weapons you have atmospheric explosions because that increases damage by multiples and spreads the radiation further. Also it takes millions of years for wood to petrify and even then it must be imbedded in solid rock.
3) Everything is still irradiated
Once again, Chernobyl. If the ground and water were still so irradiated that you could get radiation poisoning from it then do you really think that the plants and animals would have come back in force like they have? After just 20 years? Radiation doesn't sit around forever, it does dissipate.
There are still mutations going on at Chernobyl in both humans and animals. The birth rate of a completely normal human baby within something like 100km of the site are 1 in 100. Now imagine that disaster magnified times hundreds maybe even thousands.
4) Ghouls
Have you SEEN real people who were exposed to as much radiation as the ghouls apparently were!? Not only do they look nothing like that, but even if they did, that much damage caused by radiation would not make you immortal! As a matter of fact you would die much quicker than an ordinary human would. You would have hours, maybe days, not hundreds of years like these jokers. Oh, and the Chinese ghouls still fighting a war that ended 200 years ago?.HILARIOUS! Seriously, just ditch the rotting bodies; pick an old building, AND HAUNT IT ALREADY!
No one has seen a person exposed to that much radiation because that much radiation has never been close enough to affect a living human. And because we havent, no one has an idea what would happen if someone WAS exposed to that much radiation. They could turn to cheese for all we know.
5) Society at large has yet to move on
Seriously, guys, it's been 200 years, more than enough time for new countries to form. Not just city-states, countries. Let's look at the last quasi-apocalyptic event that happened to humanity which we survived: the fall of the Roman Empire. No, really, people back then thought that the world was coming to an end. How long did it take for new countries to spring up from the corpse of the Roman Empire? Yeah.
The fall of the Roman Empire didnt kill billions of people and utterly decimate all living plants and animals on Earth. Also it's kind of hard to form a nation when you think almost everyone wants to kill you and steal your food. Also it took about 400 years for actual nations to form in the region controlled by the Roman Empire. Ever heard of the Dark Ages? Or how about medieval Europe? that was the result of the fall of the Roman Empire, which actually WAS made up of a bunch of "city-states".
Oh, and the fact that individual people have yet to get over the fact that the US is gone is absurd. It's been 200 years, none of these people reminiscing about the glory days of America were even alive back then! Take for example the psycho cannibal happy families in Andale. In one of your conversations with them one of them says something to the effect of, "I think it's every American's God-given right to vote for their favorite Republican candidate! I sure didn't vote for no commie liberal, no sir!" What the hell is he talking about?!?!?! The US as we know it ended at least 160 years before this nut job was born! What the frakk does he know about liberals and conservatives, Republicans and Democrats? What does he know about what their party lines were and what their rivalries where about? Just to put things in perspective for you let's look back 200 year ago from today to the year 1810. How many of you know that the two major parties back then were the Democrats and the Wigs? No the Wigs were not the precursors to the Republicans, they were a different political party with a different party line and agenda all together. And who among you actually remembers the Wigs party lines, policies, or even what their feuds with the Democrats where about? Better yet how many of you CARE? It's been 200 years and the Wigs are no longer relevant. Ergo, what is a closet cannibal doing touting the party line of a political party that ceased to exist 200 years ago?
Furthermore, "President" John Henry Eden and his talk about baseball just kills me. Seriously? Seriously. I don't care what he really is; nobody has played baseball in 200 years. I didn't even know that the team known as the Capital Congressmen existed until I played this game. How would anyone who lives 200 years after the team ceases to exist know or care? Does anybody play anymore? Does anyone even remember how to play? Why oh why would you think that describing a sport that has been dead for centuries would inspire patriotism? Wait don't answer that! I know the answer and it is still absurd. I mean, really, would you try to inspire patriotism in Mexicans by talking to them about those crazy death sports that the Meso Americans played? I'm sure your average Mexican citizen would call you loco if you promised to bring those sports back as a way of inspiring hope in them. I know, bad anology. You don't kill the losing team in baseball, but you get my point.
Its because such things get passed on either orally or in the [censored] ton of books that still exist and are read. You know about the Whigs dont you? And other people know about the Whigs dont they? And how do you think we know about the Whigs? Through orall and written accounts of them. Same principle applies here.
And another thing, why are people still living in old, half destroyed houses after 200 years? People build, people repair, people rebuild. Societies do not set up in half destroyed ruins, sleeping on pre Armageddon beds for the rest of their existence. Megaton was neat, I liked it, but places like Canterbury Commons, Paradise Falls, and a whole bunch of other cities are just absurd. It's been 200 years, move on already!
Do you know how to build a house from scratch? Even if you did could you do it by yourself? If you were out in a wasteland where everything wanted to kill you and harm you and you could get relative safety in a shelter would you pass over a completely functioning and livable house in favor of "moving on"?
6) Prewar technology and weapons still work
The idea that machines never age and they can just last forever is an old, flawed, faulty science fiction idea from the 70s. Machines may not "age" like people do, but parts break over time with regular use, mineral deposits build up on guns that render then useless, circuits wear down, and many metals do rust.
How do you know these weapons and other such things are in regular use? Things like weapons you found in Wheatons Armory havent been used in 200 years so they wouldnt wear down. Also people would have to maintain the weapons they're using so they wouldnt spontaneously bust while in combat thus you would be able to find working weapons. Also mineral deposits? The only way you'd have mineral deposits was if the gun was left sitting in running water. Lastly the industrial machinery that im guessing your reffering to has rust resistant coatings which would probably multiples better then the ones we use now considering the advanced technology they have.
Time wears down all things, be it mountain or machine. Have any of you tried to use a 200 year old weapon? I mean really just picked up a 200 year old weapon and tried to kill something with it? Or how about a 200 year old gun? Without even servicing it or refurbishing it, have you tried to load and shoot it?
I havent but others have. There are civil war era muskets and lever actions that were manufactured over a hundred years ago that still function today with little to no maitenance.
No, you wouldn't even think about doing that because you don't know what might happen. Forget Indiana Jones, really old technology build by old civilizations does not keep working after hundreds or even thousands of years. Especially if it is a complex piece of machinery, I don't care who built it. Sure a sun dial may still work, good as new no matter how long it has been around, but do you really think you can just pick up a bazooka that was used in World War 1 and fire it off as though it was brand new if it had been sitting in a basemant all this time without proper maintenance or upkeep? How about if it was sitting in that basemant for 200 years? Would you really trust that same bazooka to work in the year 2120? What about the ammo? Do you honestly think those 200 year-old rockets will work at all, let alone work like they were made yesterday? The Brotherhood of Steel maintaining and up keeping the technology that they guard is one thing. Finding a Chinese assault rifle in a cave, picking it up, and immediately using it to fill raiders with lead is another thing entirely.
Don't even get me started on the electrically activated doors and robots still working like new after 200 years. Like I said, parts break over time with regular use.
They're are robots and such things that they use to maintain factories in Fallout 3. We know this for a fact. Do you think a nuclear reactor would have a lower quality maitenance system then any old facotry? No they wouldn't.
7 Electronics and lights still function
The fact that 200 year old light bulbs still work is extremely laughable, I don't care what type of bulb they are. I shouldn't have to explain why. How do I know that the bulbs are 200 years old? Think about it; have you seen a fully functional and productive manufacturing plant of ANY kind in the Wasteland? Who's building these new light bulbs? I also love these computers in old abandoned buildings that still turn on when you push the power button and operate like normal. Forget the fact that these things are primitive by our standards today, circuits still wear down given long enough.
These things could have mini nuclear reactors in them for all we know. Or they could be running off microfusion cells. And primitive? The thing could be running 1024 terrabyte hard drives with 1000 terrabytes of RAM for all we know and judging by the technology they probably are. Also almost zero wear occurs on wires from a current simply running through them and thats exactly what these circuits would be.
I've got an even better question for all of you. Where is the electricity coming from? Last I checked all the power plants are in disuse, abandoned, and filled with feral ghouls. Where is the electricity coming from? Never mind the fact that a reactor has to be completely replaced with brand spanking new parts before it even gets close to the 200 year mark or it breaks down utterly. Parts break over time with regular use. Who is supplying power to a grid that has been in disrepair for a couple of centuries? And how does any of it still work. Do you know how much maintenance it takes to keep those grids working in the here and now when they haven't been hit with nukes? It is insanely difficult. And you think that the power plants will just keep on running 200 years after they've been abandoned? Yeah right.
See 2 posts above.
And what about the generators that Tenpenny Tower, the Citadel, and other such places run on? Last I checked generators run on gasoline, and where does gasoline come from when society collapses? Nowhere, that's where. And don't tell me it's a nuclear generator. Let me explain to you the whole point of a nuclear reactor: it's to boil water. I'm not kidding you. The reactor superheats the water, and then super pressurized super hot steam is channeled through pipes to turn a turbine like a water mill, which generates electricity. Where is the water in these generators? Where is the cooling tower to re-condense the water to be boiled again? I'm telling you, these generators run on pixie dust! Pixie dust solves everything!
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Microfusion_Cell
"It is described as a medium sized energy production unit, a self-contained fusion plant."
Anyway, that's it for me. If you guys have anything that you would like to add or comment on, you know what to do. And to those of you who want to tell me, "It's only fiction, shut up and enjoy the game," I say to you, I have/do enjoy the game, and now I'm enjoying geeking out over its implausibilities. Enjoy!
P.S. edit
To all those who claim that there is no plant life in the world of Fallout, I would like to point out a few quid pro quos.
1) Harold. If you know what I'm talking about then you know what I mean. I tried not to spoil anything concerning "President" Eden, and I'm not going to do it for Harold.
2) Muitfruit. What is it and where does it come from?
3) Point Look out. The bombs didn't fall there and it's a bit of a swamp. And there is a weird fruit that is grown there.
4) In the first Fallout game the first town I ran into was a farming town. That's right, a FARM town. They were growing crops. With a high enough science skill you could advise them on crop rotation. Please, nobody be stupid and tell me that crops don't count. Hey, anyone remember meeting Tandy? Don't ask me why I remember.
1) Prepackaged prewar foods
It's been 200 years since the last bottle of Nuka Cola was bottled, the last box of Sugar Bombs was packaged, and the last carton of Blamo! Mac and Cheese was shipped out. Yet somehow not only are these prepackaged prewar foods and drinks still around in great abundance, having somehow avoided hungry scroungers like the Lone Wanderer by hiding in plain sight for centuries, but they are also still edible! I'm sorry people, but even Spam has an expiration date. Don't believe me; check the bottom of the can next time you're in the grocery store. Even IF the preservatives in the food keep your Cram from rotting and boll weevil eggs from hatching in your Sugar Bombs, do you really think those Dandy Boy Apples aren't fossilized by now after sitting around for 200 years? Bear in mind, I'm not talking about the squirrel on a stick or the brahman steak or other such confections as can be made in the wasteland. I'm only talking about the prepackaged food and drink that nobody has produced since the bombs fell and has apparently been sitting around untouched just waiting for your character to come around and feast on them. I mean really. You think your Coka Cola is flat after sitting around in the open for a day or so? Your character is running around chugging sodas that have been sitting around in the open for literally hundreds of years! I would think that's ANYTHING but refreshing! And you're surprised that one of the ingredients for the Nuka Grenade are 200 year old Nuka Cola Quantums!
Going off our modern packaging and preservation methods I agree with you on this one. But for the sake of argument, how could we know they didnt discover some miracle preservant that makes stuff last forever. Also soda may go flat but that doesnt stop it from being drinkable or even flavorful.
2) All the foliage is dead
For this argument I would like to point out our good old friend, Chernobyl. They had a nuclear meltdown at their power plant over 20 years ago. The gamma radiation killed off and sterilized everything for miles around. It's only been about 20 years and all the vegetation has grown back, overtaking the buildings people once occupied. I would think that after 200 years the trees will have recovered enough to where there would be insane forestation. Ah, but green trees don't look as desolate and hopeless as a barren wasteland, and that just kills the mood. Well, if they never came back, then all the trees we see in the game must be petrified.
You have to take into account that that was one, singular non-weaponized explosion. There were possibly hundreds of weaponized nuclear explosions in the Capital Wasteland alone. Also at Chernobyl you had a ground level explosion while with nuclear weapons you have atmospheric explosions because that increases damage by multiples and spreads the radiation further. Also it takes millions of years for wood to petrify and even then it must be imbedded in solid rock.
3) Everything is still irradiated
Once again, Chernobyl. If the ground and water were still so irradiated that you could get radiation poisoning from it then do you really think that the plants and animals would have come back in force like they have? After just 20 years? Radiation doesn't sit around forever, it does dissipate.
There are still mutations going on at Chernobyl in both humans and animals. The birth rate of a completely normal human baby within something like 100km of the site are 1 in 100. Now imagine that disaster magnified times hundreds maybe even thousands.
4) Ghouls
Have you SEEN real people who were exposed to as much radiation as the ghouls apparently were!? Not only do they look nothing like that, but even if they did, that much damage caused by radiation would not make you immortal! As a matter of fact you would die much quicker than an ordinary human would. You would have hours, maybe days, not hundreds of years like these jokers. Oh, and the Chinese ghouls still fighting a war that ended 200 years ago?.HILARIOUS! Seriously, just ditch the rotting bodies; pick an old building, AND HAUNT IT ALREADY!
No one has seen a person exposed to that much radiation because that much radiation has never been close enough to affect a living human. And because we havent, no one has an idea what would happen if someone WAS exposed to that much radiation. They could turn to cheese for all we know.
5) Society at large has yet to move on
Seriously, guys, it's been 200 years, more than enough time for new countries to form. Not just city-states, countries. Let's look at the last quasi-apocalyptic event that happened to humanity which we survived: the fall of the Roman Empire. No, really, people back then thought that the world was coming to an end. How long did it take for new countries to spring up from the corpse of the Roman Empire? Yeah.
The fall of the Roman Empire didnt kill billions of people and utterly decimate all living plants and animals on Earth. Also it's kind of hard to form a nation when you think almost everyone wants to kill you and steal your food. Also it took about 400 years for actual nations to form in the region controlled by the Roman Empire. Ever heard of the Dark Ages? Or how about medieval Europe? that was the result of the fall of the Roman Empire, which actually WAS made up of a bunch of "city-states".
Oh, and the fact that individual people have yet to get over the fact that the US is gone is absurd. It's been 200 years, none of these people reminiscing about the glory days of America were even alive back then! Take for example the psycho cannibal happy families in Andale. In one of your conversations with them one of them says something to the effect of, "I think it's every American's God-given right to vote for their favorite Republican candidate! I sure didn't vote for no commie liberal, no sir!" What the hell is he talking about?!?!?! The US as we know it ended at least 160 years before this nut job was born! What the frakk does he know about liberals and conservatives, Republicans and Democrats? What does he know about what their party lines were and what their rivalries where about? Just to put things in perspective for you let's look back 200 year ago from today to the year 1810. How many of you know that the two major parties back then were the Democrats and the Wigs? No the Wigs were not the precursors to the Republicans, they were a different political party with a different party line and agenda all together. And who among you actually remembers the Wigs party lines, policies, or even what their feuds with the Democrats where about? Better yet how many of you CARE? It's been 200 years and the Wigs are no longer relevant. Ergo, what is a closet cannibal doing touting the party line of a political party that ceased to exist 200 years ago?
Furthermore, "President" John Henry Eden and his talk about baseball just kills me. Seriously? Seriously. I don't care what he really is; nobody has played baseball in 200 years. I didn't even know that the team known as the Capital Congressmen existed until I played this game. How would anyone who lives 200 years after the team ceases to exist know or care? Does anybody play anymore? Does anyone even remember how to play? Why oh why would you think that describing a sport that has been dead for centuries would inspire patriotism? Wait don't answer that! I know the answer and it is still absurd. I mean, really, would you try to inspire patriotism in Mexicans by talking to them about those crazy death sports that the Meso Americans played? I'm sure your average Mexican citizen would call you loco if you promised to bring those sports back as a way of inspiring hope in them. I know, bad anology. You don't kill the losing team in baseball, but you get my point.
Its because such things get passed on either orally or in the [censored] ton of books that still exist and are read. You know about the Whigs dont you? And other people know about the Whigs dont they? And how do you think we know about the Whigs? Through orall and written accounts of them. Same principle applies here.
And another thing, why are people still living in old, half destroyed houses after 200 years? People build, people repair, people rebuild. Societies do not set up in half destroyed ruins, sleeping on pre Armageddon beds for the rest of their existence. Megaton was neat, I liked it, but places like Canterbury Commons, Paradise Falls, and a whole bunch of other cities are just absurd. It's been 200 years, move on already!
Do you know how to build a house from scratch? Even if you did could you do it by yourself? If you were out in a wasteland where everything wanted to kill you and harm you and you could get relative safety in a shelter would you pass over a completely functioning and livable house in favor of "moving on"?
6) Prewar technology and weapons still work
The idea that machines never age and they can just last forever is an old, flawed, faulty science fiction idea from the 70s. Machines may not "age" like people do, but parts break over time with regular use, mineral deposits build up on guns that render then useless, circuits wear down, and many metals do rust.
How do you know these weapons and other such things are in regular use? Things like weapons you found in Wheatons Armory havent been used in 200 years so they wouldnt wear down. Also people would have to maintain the weapons they're using so they wouldnt spontaneously bust while in combat thus you would be able to find working weapons. Also mineral deposits? The only way you'd have mineral deposits was if the gun was left sitting in running water. Lastly the industrial machinery that im guessing your reffering to has rust resistant coatings which would probably multiples better then the ones we use now considering the advanced technology they have.
Time wears down all things, be it mountain or machine. Have any of you tried to use a 200 year old weapon? I mean really just picked up a 200 year old weapon and tried to kill something with it? Or how about a 200 year old gun? Without even servicing it or refurbishing it, have you tried to load and shoot it?
I havent but others have. There are civil war era muskets and lever actions that were manufactured over a hundred years ago that still function today with little to no maitenance.
No, you wouldn't even think about doing that because you don't know what might happen. Forget Indiana Jones, really old technology build by old civilizations does not keep working after hundreds or even thousands of years. Especially if it is a complex piece of machinery, I don't care who built it. Sure a sun dial may still work, good as new no matter how long it has been around, but do you really think you can just pick up a bazooka that was used in World War 1 and fire it off as though it was brand new if it had been sitting in a basemant all this time without proper maintenance or upkeep? How about if it was sitting in that basemant for 200 years? Would you really trust that same bazooka to work in the year 2120? What about the ammo? Do you honestly think those 200 year-old rockets will work at all, let alone work like they were made yesterday? The Brotherhood of Steel maintaining and up keeping the technology that they guard is one thing. Finding a Chinese assault rifle in a cave, picking it up, and immediately using it to fill raiders with lead is another thing entirely.
Don't even get me started on the electrically activated doors and robots still working like new after 200 years. Like I said, parts break over time with regular use.
They're are robots and such things that they use to maintain factories in Fallout 3. We know this for a fact. Do you think a nuclear reactor would have a lower quality maitenance system then any old facotry? No they wouldn't.
7 Electronics and lights still function
The fact that 200 year old light bulbs still work is extremely laughable, I don't care what type of bulb they are. I shouldn't have to explain why. How do I know that the bulbs are 200 years old? Think about it; have you seen a fully functional and productive manufacturing plant of ANY kind in the Wasteland? Who's building these new light bulbs? I also love these computers in old abandoned buildings that still turn on when you push the power button and operate like normal. Forget the fact that these things are primitive by our standards today, circuits still wear down given long enough.
These things could have mini nuclear reactors in them for all we know. Or they could be running off microfusion cells. And primitive? The thing could be running 1024 terrabyte hard drives with 1000 terrabytes of RAM for all we know and judging by the technology they probably are. Also almost zero wear occurs on wires from a current simply running through them and thats exactly what these circuits would be.
I've got an even better question for all of you. Where is the electricity coming from? Last I checked all the power plants are in disuse, abandoned, and filled with feral ghouls. Where is the electricity coming from? Never mind the fact that a reactor has to be completely replaced with brand spanking new parts before it even gets close to the 200 year mark or it breaks down utterly. Parts break over time with regular use. Who is supplying power to a grid that has been in disrepair for a couple of centuries? And how does any of it still work. Do you know how much maintenance it takes to keep those grids working in the here and now when they haven't been hit with nukes? It is insanely difficult. And you think that the power plants will just keep on running 200 years after they've been abandoned? Yeah right.
See 2 posts above.
And what about the generators that Tenpenny Tower, the Citadel, and other such places run on? Last I checked generators run on gasoline, and where does gasoline come from when society collapses? Nowhere, that's where. And don't tell me it's a nuclear generator. Let me explain to you the whole point of a nuclear reactor: it's to boil water. I'm not kidding you. The reactor superheats the water, and then super pressurized super hot steam is channeled through pipes to turn a turbine like a water mill, which generates electricity. Where is the water in these generators? Where is the cooling tower to re-condense the water to be boiled again? I'm telling you, these generators run on pixie dust! Pixie dust solves everything!
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Microfusion_Cell
"It is described as a medium sized energy production unit, a self-contained fusion plant."
Anyway, that's it for me. If you guys have anything that you would like to add or comment on, you know what to do. And to those of you who want to tell me, "It's only fiction, shut up and enjoy the game," I say to you, I have/do enjoy the game, and now I'm enjoying geeking out over its implausibilities. Enjoy!
P.S. edit
To all those who claim that there is no plant life in the world of Fallout, I would like to point out a few quid pro quos.
1) Harold. If you know what I'm talking about then you know what I mean. I tried not to spoil anything concerning "President" Eden, and I'm not going to do it for Harold.
2) Muitfruit. What is it and where does it come from?
3) Point Look out. The bombs didn't fall there and it's a bit of a swamp. And there is a weird fruit that is grown there.
4) In the first Fallout game the first town I ran into was a farming town. That's right, a FARM town. They were growing crops. With a high enough science skill you could advise them on crop rotation. Please, nobody be stupid and tell me that crops don't count. Hey, anyone remember meeting Tandy? Don't ask me why I remember.
