200 years, what a plot hole!

Post » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:37 am

1) Prepackaged prewar foods

2) All the foliage is dead

3) Everything is still irradiated

4) Ghouls

5) Society at large has yet to move on

6) Prewar technology and weapons still work

7 Electronics and lights still function


1) I too think its pretty stupid, I mean the first person who finds the store would have stripped it bare...but there are a heap of stores still untouched.

2) You cannot compare the plant regrowth to Chernobyl. When Chernobyl happened everything inside got killed, but then slowly the planets from outside the zone spread back in. In the wasteland this could happen becuase everywhere was hit, plants cant grow back if there are none left. The reason they were all killed was Nuclear winter which blocked out the sun and hence any other plants that were in a blast zone died.

3) It takes ages for radiation to break down, even longer if its around metal.

4) Ghouls are total fantasy based on crazy 50's ideas....dont rread into them being 'realistic'. Same with super mutants.

5) I think the main reason society is yet to move on is becasue its had to make a stable area. Super mutants, raiders and new mutated creatures destory entire settlements before they can really start to prosper again. This is part of the reason the BoS is trying so hard to get rid of the super mutants, cause you can defend against raiders, but super mutants not so much. The main problem is that nobody with power wants to take charge. The BoS is secretive and doesnt want to help people (though the capital wasteland group have brokenb away and trying to help more). The enclave just wants to wipe everyone out and start anew...

6) & 7) Yeah i suppose so, but if everything was broken and didnt work it would be pretty boring.
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Shannon Marie Jones
 
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Post » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:14 am

President Eden, politics, etc.

People, I assume, are intrigued by the prospect of a pre-war civilization, and since this history has been documented and preserved, a lot of people would have at least some idea of what this nation once was; it's political parties and pastimes included. If you're living in a the wasteland, barely scraping by, and somebody proclaims over the radio that he and the remnants of the U.S. government are here to save you, you don't usually question it. Such is the effectiveness of propaganda, and you can see that its historical effectiveness has largely been in desolate times with vulnerable people. The idea of someone being alive in a time before the war isn't that outlandish. Divergence plays a key role in this, and while you can criticize it all you want it, is the reality in the game world and it provides some justification to this "growing-up-in-rural-Kentucky" nonsense. He could have been made into an advanced form of the Robobrain, he could have been subject to an alternate form of ghoulification that preserved his voice, he could have been cryogenically frozen, who knows? I mean, those in Vault 112 have been alive for 200 years, so the technology is there. You can add this to your list of UNREAL NO WAI game features, but it allows for the believability of Eden's broadcasts in the game world nonetheless.
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Code Affinity
 
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Post » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:09 am

incidentally Chernobyl is still radioactive and will be for hundreds of years. parts of it are safe of course, but large portions of it are quite deadly. Try going for a road trip through Chernobyl with a geiger counter. Now take about 10 steps off the road, ok now hop back in your car before you develop cancer.

Now drive further down the road to a house way across from the sarcophagus but with windows facing it open and the front door closed. See if you can run inside and touch the wall before your hair falls out. You lose.

Serious.

Yerp forgot to add this http://www.kiddofspeed.com/chapter1.html check that site out to see just what a post apocalyptic Russia is like and how dissipated the radiation is.


I saw a show on it, on Discovery or one of those channels last year. Yes it is still deadly, but somehow wildlife adapted. Was pretty amazing to see.
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Romy Welsch
 
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Post » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:37 pm

...
2) All the foliage is dead
For this argument I would like to point out our good old friend, Chernobyl. They had a nuclear meltdown at their power plant over 20 years ago. The gamma radiation killed off and sterilized everything for miles around. It's only been about 20 years and all the vegetation has grown back, overtaking the buildings people once occupied. I would think that after 200 years the trees will have recovered enough to where there would be insane forestation. Ah, but green trees don't look as desolate and hopeless as a barren wasteland, and that just kills the mood. Well, if they never came back, then all the trees we see in the game must be petrified.
...

This one gets me too.

I hadn't thought of Chernbyl... that was a really good observation on your part. I did see a documentary on Chernobyl a few years ago, the town is literally a jungle.

Rather, I consider this point. The earth can mend it's self from a massive meteor impact in mere years, not centuries. Immediately after the impact, erosion would begin to put silt over the substratum rock. Microbes and beneficial bacteria would begin to turn the sterile silt into top soil in a few years, and vegetation would begin growing in the devastated area around the impact site just a few years later. Then foraging animals would move in a few years later, followed by the predators. It would take just 50-100 years for a viable eco system to return to an area that had been blasted clean down to the very crust of the earth by an act of nature thousands of times more devastating than all the nuclear weapons in the world combined, and then doubled.

Mankind, even with all his destructive devices, can not come close to being as violent and unforgiving as Mother Nature herself.

But, ah well... it is just a game, after all....
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Ymani Hood
 
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Post » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:10 pm

Other than the radiation bit!, I enjoyed your rant. Radiation half lives decays very sloooow.
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Stephanie Valentine
 
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Post » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:43 am

Interesting rant, though there are several flaws there. Also, it needs more line spacing.

Regarding President Eden and Andale, I don't believe this is a plot hole at all. In fact, it's the opposite: it actually fleshes out the characters.

To put it simply, all you have to do is remember where Eden and the Andale families came from.

Also, I believe a character says that some people think the Enclave radio is a pre-war remnant, and the baseball stuff just backs that up.
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Nick Tyler
 
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Post » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:09 am

Just repeat to yourself this is just a show, I should really just relax.

-Mystery Science Theatre 3000-
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Alkira rose Nankivell
 
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Post » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:23 am

I'm just curious. Do people try and anolyse OB or MO like this? I don't know cuz I don't play "fanasy" games.

OK, one thing to remember about Fallout is that it is mostly about perception. 1950's perceptions of the future to be specific. Technology never stopped advancing after the 50's, it's just that it's all "perceived" from a 1950's mindset. A major amount of innocense and ignorance. And very little knowledge of true technological advancements.
Hope that helps. At least it answers SOME of these questions. When you see something and wonder "why is it like that?", think about what they thought it "was going to be like" in the 50's.
I know theres still some inconsistancies, personally I'd like to see a lot more trees in the wasteland but aftyer 200 years, it really wouldn't be much of a wasteland at all. There's a whole new generation of people that would have missed out on that wasteland feel.
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Mrs shelly Sugarplum
 
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Post » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:17 am

Somebody must not have gotten that far in the game regarding John Henry Eden...

That is true about ghouls actually if a nuclear war did happen we would all be stupid and deformed like those poor old folks the Soviet Union dropped their test bombs on...
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^_^
 
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Post » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:46 am

First, let me say that I love Fallout 3. It has given me many hours of fun and enjoyment. But like all geeks I can't help but pick apart the plausibility (or lack thereof) of some of my favorite fictional entertainment. There comes a point at which the willing suspension of disbelief gives out and you have to point out the obvious absurdities of what you're looking at no matter how fictitious it is supposed to be. Particularly if it tries to sell itself as realistic, or at least plausible. So it is that below I will list some of the most glaring problems I can think of that arise simply because of the condition of the world in the game 200 years after the bombs fell. I might find it easier to swallow if the game took place 50 years after the bombs fell, but not 200! Since I'm only human I'm bound to miss a few things so please feel free to add the things that stand out to you the most.

1) Prepackaged prewar foods
It's been 200 years since the last bottle of Nuka Cola was bottled, the last box of Sugar Bombs was packaged, and the last carton of Blamo! Mac and Cheese was shipped out. Yet somehow not only are these prepackaged prewar foods and drinks still around in great abundance, having somehow avoided hungry scroungers like the Lone Wanderer by hiding in plain sight for centuries, but they are also still edible! I'm sorry people, but even Spam has an expiration date. Don't believe me; check the bottom of the can next time you're in the grocery store. Even IF the preservatives in the food keep your Cram from rotting and boll weevil eggs from hatching in your Sugar Bombs, do you really think those Dandy Boy Apples aren't fossilized by now after sitting around for 200 years? Bear in mind, I'm not talking about the squirrel on a stick or the brahman steak or other such confections as can be made in the wasteland. I'm only talking about the prepackaged food and drink that nobody has produced since the bombs fell and has apparently been sitting around untouched just waiting for your character to come around and feast on them. I mean really. You think your Coka Cola is flat after sitting around in the open for a day or so? Your character is running around chugging sodas that have been sitting around in the open for literally hundreds of years! I would think that's ANYTHING but refreshing! And you're surprised that one of the ingredients for the Nuka Grenade are 200 year old Nuka Cola Quantums!

2) All the foliage is dead
For this argument I would like to point out our good old friend, Chernobyl. They had a nuclear meltdown at their power plant over 20 years ago. The gamma radiation killed off and sterilized everything for miles around. It's only been about 20 years and all the vegetation has grown back, overtaking the buildings people once occupied. I would think that after 200 years the trees will have recovered enough to where there would be insane forestation. Ah, but green trees don't look as desolate and hopeless as a barren wasteland, and that just kills the mood. Well, if they never came back, then all the trees we see in the game must be petrified.
3) Everything is still irradiated
Once again, Chernobyl. If the ground and water were still so irradiated that you could get radiation poisoning from it then do you really think that the plants and animals would have come back in force like they have? After just 20 years? Radiation doesn't sit around forever, it does dissipate.
4) Ghouls
Have you SEEN real people who were exposed to as much radiation as the ghouls apparently were!? Not only do they look nothing like that, but even if they did, that much damage caused by radiation would not make you immortal! As a matter of fact you would die much quicker than an ordinary human would. You would have hours, maybe days, not hundreds of years like these jokers. Oh, and the Chinese ghouls still fighting a war that ended 200 years ago?.HILARIOUS! Seriously, just ditch the rotting bodies; pick an old building, AND HAUNT IT ALREADY!
5) Society at large has yet to move on
Seriously, guys, it's been 200 years, more than enough time for new countries to form. Not just city-states, countries. Let's look at the last quasi-apocalyptic event that happened to humanity which we survived: the fall of the Roman Empire. No, really, people back then thought that the world was coming to an end. How long did it take for new countries to spring up from the corpse of the Roman Empire? Yeah.
Oh, and the fact that individual people have yet to get over the fact that the US is gone is absurd. It's been 200 years, none of these people reminiscing about the glory days of America were even alive back then! Take for example the psycho cannibal happy families in Andale. In one of your conversations with them one of them says something to the effect of, "I think it's every American's God-given right to vote for their favorite Republican candidate! I sure didn't vote for no commie liberal, no sir!" What the hell is he talking about?!?!?! The US as we know it ended at least 160 years before this nut job was born! What the frakk does he know about liberals and conservatives, Republicans and Democrats? What does he know about what their party lines were and what their rivalries where about? Just to put things in perspective for you let's look back 200 year ago from today to the year 1810. How many of you know that the two major parties back then were the Democrats and the Wigs? No the Wigs were not the precursors to the Republicans, they were a different political party with a different party line and agenda all together. And who among you actually remembers the Wigs party lines, policies, or even what their feuds with the Democrats where about? Better yet how many of you CARE? It's been 200 years and the Wigs are no longer relevant. Ergo, what is a closet cannibal doing touting the party line of a political party that ceased to exist 200 years ago?
Furthermore, "President" John Henry Eden and his talk about baseball just kills me. Seriously? Seriously. I don't care what he really is; nobody has played baseball in 200 years. I didn't even know that the team known as the Capital Congressmen existed until I played this game. How would anyone who lives 200 years after the team ceases to exist know or care? Does anybody play anymore? Does anyone even remember how to play? Why oh why would you think that describing a sport that has been dead for centuries would inspire patriotism? Wait don't answer that! I know the answer and it is still absurd. I mean, really, would you try to inspire patriotism in Mexicans by talking to them about those crazy death sports that the Meso Americans played? I'm sure your average Mexican citizen would call you loco if you promised to bring those sports back as a way of inspiring hope in them. I know, bad anology. You don't kill the losing team in baseball, but you get my point.
And another thing, why are people still living in old, half destroyed houses after 200 years? People build, people repair, people rebuild. Societies do not set up in half destroyed ruins, sleeping on pre Armageddon beds for the rest of their existence. Megaton was neat, I liked it, but places like Canterbury Commons, Paradise Falls, and a whole bunch of other cities are just absurd. It's been 200 years, move on already!
6) Prewar technology and weapons still work
The idea that machines never age and they can just last forever is an old, flawed, faulty science fiction idea from the 70s. Machines may not "age" like people do, but parts break over time with regular use, mineral deposits build up on guns that render then useless, circuits wear down, and many metals do rust. Time wears down all things, be it mountain or machine. Have any of you tried to use a 200 year old weapon? I mean really just picked up a 200 year old weapon and tried to kill something with it? Or how about a 200 year old gun? Without even servicing it or refurbishing it, have you tried to load and shoot it? No, you wouldn't even think about doing that because you don't know what might happen. Forget Indiana Jones, really old technology build by old civilizations does not keep working after hundreds or even thousands of years. Especially if it is a complex piece of machinery, I don't care who built it. Sure a sun dial may still work, good as new no matter how long it has been around, but do you really think you can just pick up a bazooka that was used in World War 1 and fire it off as though it was brand new if it had been sitting in a basemant all this time without proper maintenance or upkeep? How about if it was sitting in that basemant for 200 years? Would you really trust that same bazooka to work in the year 2120? What about the ammo? Do you honestly think those 200 year-old rockets will work at all, let alone work like they were made yesterday? The Brotherhood of Steel maintaining and up keeping the technology that they guard is one thing. Finding a Chinese assault rifle in a cave, picking it up, and immediately using it to fill raiders with lead is another thing entirely.
Don't even get me started on the electrically activated doors and robots still working like new after 200 years. Like I said, parts break over time with regular use.
7 Electronics and lights still function
The fact that 200 year old light bulbs still work is extremely laughable, I don't care what type of bulb they are. I shouldn't have to explain why. How do I know that the bulbs are 200 years old? Think about it; have you seen a fully functional and productive manufacturing plant of ANY kind in the Wasteland? Who's building these new light bulbs? I also love these computers in old abandoned buildings that still turn on when you push the power button and operate like normal. Forget the fact that these things are primitive by our standards today, circuits still wear down given long enough.
I've got an even better question for all of you. Where is the electricity coming from? Last I checked all the power plants are in disuse, abandoned, and filled with feral ghouls. Where is the electricity coming from? Never mind the fact that a reactor has to be completely replaced with brand spanking new parts before it even gets close to the 200 year mark or it breaks down utterly. Parts break over time with regular use. Who is supplying power to a grid that has been in disrepair for a couple of centuries? And how does any of it still work. Do you know how much maintenance it takes to keep those grids working in the here and now when they haven't been hit with nukes? It is insanely difficult. And you think that the power plants will just keep on running 200 years after they've been abandoned? Yeah right.
And what about the generators that Tenpenny Tower, the Citadel, and other such places run on? Last I checked generators run on gasoline, and where does gasoline come from when society collapses? Nowhere, that's where. And don't tell me it's a nuclear generator. Let me explain to you the whole point of a nuclear reactor: it's to boil water. I'm not kidding you. The reactor superheats the water, and then super pressurized super hot steam is channeled through pipes to turn a turbine like a water mill, which generates electricity. Where is the water in these generators? Where is the cooling tower to re-condense the water to be boiled again? I'm telling you, these generators run on pixie dust! Pixie dust solves everything!

Anyway, that's it for me. If you guys have anything that you would like to add or comment on, you know what to do. And to those of you who want to tell me, "It's only fiction, shut up and enjoy the game," I say to you, I have/do enjoy the game, and now I'm enjoying geeking out over its implausibilities. Enjoy!




there your amswer.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_Wiki
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Budgie
 
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Post » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:23 pm

Sounds to me like you would enjoy a game that is, like, totally realistic....

There's several places in Iraq or Afghanistan that might fit the bill...no reloads if the game turns sour, though...
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Klaire
 
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Post » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:03 am

3) Everything is still irradiated
Once again, Chernobyl. If the ground and water were still so irradiated that you could get radiation poisoning from it then do you really think that the plants and animals would have come back in force like they have? After just 20 years? Radiation doesn't sit around forever, it does dissipate.

Wait, what? Would you please sneak into Chernobyl (since it's still a sealed-off area), without any suits on but your mere clothes and stay there for a week? Then after a year, after you feel the results of the radiation tell us how you think about it? Chernobyl is still heavily irradiated mate.

Actually there is still the 30 kilometer zone around Chernobyl that is labeled highly dangerous.

Now, imagine 600 Chernobyls exploding all over the world. There is Fallout 3.

Chernobyl is totally overused and inadequate for any kind of example of what would happen after a full scale global nuclear war. Chernobyl was a single reactor that exploded spewing out radioactive material over a very large area of Europe. It killed thousands and soiled the land, but it was never designed as a weapon. Although Chernobyl put out 400 times the nuclear fallout than had been released by the bombing of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster, the modern hydrogen bomb uses the equivilant of the bombs used in Japan as a detonator. Yea that's right, as the detonator. See this article near the bottom - http://electrodes.wordpress.com/2009/07/12/do-you-remember-chernobyl-nuclear-disaster-contamination-apparently-worse-than-previously-thought/ Now try your best to imagine hundreds of these things being dropped all over the world. It would make Chernobyl look like a teenager's zit by comparison. People who talk about Chernobyl forget that it was a nuclear facility designed to generate power while nuclear weapons are designed to completely flatten entire cities to the ground. There are many descriptions of the carnage resulting from all out nuclear war on the internet. Before using the Chernobyl example I would recommend looking a few of them over.

That said, I get the realism stuff, but it's a game. I can always suspend my sense of reality for a game. That's one reason I play them. If I want to see the harshness of reality all I need to do is watch the evening news.

Just a note, the UN Rapport 'Health Effects of the Chernobyl Accident and Special Health Care Programmes' has been heavily criticised as to the deaths of people. 57 researchers have been researching the results of it and came to the conclusion of around 100.000 fatalities and 250.000 people ending up with cancer, non-fatal.

Every country surrounding, even my country (Netherlands) is STILL effected by the Chernobyl disaster. There's more radiation (not much at all, only a very tiny bit) than there was before the events happened, 20 years later.
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Julie Serebrekoff
 
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Post » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:38 am

If all the plants die, then there's no seeds to bring the plants back.


As I suppose, Punga will be the new Lucy of the legume family. mmmmmm.....Punga seeds! :woot:
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Rinceoir
 
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Post » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:23 am

Regarding the first point, note that the population has been decimated. The Capital Wasteland comprises a few very small settlements. We can surmise that the population is slow to recover from the war because the radiation either makes people sterile or massively increases infant mortality (both seem plausible to me). When you have a tiny population measured in the hundreds or maybe low thousands, the vast quantity of pre-packaged and processed foods in our society - produced for a population of tens of millions - would be a cornucopia that could last for years or indeed centuries. I think we can take it that the boxes of Cram and Instamash that we find lying around are just the ones that are still edible - no doubt many have been consumed and many have rotted away in the years since the war but they were produced in such huge quantities that there are still plenty that are usable.

With a tiny population, empires and city-states are impossible. This is village-level living.
Spoiler
Ashur is trying to create one such in the Pitt, but he has to import people as slaves to make it viable
.

Point 6 is well-made about the weapons, but as for the robots and technology: first, we know that in this universe everything is nuclear powered so their having power is perfectly reasonable; secondly, we must assume that they were built with automatic repair and maintenance mechanisms. I'm reminded of that great old 50's movie Forbidden Planet, where a giant machine has been running for hundreds of thousands of years, looking after itself despite having no users and no function.
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Jade Barnes-Mackey
 
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Post » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:31 am

Fallout is not about what makes sense. Pretty much everything from the Vaults to food to society are a far cry of what it should be if you wanted a realistic game universe.
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Killah Bee
 
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Post » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:16 am

The pre-packaged food and unlooted areas do make me wonder, I will admit. Sealed off areas make sense, but there's loads of places in the wasteland that are unlocked and open to anyone to wander in and grab everything.

In terms of the lightbulb thing, perhaps bulbs like the one manufactured by the http://www.centennialbulb.org/ ?
NOOB!
It's a game, not a history text.

Do you realy think anybody read all that?

If you can't be bothered to read, what are you doing on a forum?
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Alexxxxxx
 
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Post » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:12 am

If you can't be bothered to read, what are you doing on a forum?


Ain't that the truth.

I actually liked the wall of text because i have similar feelings of the game myself sometimes.
The thing that annoyes me the most of all tho...why are the streets packed with thrash? I can understand the car wrecks and bent cans and other things but what about all the heaps of newspapers and other stuff that would normally decay in about 200 years.

I dont let ist get in the way though since then you could dismiss the whole game as unbelievable and non realistic. I like to watch the old bill boards and posters on the wall for example, it really adds to the immersion to me despite of it being impossible.
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Schel[Anne]FTL
 
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Post » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:33 am

It's SCIENCE!, not science.

;)

It's also retro-future. Not future.

Some people play this game because it's kinda like Oblivion with guns. (They're the ones who want to import every single COD game and Counterstrike as well).'

Some people play it because they like Fallout.
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jessica robson
 
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Post » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:52 pm

incidentally Chernobyl is still radioactive and will be for hundreds of years. parts of it are safe of course, but large portions of it are quite deadly. Try going for a road trip through Chernobyl with a geiger counter. Now take about 10 steps off the road, ok now hop back in your car before you develop cancer.

Now drive further down the road to a house way across from the sarcophagus but with windows facing it open and the front door closed. See if you can run inside and touch the wall before your hair falls out. You lose.

Serious.

Yerp forgot to add this http://www.kiddofspeed.com/chapter1.html check that site out to see just what a post apocalyptic Russia is like and how dissipated the radiation is.



Radiation will stay in the Chernobyl area for the next 48.000 years, but humans may begin repopulating the area in about 600 years - give or take three centuries. The experts predict that, by then, the most dangerous elements will have disappeared - or been sufficiently diluted into the rest of the world's air, soil and water. If our government can somehow find the money and political will power to finance the necessary scientific research, perhaps a way will be discovered to neutralize or clean up the contamination sooner. Otherwise, our distant ancestors will have to wait untill the radiation diminishes to a tolerable level. If we use the lowest scientific estimate, that will be 300 years from now......some scientists say it may be as long as 900 years.


According to this little snipet of information from the above posted website the plasusability of the game taking 200 years after the effects of a nuclear war seem like its possible. But again, it is a game and meant to be entertaining and not a work of education in history.

BTW, I suggest reading that site. Very interesting stuff. Some of it disturbing....especially some of the pictures.
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Chantelle Walker
 
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Post » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:03 am

First, let me say that I love Fallout 3. It has given me many hours of fun and enjoyment. But like all geeks I can't help but pick apart the plausibility (or lack thereof) of some of my favorite fictional entertainment. There comes a point at which the willing suspension of disbelief gives out and you have to point out the obvious absurdities of what you're looking at no matter how fictitious it is supposed to be. Particularly if it tries to sell itself as realistic, or at least plausible. So it is that below I will list some of the most glaring problems I can think of that arise simply because of the condition of the world in the game 200 years after the bombs fell. I might find it easier to swallow if the game took place 50 years after the bombs fell, but not 200! Since I'm only human I'm bound to miss a few things so please feel free to add the things that stand out to you the most.

1) Prepackaged prewar foods
It's been 200 years since the last bottle of Nuka Cola was bottled, the last box of Sugar Bombs was packaged, and the last carton of Blamo! Mac and Cheese was shipped out. Yet somehow not only are these prepackaged prewar foods and drinks still around in great abundance, having somehow avoided hungry scroungers like the Lone Wanderer by hiding in plain sight for centuries, but they are also still edible! I'm sorry people, but even Spam has an expiration date. Don't believe me; check the bottom of the can next time you're in the grocery store. Even IF the preservatives in the food keep your Cram from rotting and boll weevil eggs from hatching in your Sugar Bombs, do you really think those Dandy Boy Apples aren't fossilized by now after sitting around for 200 years? Bear in mind, I'm not talking about the squirrel on a stick or the brahman steak or other such confections as can be made in the wasteland. I'm only talking about the prepackaged food and drink that nobody has produced since the bombs fell and has apparently been sitting around untouched just waiting for your character to come around and feast on them. I mean really. You think your Coka Cola is flat after sitting around in the open for a day or so? Your character is running around chugging sodas that have been sitting around in the open for literally hundreds of years! I would think that's ANYTHING but refreshing! And you're surprised that one of the ingredients for the Nuka Grenade are 200 year old Nuka Cola Quantums!

2) All the foliage is dead
For this argument I would like to point out our good old friend, Chernobyl. They had a nuclear meltdown at their power plant over 20 years ago. The gamma radiation killed off and sterilized everything for miles around. It's only been about 20 years and all the vegetation has grown back, overtaking the buildings people once occupied. I would think that after 200 years the trees will have recovered enough to where there would be insane forestation. Ah, but green trees don't look as desolate and hopeless as a barren wasteland, and that just kills the mood. Well, if they never came back, then all the trees we see in the game must be petrified.
3) Everything is still irradiated
Once again, Chernobyl. If the ground and water were still so irradiated that you could get radiation poisoning from it then do you really think that the plants and animals would have come back in force like they have? After just 20 years? Radiation doesn't sit around forever, it does dissipate.
4) Ghouls
Have you SEEN real people who were exposed to as much radiation as the ghouls apparently were!? Not only do they look nothing like that, but even if they did, that much damage caused by radiation would not make you immortal! As a matter of fact you would die much quicker than an ordinary human would. You would have hours, maybe days, not hundreds of years like these jokers. Oh, and the Chinese ghouls still fighting a war that ended 200 years ago?.HILARIOUS! Seriously, just ditch the rotting bodies; pick an old building, AND HAUNT IT ALREADY!
5) Society at large has yet to move on
Seriously, guys, it's been 200 years, more than enough time for new countries to form. Not just city-states, countries. Let's look at the last quasi-apocalyptic event that happened to humanity which we survived: the fall of the Roman Empire. No, really, people back then thought that the world was coming to an end. How long did it take for new countries to spring up from the corpse of the Roman Empire? Yeah.
Oh, and the fact that individual people have yet to get over the fact that the US is gone is absurd. It's been 200 years, none of these people reminiscing about the glory days of America were even alive back then! Take for example the psycho cannibal happy families in Andale. In one of your conversations with them one of them says something to the effect of, "I think it's every American's God-given right to vote for their favorite Republican candidate! I sure didn't vote for no commie liberal, no sir!" What the hell is he talking about?!?!?! The US as we know it ended at least 160 years before this nut job was born! What the frakk does he know about liberals and conservatives, Republicans and Democrats? What does he know about what their party lines were and what their rivalries where about? Just to put things in perspective for you let's look back 200 year ago from today to the year 1810. How many of you know that the two major parties back then were the Democrats and the Wigs? No the Wigs were not the precursors to the Republicans, they were a different political party with a different party line and agenda all together. And who among you actually remembers the Wigs party lines, policies, or even what their feuds with the Democrats where about? Better yet how many of you CARE? It's been 200 years and the Wigs are no longer relevant. Ergo, what is a closet cannibal doing touting the party line of a political party that ceased to exist 200 years ago?
Furthermore, "President" John Henry Eden and his talk about baseball just kills me. Seriously? Seriously. I don't care what he really is; nobody has played baseball in 200 years. I didn't even know that the team known as the Capital Congressmen existed until I played this game. How would anyone who lives 200 years after the team ceases to exist know or care? Does anybody play anymore? Does anyone even remember how to play? Why oh why would you think that describing a sport that has been dead for centuries would inspire patriotism? Wait don't answer that! I know the answer and it is still absurd. I mean, really, would you try to inspire patriotism in Mexicans by talking to them about those crazy death sports that the Meso Americans played? I'm sure your average Mexican citizen would call you loco if you promised to bring those sports back as a way of inspiring hope in them. I know, bad anology. You don't kill the losing team in baseball, but you get my point.
And another thing, why are people still living in old, half destroyed houses after 200 years? People build, people repair, people rebuild. Societies do not set up in half destroyed ruins, sleeping on pre Armageddon beds for the rest of their existence. Megaton was neat, I liked it, but places like Canterbury Commons, Paradise Falls, and a whole bunch of other cities are just absurd. It's been 200 years, move on already!
6) Prewar technology and weapons still work
The idea that machines never age and they can just last forever is an old, flawed, faulty science fiction idea from the 70s. Machines may not "age" like people do, but parts break over time with regular use, mineral deposits build up on guns that render then useless, circuits wear down, and many metals do rust. Time wears down all things, be it mountain or machine. Have any of you tried to use a 200 year old weapon? I mean really just picked up a 200 year old weapon and tried to kill something with it? Or how about a 200 year old gun? Without even servicing it or refurbishing it, have you tried to load and shoot it? No, you wouldn't even think about doing that because you don't know what might happen. Forget Indiana Jones, really old technology build by old civilizations does not keep working after hundreds or even thousands of years. Especially if it is a complex piece of machinery, I don't care who built it. Sure a sun dial may still work, good as new no matter how long it has been around, but do you really think you can just pick up a bazooka that was used in World War 1 and fire it off as though it was brand new if it had been sitting in a basemant all this time without proper maintenance or upkeep? How about if it was sitting in that basemant for 200 years? Would you really trust that same bazooka to work in the year 2120? What about the ammo? Do you honestly think those 200 year-old rockets will work at all, let alone work like they were made yesterday? The Brotherhood of Steel maintaining and up keeping the technology that they guard is one thing. Finding a Chinese assault rifle in a cave, picking it up, and immediately using it to fill raiders with lead is another thing entirely.
Don't even get me started on the electrically activated doors and robots still working like new after 200 years. Like I said, parts break over time with regular use.
7 Electronics and lights still function
The fact that 200 year old light bulbs still work is extremely laughable, I don't care what type of bulb they are. I shouldn't have to explain why. How do I know that the bulbs are 200 years old? Think about it; have you seen a fully functional and productive manufacturing plant of ANY kind in the Wasteland? Who's building these new light bulbs? I also love these computers in old abandoned buildings that still turn on when you push the power button and operate like normal. Forget the fact that these things are primitive by our standards today, circuits still wear down given long enough.
I've got an even better question for all of you. Where is the electricity coming from? Last I checked all the power plants are in disuse, abandoned, and filled with feral ghouls. Where is the electricity coming from? Never mind the fact that a reactor has to be completely replaced with brand spanking new parts before it even gets close to the 200 year mark or it breaks down utterly. Parts break over time with regular use. Who is supplying power to a grid that has been in disrepair for a couple of centuries? And how does any of it still work. Do you know how much maintenance it takes to keep those grids working in the here and now when they haven't been hit with nukes? It is insanely difficult. And you think that the power plants will just keep on running 200 years after they've been abandoned? Yeah right.
And what about the generators that Tenpenny Tower, the Citadel, and other such places run on? Last I checked generators run on gasoline, and where does gasoline come from when society collapses? Nowhere, that's where. And don't tell me it's a nuclear generator. Let me explain to you the whole point of a nuclear reactor: it's to boil water. I'm not kidding you. The reactor superheats the water, and then super pressurized super hot steam is channeled through pipes to turn a turbine like a water mill, which generates electricity. Where is the water in these generators? Where is the cooling tower to re-condense the water to be boiled again? I'm telling you, these generators run on pixie dust! Pixie dust solves everything!

Anyway, that's it for me. If you guys have anything that you would like to add or comment on, you know what to do. And to those of you who want to tell me, "It's only fiction, shut up and enjoy the game," I say to you, I have/do enjoy the game, and now I'm enjoying geeking out over its implausibilities. Enjoy!

Vegetation came back to Chernobyl because there was surrounding vegetation. There were bombs dropped all over killing all the plants then on top of it, the top soil was blown away so plants couldn't grow back because there was little soil that could actually be used.Another thing about Chernobly plants growing there absorbed radiation when they grew back, plants can grow from iradiated water just not if its too severe.
On the topic of the generators, they could be water powered after all, Tenpenny could have some underground lake running beneath it, after all they have purified water. And the citadel sits next to a lake, It's entirely possible
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helen buchan
 
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Post » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:00 pm

Certainly, Fallout 3's depiction of a world 200 years after a nuclear war is in no way unrealistic, even disregarding the science-fiction elements like energy weapons and super mutants. Really, in many ways it would indeed be more plausible to say it was 200 years after the nuclear war, but I suppose Bethesda wanted to set it later than earlier games so that they could market it as a sequel, and so that the Enclave could be in it. However, it's important to note that Fallout has never been about creating a realistic vision of post apocalyptic life. The fun thing about fiction is that it doesn't have any obligation to be realistic. While certainly, some works of fiction will make an effort to be as realistic as possible, and make this a major selling point, other works will often do unrealistic things for the sake of artistic license, perception, entertainment, budget, or censorship. In the case of works set in science-fiction or fantasy worlds, this is especially excusable, and in fact audiences may find it more jarring if they break their own laws than reality's, even if their laws seem completely stupid if you apply real life logic. This can be especially true for video games, as whereas movies or books can get by just telling good stories, video games need to have fun gameplay, plus since the stories of many games are just use as an excuse for your character to kill lots of enemies anyway, the plot doesn't even have to make sense. Therefore, there are certain http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AcceptableBreaksFromReality in games, and some unrealistic aspects of Fallout 3 can be excused because of this.

First off, technology working after 200 years. While realistically, prewar items that have not been used for 200 years wouldn't work, the game wouldn't be nearly as fun if you if it were like this. After all, you'll probably note that in Fallout 3, no one is making laser guns, assault rifles, miniguns, or any of those other things, so all the guns you find have probably been around before the war, though the ones being used by people have likely been restored by the people using them, if prewar weapons didn't work, the players' arsenal would be restricted to whatever weapons people still make (which in Fallout 3's case, appears to be limited to the ones you can create from schematics.) and maybe a few weapons that don't have any complex moving parts. Also, then you wouldn't be able to find hidden caches of prewar weapons or anything, which would make exploring feel less rewarding. Of course, this is just in regards to weapons, as to other technology, if all robots had stopped working, that would remove one entire category of enemies from the game, and if various prewar machines weren't working, that would mean less options for the player, as you couldn't do things like hack a terminal to deactivate turrets protecting a place, or repair prewar mechanisms and use them for your own purposes. The lights on the other hand are probably just still working so that many locations don't become completely dark.

As to ghouls, while radiation won't do that to you in real life, it does in Fallout, ghouls were around in earlier Fallout games and they still worked that way, after all. One thing that must be noted is that Fallout was never meant to be a vision of a future that would be plausible to modern people. Instead, it's heavily based on a '50s vision of the future, that's why computers look primitive compared to what we use now (People in the 1950s wouldn't have anticipated the advancements in computer technology made in recent years, after all.) why you see all those giant mutated insects, and why Three Dog never plays any music made later than the '50s on the radio. If you watch '50s science-fiction and horror movies, you'll probably note that radiation causing mutations in a normal creature is a common explanation for the monster, especially in B movies (In which, incidentally, the giant ants and scorpions would be pretty at home.) of course, now we know that radiation is more likely to kill you than turn you into a Hollywood monster, but at the time, the average populace didn't know all we know about radiation, and I'm sure the whole fear of nuclear war also made anything with words like "atomic" or "nuclear" get people's attention very easily. If you apply modern science to it, radiation producing ghouls would seem unrealistic, but from the perspective of someone in the 1950s, it might seem quite acceptable.

In regards to the wasteland, Bethesda probably wanted to convey the feeling of desolation, and felt that living plants would go against it. Personally, I feel that a skilled artist could still get the point across without making the wasteland look completely lifeless.

As to baseball, who is to say that no one plays it anymore? There are baseballs all over the place, baseball bats, baseball gloves... and it's not like all prewar knowledge vanished the moment the balls fell. It seems plausible that all those people who seem to be trying to make postwar life like prewar life again could decide to play it.

If i'm not mistaken the food had someting in it that gave the food a 200 year shelf life.


That handwave fails to explain why it hasn't already been eaten by hungry wastelanders well before you come by. it's not like the prewar food in the game is kept sealed and locked away in some hidden place that no human has set foot in before you, most of it is lying in plain sight on the shelves of supermarkets, or in refrigerators, if it was still good to eat, someone would have eaten it already. Keep in mind of course that since none of the facilities that produce these foods are active anymore, the supply of it is limited, so even if there aren't enough people around to eat it quickly, over time it will inevitably all be consumed, or it will reach a point where even Science! can't keep it edible, whichever happens first.

If all the plants die, then there's no seeds to bring the plants back.


If all the plants die, there's also no plants to produce more oxygen for people to breathe, SO EVERYONE WOULD DIE DUE TO THERE BEING NO OXYGEN TO BREATHE. In other words, there are still living plants somewhere, and no just in Oasis, that's not enough to support human life everywhere
Spoiler
Besides, it seems like the trees only started growing recently after Harold got there, yet people still had oxygen to breathe before that.
Even if all the plants in the Capital Wasteland had died, the seeds from other plants in other places where thast didn't happen should have spread to the Capital Wasteland after 200 years.

Wait, what? Would you please sneak into Chernobyl (since it's still a sealed-off area), without any suits on but your mere clothes and stay there for a week? Then after a year, after you feel the results of the radiation tell us how you think about it? Chernobyl is still heavily irradiated mate.


It's still heavily irradiated, of course, but it hasn't been two hundred years since the Chernobyl disaster, but what happened in Chernobyl is very different from what happened in Fallout 3. In Chernobyl, it was a nuclear reactor that exploded (and not in an explosion like the bomb in Megaton, mind you, despite what some fiction wants you to think, nuclear reactors aren't nuclear bombs, and a nuclear reactor related disaster will not produce the same results as a nuclear bomb.) aside from the fact that the reactor was designed to be a reactor, not a bomb, the radioative materials used in Fallout's nuclear weapons were likely different from what was used in the power plant, and the radiation released by them would also likely not last for the same amount of time, calling the nuclear war in Fallout 600 Chernobyls exploding all over the world is a pretty inaccurate description.

It must be remembered that, as has been said, nuclear weapons are designed to flatten cities, meaning, produce a really large explosion, they also produce a large amount of radiation, but that's because of how they work, it generally isn't their main function, bombs are, after all, usually made to blow stuff up.

Some people play this game because it's kinda like Oblivion with guns. (They're the ones who want to import every single COD game and Counterstrike as well).'

Some people play it because they like Fallout.


And some people play it because they just like good games and don't care what it's labeled as or what games it resembles.
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Mandy Muir
 
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Post » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:17 am

Not everything you mention can be rationalized but there are a few that can:

1) The Food issue: it's all been irradiated which has preserved it's yummy goodness for centuries to come....besides, look closely at a box of Kraft Mac n cheese....I GUARANTEE you that stuff would last for at least a century...and that's without rads...heck I've had a box on my shelf for over two years and I wouldnt hesitate to eat it.....

2) The Foliage issue: As someone else stated, this was a FULL SCALE nuclear war, not just some radioactive steam escaping from a reactor core...what the game designers have depicted (and I believe, very well btw) is Nuclear Winter which as science has contended for years now would be the end result of a full scale nuclear holocaust

3) The Society issue: As a bit of a Medieval history buff myself, I would take exception to your premise that World society and culture had an "easy" time moving forward after the collapse of Rome. The generally accepted date of the end of Rome is 496 AD....Europe was easily in disarray and chaos for many years after...yes there were pockets of organization and culture (just like there may be outside of Captiol Wasteland) like Byzantium but in actuality it could be argued that Europe was clearly an in an unorganized chaotic state until Charlemagne in 772 AD and gee...that's just about 300 years after the fall of Rome...

4) The Technology, Electricity & weapons issue: At first glance it's hard to wrap your mind around, HOWEVER, you're just not giving the people of the Wastes enough credit....technology can be rebuilt and repaired and there are clearly many people left who have the talent to do so...see ole Walter for instance =)
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Victor Oropeza
 
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Post » Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:07 am

Have you played fallout 1 and 2 most of the stuff you talked about in your intro can be awnsered by playing them. Food in fallout lasts along time because some unknown food process that makes stuff last. Better question why has it not all been eaten over 200 years. Fallout 1/2 and tactics takes place during that big "plot hole" as you call it.
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Britta Gronkowski
 
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Post » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:24 am

You mention Chernobl (sic)

What is interesting about that is the doom sayers said the area around it would be redioactive for our liftimes and maybe more. That plants and animals would be killed off for lifetime after lifetime etc, etc. However that has not happened. The area is coming back just fine and few of the doom sayers were correct.
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Ben sutton
 
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Post » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:22 am

You mention Chernobl (sic)

What is interesting about that is the doom sayers said the area around it would be redioactive for our liftimes and maybe more. That plants and animals would be killed off for lifetime after lifetime etc, etc. However that has not happened. The area is coming back just fine and few of the doom sayers were correct.

Yes, but if you read some of the information on that website that was posted people can not live there still. The girl who rides her motorcycle through the area is relegated to the road, and has to carry a gieger counter. The rad levels in the area are still above normal. While plant and animal life has returned to some degree it is still unknown as to what effects the radiation has on them.
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Baylea Isaacs
 
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