ABOs mods

Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:37 am

I've been using your Realistic Fatigue since you started making them practically - then I went on a hiatus from Oblivion for a year (everything just kept on crashing after lv20 back then) and one can really notice how much the generally knowledge has improved over that year.

Anyhow, just love Realistic Fatigue and am glad you still are here and still am working on it.

And thanks for your reply on "Remove item without crashes, Help me resolve a 2-year long problem" although I still haven't gotten around changing the scripts to not add and remove tokens ans such. I still wonder what exactly Migck did to make Hrmm's horse armor work.

Cheers!
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ShOrty
 
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Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:03 pm

I set the trip/stagger to minimum, as I thought it was happening too often in the last version. Now, it's just right--only occasionaly giving you a trip or a stagger, reminding you it's cool, without it being done every game session.

There are still some things I want to tweak about the trip mechanics, but I'm not entirely sure if what's there is good enough to not bother. Mostly I'm not happy with the maths of how I'm currently doing it, and I have a better model, but if the current simple one is good enough I'll probably not bother switching. I might post a big question about about this later but in the mean time if people could tell me what trip/stagger settings they like and why, that would greatly help.
What I'm having a problem with is the doggone horse. What I'd like to do is not have RF affect the horse at all. I want the vanilla horse back. But, I can't give up RF for all the other wonderful things it does.

I've been using Prior M's paint horse. As soon as I mount it, the horse whinnies, indicating it's taking damage. Walking or trotting is a nightmare. It whinnies all the time.

I use the trick where I "SetAV Fatigue 600", and that worked with the last version of RF. It doesn't seem to work that well with the newer version.

I decided to get a new horse, so I got a Bay horse from Skingrad. In a test, I road her hard, cross country (because I want to be able to do that), and now the horse is the same as the paint horse. Whinny, whinny, whinny.

Is there some setting--something really high--that I can set my horse to so that RF really doesn't affect the horse at all? I want RF, with all it does, without affecting horses. I'd like the vanilla horses back.

I sent you an e-mail, but I know you like this type of feedback out in the open so that your answers get the most use.

Note that RF now sets your horse fatigue for you, and will override any "SetAV fatigue" you do at the console when the ability is (re)added to your horse. The whinny sound doesn't mean it's taking damage, it's just warning you it's sore, tired, and/or overloaded.

I'm not entirely sure why it is so bad for you... horses should never whinny when walking except just after a hard uphill ride before they have caught their breath again. Riding should be sustainable over level ground, and only galloping uphill should drain fatigue and cause whinnying. If you are encumbered to the whazoo a horse might start wheezing on the flat, but it should still not have problems walking. There are some new settings you can use that will adjust the effects on horses, but I'd rather figure out why it is so bad for you.

Did you install RF using OBMM? If not your RealisticFatigue.ini will need manual editing of all the fields into suitable numbers. In v2.3 some new settings were introduced so you cannot just use your old version of this file. Maybe your horse is badly wounded? Are you using any horse mods that might be doing something like encumbering horses? What settings are you using in RealisticFatigue.ini, and can you post it? Can you do the following tests for me and report back results;

1) at the console, point at your horse, type TDT and then SDT 9. This will show all your horse stats.

2) check your horse's fatigue, health, endurance, and encumbrance. Fatigue should be something like 300/300, health should be about 200/200, endurance should be 50/50, and encumbrance should be about 0/400. If you are using the latest saddlebags mod you may see encumbrance of about 40/400. If your horse is badly wounded you would see reduced health and reduced fatigue, which would explain the problems... heal your horse (at last, a use for those "heal others" spells).

3) Hop on your horse. You should see fatigue immediately drop a bit because of the "rider encumbrance", but note that encumbrance reported by the debug text should not change. The fatigue drop should be worst-case about 25%, but more likely only 10%, depending on how encumbered you are. If it is worse than this, at the console check the output of "show aaRealisticFatigue.horseEncumbMult"... it should be 0.2. Using default settings the fatigue drop percentage should only be;

riderWeight = fActorStrengthEncumbranceMult*100 / encumbMult
encumbMax = fActorStrengthEncumbranceMult * horse.strength
fatigueDrain% = (horseEncumbMult * (horse.encumbrance + player.encumbrance + player.getScale * riderWeight) / encumbMax)^2

4) Ride your horse around, keeping an eye on his fatigue. You should see his fatigue stay pretty stable even when galloping on the flat. Only uphill sections should cause his fatigue to drop. His fatigue should rise back up to the limit when walking, even walking uphill.

Since your horse starts complaining as soon as you mount, I suspect the encumbrance fatigue drain is where the problem is happening. If you are using default settings, I suspect your horse is badly wounded. If you are not using default settings, it may be that you have set fActorStrengthEncumbranceMult (which affects how much can be lifted) and/or encumbMult (which effects how much a rider weighs) very low.

I think I might have just spotted a problem with how riderWeight is calculated... if encumbMult is set to zero (to turn off encumbrance effects) we get a divide by zero... I'll need to fix that. However it should still be working correctly for default settings.
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Maeva
 
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Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:10 pm

Anyhow, just love Realistic Fatigue and am glad you still are here and still am working on it.

And thanks for your reply on "Remove item without crashes, Help me resolve a 2-year long problem" although I still haven't gotten around changing the scripts to not add and remove tokens ans such. I still wonder what exactly Migck did to make Hrmm's horse armor work.

Thanks for the thanks :-) every little bit of minor feedback like this is the reason I'm still doing it. It may just be that Migck got lucky and no one's seen a horse get unloaded at the wrong moment.

I'd also always want more feedback on what bits people do/don't like about my mods, and what settings they are using. It's little suggestions like no fatigue regeneration when swimming underwater (thanks Hyomoto) that end up becoming cool new features. If people tell me their settings preferences I can adjust the defaults and installation options so that they satisfy more people.

Which comes to my questions on the trip/stagger feature. What do people think... too much? too little? Of both trip and stagger, or just one? Does it not "ramp up" correctly, with too much or too little trip/stagger in the mid-fatigue range? I'm pretty unhappy with the maths of what I currently have... it's a simplistic hack. However, it has the benefit of being simple, so if people think it's OK, I'll leave it as is. Otherwise, I will change it to use a better model that I think will;

* give more chance of trip/stagger with very low fatigue, but less trip/stagger chance with mid-level fatigue.

* give more trip/stagger chance when running backwards into steps/ledges, but less trip/stagger chance when running forwards.

* give more trip/stagger chance when you are running backwards into a ledge while fatigued, but less trip/stagger chance when just running backwards, or just running into a ledge, or walking backwards into a ledge.

* make agility have a more noticeable affect on trip/stagger chance, particularly for steps/ledges and running backwards.

Some other ideas I'm toying with for Realistic Fatigue;

1) add athletics/acrobatics/speed drains to reduce movement for low fatigue, and reduce fatigue burns for the reduced movement. The drains will probably use enchanted slotless tokens. Realistic fatigue models show energy burned is proportional to speed, and you run slower when fatigued.

2) add reduce fatigue burn for attacking with low fatigue. Realistic fatigue models show energy burned is proportional to how hard you hit, and you hit softer when fatigued.

3) add extra fatigue regeneration for low fatigue. Realistic fatigue models show that fatigue recovers proportional to how fatigued you are, so after exertion you recover more in the first 30 seconds than in the next 30 seconds.

4) fix horse speeds... why are horses so slow? I'm not sure if this would be best done by adjusting creature movement game settings, or adding a special fortify speed ability to horses.

5) add slow health regeneration over time. This means those guys you left panting and collapsed will eventually get back up. In some ways this would probably be better in Realistic Health, but that mod currently doesn't have an affect applied to all actors that I could attach it to. Another possibility would be to have a slow health burn for very low health, and a slow health return for mid->high health. This would mean those collapsed dudes eventually bleed-out and die if they don't get assistance, but if they are OK they recover to full health over time.

These are some of the ideas I'm considering for Realistic Health. Thus far I've avoided any sort of hunger/sleep mod stuff because there are already plenty of them, but maybe it would work better if integrated into this mod;

6) add a slow health burn for hunger and low fatigue. This means your health will drop at a rate proportional to how hungry and active you are, as you burn energy without the fuel for it. Provided you are not hungry, the slow health regeneration added to Realistic Fatigue would restore the hunger-related health damage over time. I might also give hunger disease like visual effects.

7) add a slow fatigue burn for lack of sleep. I'm not entirely sure how this will be done, but maybe just reduce the normal fatigue regeneration rate slowly the more tired you get, until you collapse from it and fall asleep. I might also give tiredness a disease like visual effect.

Some other things I'm considering;

8) Make Carry Sacks actually work.

9) Make a meta Realistic Effects mod that includes RL/RF/RH bundled together as a single RealisticEffects.esm.

The order I will tackle these will depend on what people most request in followups to this thread... so vote for your preferred features now :-) Also, if anyone out there wants to contribute more directly to any of my mods I'm totally open to giving other people upload access on them so they can help release new versions with their own fixes etc.
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Michael Russ
 
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Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:50 pm

1) add athletics/acrobatics/speed drains to reduce movement for low fatigue, and reduce fatigue burns for the reduced movement. The drains will probably use enchanted slotless tokens. Realistic fatigue models show energy burned is proportional to speed, and you run slower when fatigued.

2) add reduce fatigue burn for attacking with low fatigue. Realistic fatigue models show energy burned is proportional to how hard you hit, and you hit softer when fatigued.

These don't make sense to me. If I'm exhausted and continue to push myself to my (exhausted) limits, I'm not magically going to get better; I'll continue to get more exhausted and eventually collapse from it.
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Sophie Louise Edge
 
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Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:31 pm

These don't make sense to me. If I'm exhausted and continue to push myself to my (exhausted) limits, I'm not magically going to get better; I'll continue to get more exhausted and eventually collapse from it.

These come out of researching how fatigue really works in human beings. You don't "get better" as you push yourself to your limits, you just approach your limits slower the closer you get to them. Fatigue is when a fraction of your muscles are exhausted and hence unavailable to apply to actions like running/hitting etc. This is why you slow down and hit softer as you get fatigued, and it's physically not possible to run as fast or hit as hard as when you are fully rested. With each step or hit, a fraction of the muscles you used for that action become exhausted. This means that as you get fatigued and use less of your muscles, the less fatigue you burn. Also, every second a fraction of your exhausted muscles recover, which means your fatigue recovers faster the more fatigued you are. This is why it's nearly impossible to run till you collapse... the more fatigued you get, the slower you run, the less fatigue you burn, and the faster your fatigue recovers. In practice you slow down until the recovery rate equals your burn rate, which is your sustainable marathon pace. Of course this model is ignoring the psychological part of it, where our minds refuse to let our bodies get that far into "fatigue debt" in the first place. This is also only the "short term energy model" part of the equation... there is also a "long term energy model" that takes into account metabolizing food and body-fats to fuel the short-term-model fatigue recovery.

With respect to Oblivion, it actually has pretty good "reduced hit for reduced fatigue" modeling... the amount of damage you do goes down with your fatigue. However, it doesn't correctly model the reduced fatigue burn from hitting softer. With running/jumping, Oblivion doesn't correctly model the reduced speed/height for low fatigue, so Realistic Fatigue currently just burns at the full speed rate regardless of your fatigue levels. These two changes, together with the increased fatigue return rate for low fatigue, would make Realistic Fatigue more accurately model real human fatigue. Of course that wouldn't necessarily make it more fun... which is something else to take into account.

Edit: I forgot to mention... one other benefit of this would be dumb actor AI would not push actors to exhaustion as much... as they charge blindly up the hill towards you they would slow down and have a bit of fatigue left when they reach you. Their stupid repeated exhausted power attacks and dodges would be feeble and slow, but also not not leave them constantly with zero fatigue. In Realistic Fatigue v2.3 I included some game setting tweaks to try and make the AI a bit smarter about conserving fatigue, but this would probably help even more.
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maddison
 
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Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:20 pm

------->EDIT - I used too many quotes so I just copied and pasted with my replies as "------->" END

Thanks for the thanks :-) every little bit of minor feedback like this is the reason I'm still doing it. It may just be that Migck got lucky and no one's seen a horse get unloaded at the wrong moment.

I'd also always want more feedback on what bits people do/don't like about my mods, and what settings they are using. It's little suggestions like no fatigue regeneration when swimming underwater (thanks Hyomoto) that end up becoming cool new features. If people tell me their settings preferences I can adjust the defaults and installation options so that they satisfy more people.[/quote]


-------> With a new character it always felt as it didn't help that much to sit down to recover; maybe someway to make the disparity's between standing and sitting bigger. I haven't really checked with my lv20+ character since I rarely sit down nowadays :P Also with a new character the fatigue burns really fast - maybe implement some way to have it less rigorous in the first five levels or soo? I am using a mod that does bring down your PC's values in the beginning so that had some impact too - made allot of fatigue potions back then...<-----

Which comes to my questions on the trip/stagger feature. What do people think... too much? too little? Of both trip and stagger, or just one? Does it not "ramp up" correctly, with too much or too little trip/stagger in the mid-fatigue range? I'm pretty unhappy with the maths of what I currently have... it's a simplistic hack. However, it has the benefit of being simple, so if people think it's OK, I'll leave it as is. Otherwise, I will change it to use a better model that I think will;

* give more chance of trip/stagger with very low fatigue, but less trip/stagger chance with mid-level fatigue.[/quote]


-------> Sounds good to me; makes you keep tabs on how much you are burning - maybe even make it worthwhile to stop running during combat and start walking.<--------

* give more trip/stagger chance when running backwards into steps/ledges, but less trip/stagger chance when running forwards.[/quote]


-------> Allot more when running backwards into ledges yeah; took a step backwards yesterday at the gym and stepped on some equipment - I staggered; running backwards into a step would flop me over any day in the week. Less or the same when running forward yes - I can't remember tripping in game when running forward so I don't know if it needs to be even less than that though.<-----------

* give more trip/stagger chance when you are running backwards into a ledge while fatigued, but less trip/stagger chance when just running backwards, or just running into a ledge, or walking backwards into a ledge.[/quote]


-------> True; you can parry allot better when you are not fatigued and your muscles are alert.<---------

* make agility have a more noticeable affect on trip/stagger chance, particularly for steps/ledges and running backwards.[/quote]


-------> Mmmm, makes sense.... But if the effect is already in use..... Maybe make the chance less up to a point - there should always be some chance to tripp/stagger.<----------

Some other ideas I'm toying with for Realistic Fatigue;

1) add athletics/acrobatics/speed drains to reduce movement for low fatigue, and reduce fatigue burns for the reduced movement. The drains will probably use enchanted slotless tokens. Realistic fatigue models show energy burned is proportional to speed, and you run slower when fatigued.[/quote]


-------> That sounds just great; perfect!!!<-----

2) add reduce fatigue burn for attacking with low fatigue. Realistic fatigue models show energy burned is proportional to how hard you hit, and you hit softer when fatigued.

3) add extra fatigue regeneration for low fatigue. Realistic fatigue models show that fatigue recovers proportional to how fatigued you are, so after exertion you recover more in the first 30 seconds than in the next 30 seconds.[/quote]


-------> A good thing for low level PC's as well. Don't see any flaw in your reasoning.<---------

4) fix horse speeds... why are horses so slow? I'm not sure if this would be best done by adjusting creature movement game settings, or adding a special fortify speed ability to horses.[/quote]


--------> Kuvrtee has the "Horse speed equals player speed" that effects it walking speed - which is what really anoid me. The speed when galloping seems alright to me - but if you can impair some more stamina on the horses you can outrun most bandits since your horse will last longer. Right now I am not a member of the Mages guild and nowhere can I find "Fortify fatigue on other" spell anywhere, so my only option is too get into the guild eventually and make it myself, heh.<--------

5) add slow health regeneration over time. This means those guys you left panting and collapsed will eventually get back up. In some ways this would probably be better in Realistic Health, but that mod currently doesn't have an affect applied to all actors that I could attach it to. Another possibility would be to have a slow health burn for very low health, and a slow health return for mid->high health. This would mean those collapsed dudes eventually bleed-out and die if they don't get assistance, but if they are OK they recover to full health over time.[/quote]


-------> Would be a nice feature.<--------

These are some of the ideas I'm considering for Realistic Health. Thus far I've avoided any sort of hunger/sleep mod stuff because there are already plenty of them, but maybe it would work better if integrated into this mod;

6) add a slow health burn for hunger and low fatigue. This means your health will drop at a rate proportional to how hungry and active you are, as you burn energy without the fuel for it. Provided you are not hungry, the slow health regeneration added to Realistic Fatigue would restore the hunger-related health damage over time. I might also give hunger disease like visual effects.

7) add a slow fatigue burn for lack of sleep. I'm not entirely sure how this will be done, but maybe just reduce the normal fatigue regeneration rate slowly the more tired you get, until you collapse from it and fall asleep. I might also give tiredness a disease like visual effect.[/quote]


------> Again. I'm using Kuvertee's "Eat and Sleep" which uses fatigue effects. I've "upped" the drain quite a bit, especially for sleep deprivation and it plays really well with Realistic fatigue. Why reinvent the wheel eh? Not only that, it uses some nifty OBSE scripting so it recognizes food from all kind of mods; and you can cook it, clean it...... yeah, I'm pretty happy with that one too as you can see.<--------

Some other things I'm considering;

8) Make Carry Sacks actually work.

9) Make a meta Realistic Effects mod that includes RL/RF/RH bundled together as a single RealisticEffects.esm.

The order I will tackle these will depend on what people most request in followups to this thread... so vote for your preferred features now :-) Also, if anyone out there wants to contribute more directly to any of my mods I'm totally open to giving other people upload access on them so they can help release new versions with their own fixes etc.
[/quote]


--------> Right now I'm playing with all settings on "normal". Can't think off any constructive feedback right now. More levels of panting noises. Different panting voices for different races - have a listen to "Diverse Voices", using an SFX program to do changes as well as new recordings perhaps. Animal noises when they are panting..... Okey, so that was allot of panting; was the only thing I thought of that you have not yourself already mentioned, and it is not THAT important.<--------


----> Cheers! <-----
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Anne marie
 
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Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:28 pm

There are still some things I want to tweak about the trip mechanics, but I'm not entirely sure if what's there is good enough to not bother. Mostly I'm not happy with the maths of how I'm currently doing it, and I have a better model, but if the current simple one is good enough I'll probably not bother switching. I might post a big question about about this later but in the mean time if people could tell me what trip/stagger settings they like and why, that would greatly help.


I actually really like the trip/slip mechanics when set on low. They don't occur that often (at default, I think the effect becomes a pain in the butt, especially at low level). But, set on low, it seems "just right".

I jumped up on a moss covered rock one time and slipped, but caught myself. Didn't trip. That was really cool.

The one thing I don't like is when my horse stumbles. I'd like to stop that from happening. The horse fall should be even more rare--to where it barely ever happens.





Note that RF now sets your horse fatigue for you, and will override any "SetAV fatigue" you do at the console when the ability is (re)added to your horse. The whinny sound doesn't mean it's taking damage, it's just warning you it's sore, tired, and/or overloaded.


That makes sense, now, that the SetAV Fatigue trick didn't work on the new version.





I'm not entirely sure why it is so bad for you... horses should never whinny when walking except just after a hard uphill ride before they have caught their breath again. Riding should be sustainable over level ground, and only galloping uphill should drain fatigue and cause whinnying. If you are encumbered to the whazoo a horse might start wheezing on the flat, but it should still not have problems walking.


I'm using RF, so I'm not that encumbered--I've probably got about 50% of my carry limit.



There are some new settings you can use that will adjust the effects on horses, but I'd rather figure out why it is so bad for you.


OK, let's work on it. :hubbahubba:



Did you install RF using OBMM?


I used Omods both times. When I installed the newest version, I simply deactivated the older omod (and deleted it from the file folder later).



Maybe your horse is badly wounded?


This could be the case. I thought the horse regenerates fully to 100% help after a day of rest. Is that not true with RF?



Are you using any horse mods that might be doing something like encumbering horses?


I'm using no other horse mods. I tried the Mounted Combat mod for the variable speed for horses that mod offers. Butl, I deactivated it using OBMM when I installed the newest RF omod via OBMM.



What settings are you using in RealisticFatigue.ini, and can you post it? Can you do the following tests for me and report back results;


I'll get back with you.
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Honey Suckle
 
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Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:03 pm

What settings are you using in RealisticFatigue.ini, and can you post it?


Haven't done the tests yet, but here's my entire RF ini file:



; RealisticFatigue.ini
; ====================
;
; Version: 2.03
; Author: Donovan Baarda (abo@minkirri.apana.org.au)
; Home: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=13879
;
; The descriptions of these settings refer to base fatigueLevel, healthLevel,
; encumbLevel, and tripLevel values that are scaled and limited between 0->1;
;
; fatigueLevel = 1.0 - fatigue/fatigueBase
; healthLevel = 1.0 - health/healthBase
; encumbLevel = encumbrance / encumberanceMax
; tripLevel = (fatigueLevel^2 + isMovingBackwards +
; 0.5*(isRunning + isMovingSidewards) - (agility + luckModifier)/100) / 2.5

; Indicator Settings
; ------------------
;
; These settings control the blur/pant effect intensities.

; This sets the visual blur intensity. Higher values mean blur starts sooner
; for low fatigue/health. Setting these to 0.0 will turn off the blur effect.
set aaRFIndicator.fatigueBlurGain to 0.5 ; recommended 0.5
set aaRFIndicator.healthBlurGain to 1.0 ; recommended 1.0

; This sets the player panting intensity. Higher values mean panting starts
; sooner for low fatigue. Setting this to 0.0 will turn off player panting.
set aaRFIndicator.fatiguePantGain to 1.0 ; recommended 1.0

; This sets the NPC panting intensity. Higher values mean NPC's start panting
; sooner for low fatigue. Setting this to 0.0 will turn off NPC panting.
set aaRealisticFatigue.npcPantGain to 1.0 ; recommended 1.0


; SKill Advancement Settings
; --------------------------
;
; These control how much experience strength, endurance, and acrobatics skills
; get for for high encumbrance, low fatigue, and tripping chances.

; This sets how much experience strength skills get for high encumbrance.
; experience = encumbLevel^2 * fSkillStrengthEncumb * dt
set aaRealisticFatigue.fSkillStrengthEncumb to 0.0 ; recommended 0.01

; This sets how much experience endurance skills get for low fatigue.
; experience = fatigueLevel^2 * fSkillEnduranceFatigue * dt
set aaRealisticFatigue.fSkillEnduranceFatigue to 0.0 ; recommended 0.01

; This sets how much experience the acrobatics skill gets for trip chances.
; experience = tripLevel * fSkillAgilityTrip
set aaRealisticFatigue.fSkillAgilityTrip to 0.0 ; recommended 0.01


; Simple Fatigue Settings
; -----------------------
;
; These settings are high level settings that users may want to adjust. When
; running in mode 1 they will be used to automatically calculate and set
; fatigue related game settings. When running in mode 0 game settings will
; not be automatically set, and can be set manually in the Advanced Fatigue
; Settings section below or they can be left unset to use the default
; settings or settings from other mods.

; Set the RealisticLeveling operating mode. The possible values are;
; 0 = manual game settings, 1 = automatic game settings

set aaRealisticFatigue.mode to 1 ; recommended = 1

; These controls how much fatigue affects things like attacking. Setting this
; to 0.0 will mean fatigue has no effect. Setting this to 1.0 means attacking
; with zero fatigue will cause no damage.
setGS fFatigueMult 0.8 ; vanilla = 0.5

; This sets the encumbrance limit in feathers per unit strength. Note that
; for clutter 1Kg ~= 2feathers, but for weapons and armour 1Kg ~= 4feathers.
; I recommend setting this to 5.0 x encumbMult unless you are using a mod that
; changes weapon and armour weights significantly.
setGS fActorStrengthEncumbranceMult 8.0 ; vanilla = 5.0

; This is the number of times your own body weight lifted when at 100%
; encumbrance. The higher this is set the more effect encumbrance will have
; on fatigue. Setting this to 0.0 will turn off encumbrance fatigue burns.
set aaRealisticFatigue.encumbMult to 1.6 ; recommended = 1.6

; This is the base "rate of fatigue recovery" with endurance 100. The higher
; this is set the faster fatigue will recover.
set aaRealisticFatigue.fatigueReturn to 8.0 ; recommended = 8.0

; This is the base "rate of fatigue burn" when running unencumbered. The
; higher this is set the faster fatigue will be burned.
set aaRealisticFatigue.fatigueBurn to 4.0 ; recommended = 4.0

; This is the multiplier for fatigue burned standing per bodyweight of
; encumbrance^2 relative to running.
set aaRealisticFatigue.standMult to 1.0 ; recommended = 1.0

; This is the multiplier for fatigue burned walking relative to running.
set aaRealisticFatigue.walkMult to 0.25 ; recommended = 0.25

; This is the multiplier for fatigue burned jumping relative to running.
set aaRealisticFatigue.jumpMult to 2.0 ; recommended = 2.0

; This is the multiplier for fatigue burned climbing relative to running.
set aaRealisticFatigue.climbMult to 1.5 ; recommended = 1.5

; This is the multiplier for fatigue burned for combat relative to running.
set aaRealisticFatigue.combatMult to 1.0 ; recommended = 1.0

; This is the multiplier for fatigue drained by low health. Setting this
; slightly higher than 1.0 means actors will collapse just before they die.
; fatigueHealthDrain = healthDrainGain * healthLevel^2 * fatigueMax
set aaRealisticFatigue.healthDrainGain to 1.05 ; recommended = 1.05

; This is the multiplier for fatigue drained by encumbrance.
; fatigueEncumbDrain = encumbDrainGain * encumbLevel^2 * fatigueMax
set aaRealisticFatigue.encumbDrainGain to 1.0 ; recommended = 1.0

; This sets the maximum trip chance for for moving with low fatigue. It is
; the max probability of trip/sec when running backwards with zero fatigue.
; tripChance = tripGain * tripLevel
set aaRealisticFatigue.tripGain to 0.01 ; recommended 0.05

; This sets the maximum stagger chance for moving with low fatigue. It is
; the max probability of stagger/sec when running backwards with zero fatigue.
; staggerChance = staggerGain * tripLevel
set aaRealisticFatigue.staggerGain to 0.05 ; recommended 0.25

; This sets the maximum fatigue drained by tripping. It affects how long
; it takes to stand after tripping.
; tripFatigueDrain = -fatigue - fatigueLevel2 * tripFatigueDamage
set aaRealisticFatigue.tripFatigueDamage to 16 ; recommended 16

; This is the multiplier for horse fatigue. It scales rider and equipment
; weights for fatigue effects to account for horse's larger body sizes.
; encumb = horseEncumbMult * (encumb + riderEncumb + rider.GetScale * riderWeight)
set aaRealisticFatigue.horseEncumbMult to 0.2 ; recommended 0.2


; Advanced Fatigue Settings
; -------------------------
;
; These are advanced settings for tweaking fine details when running in
; mode 0. DO NOT LOOK AT THESE! If you look you will get confused, and there
; is no need... just set the Simple settings above and use mode 1. Changes to
; most of these settings will be ignored when running in mode 1.
;
; If you use other mods that also change these settings using an *.ini file,
; make sure they set them to the right values. You can comment out these
; settings if you prefer to use another mod to manage any of these settings.
; The formula used in mode 1 to calculate these settings is shown for each
; setting that is autocalculated. Not all settings are autocalculated.
;
; Details of these and other game settings can be found at;
;
; http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/Fatigue_Game_Settings

; These control how fast fatigue regenerates.
; fFatigueReturnBase = fatigueReturn * 0.25
; fFatigueReturnMult = fatigueReturn * 0.0075
setGS fFatigueReturnBase 2.0 ; vanilla = 10.0
setGS fFatigueReturnMult 0.06 ; vanilla = 0.0

; These control how fast fatigue is burned when standing. Note that they are
; not game settings but RealisticFatigue quest variables.
; fFatigueStandBase = 0.0
; fFatigueStandMult = standMult * encumbMult * fatigueBurn
set aaRealisticFatigue.fFatigueStandBase to 0.0
set aaRealisticFatigue.fFatigueStandMult to 6.4

; These control how fast fatigue is burned when walking. Note that they are
; not game settings but RealisticFatigue quest variables.
; fFatigueWalkBase = walkMult * fatigueBurn
; fFatigueWalkMult = walkMult * 0.7 * encumbMult * fatigueBurn
set aaRealisticFatigue.fFatigueWalkBase to 1.0
set aaRealisticFatigue.fFatigueWalkMult to 1.12

; These control how fast fatigue is burned when running.
; fFatigueRunBase = fatigueBurn
; fFatigueRunMult = 0.85 * encumbMult * fatigueBurn
setGS fFatigueRunBase 4.0 ; vanilla = 8.0
setGS fFatigueRunMult 5.44 ; vanilla = 0.0

; These control how much fatigue is burned when jumping.
; fFatigueJumpBase = jumpMult * fatigueBurn
; fFatigueJumpMult = jumpMult * encumbMult * fatigueBurn
setGS fFatigueJumpBase 8.0 ; vanilla = 30.0
setGS fFatigueJumpMult 12.8 ; vanilla = 0.0

; These control how much fatigue is burned when climbing uphill. Note that
; they are not game settings but RealisticFatigue quest variables.
; fFatigueClimbBase = climbMult * fatigueBurn
; fFatigueClimbMult = climbMult * encumbMult * fatigueBurn
set aaRealisticFatigue.fFatigueClimbBase to 4.0
set aaRealisticFatigue.fFatigueClimbMult to 6.4

; These control how much fatigue is burned when attacking.
; fFatigueAttackWeaponBase = combatMult * fatigueBurn
; fFatigueAttackWeaponMult = combatMult * 0.01 * encumbMult * fatigueBurn
setGS fFatigueAttackWeaponBase 4.0 ; vanilla = 7.0
setGS fFatigueAttackWeaponMult 0.08 ; vanilla = 0.1

; These control how much fatigue is burned when blocking.
; fFatigueBlockBase = 0.0
; fFatigueBlockMult = 0.0
; fFatigueBlockSkillBase = combatMult * 3.0 * fatigueBurn
; fFatigueBlockSkillMult = combatMult * -0.06 * fatigueBurn
setGS fFatigueBlockBase 0.0 ; vanilla = 0.0
setGS fFatigueBlockMult 0.0 ; vanilla = 1.0
setGS fFatigueBlockSkillBase 12.0 ; vanilla = 20.0
setGS fFatigueBlockSkillMult -0.24 ; vanilla = 0.0

; These control how much fatigue is burned when firing missiles.
; fMarksmanFatigueBurnPerShot = combatMult * fatigueBurn
; fMarksmanFatigueBurnPerSecond = combatMult * 2.0 * fatigueBurn
setGS fMarksmanFatigueBurnPerShot 4.0 ; vanilla = 5.0
setGS fMarksmanFatigueBurnPerSecond 8.0 ; vanilla = 15.0

; These makes the Apprentice/Journeyman/Expert/Master Athletics and Acrobatics
; fatigue perks less overpowering.
setGS fPerkAthleticsNoviceFatigueMult 1.00 ; vanilla = 1.00
setGS fPerkAthleticsApprenticeFatigueMult 0.95 ; vanilla = 0.75
setGS fPerkAthleticsJourneymanFatigueMult 0.90 ; vanilla = 0.50
setGS fPerkAthleticsixpertFatigueMult 0.85 ; vanilla = 0.25
setGS fPerkAthleticsMasterFatigueMult 0.80 ; vanilla = 0.00
setGS fPerkJumpFatigueExpertMult 0.80 ; vanilla = 0.50

; This controls how much encumbrance a rider adds to a horse. Note that
; this is not a game settings but RealisticFatigue quest variable.
; riderWeight = 100.0 * fActorStrengthEncumbranceMult/encumbMult
set aaRealisticFatigue.riderWeight to 500.0


; Advanced Movement Settings
; --------------------------
;
; These are advanced settings that control movement speeds and jumping heights.
; These should not need adjusting from the settings provided below.
;
; If you use other mods that also change these settings using an *.ini file,
; make sure they set them to the right values. You can comment out these
; settings if you prefer vanilla defaults or use another mod to manage any of
; these settings.
;
; Details of these and other game settings can be found at;
;
; http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/Movement_Game_Settings

; These settings control how high you jump. Note that 1m ~= 71units, so
; jumping 164units is 2.3m.
setGS fJumpHeightMin 64.0 ; vanilla = 64.0
setGS fJumpHeightMax 164.0 ; vanilla = 164.0

; These settings control how fast you walk and run. Note that 1m ~= 71units,
; so walking 160units/sec is 2.25m/s.
setGS fMoveCharWalkMin 107.0 ; vanilla = 90.0
setGS fMoveCharWalkMax 160.0 ; vanilla = 130.0
setGS fMoveCreatureWalkMin 5.0 ; vanilla = 5.0
setGS fMoveCreatureWalkMax 300.0 ; vanilla = 300.0
setGS fMoveRunMult 3.0 ; vanilla = 3.0
setGS fMoveRunAthleticsMult 1.0 ; vanilla = 1.0
setGS fMoveSneakMult 0.6 ; vanilla = 0.6
setGS fMoveNoWeaponMult 1.1 ; vanilla = 1.1

; These control how much equiped armour/weapons and burden/feather change
; movement speeds.
setGS fMoveWeightMin 0.0 ; vanilla = 0.0
setGS fMoveWeightMax 250.0 ; vanilla = 150.0
setGS fMoveEncumEffect 0.5 ; vanilla = 0.4
setGS fMoveEncumEffectNoWea 0.4 ; vanilla = 0.3

; These makes the Apprentice/Journeyman/Expert/Master Armour movement perks
; less overpowering.
setGS fPerkLightArmorExpertSpeedMult 0.80 ; vanilla = 0.00
setGS fPerkHeavyArmorExpertSpeedMult 0.80 ; vanilla = 0.50
setGS fPerkHeavyArmorMasterSpeedMult 0.60 ; vanilla = 0.00

; Stop MOBS NoRunBackwards quest.
;stopQuest aaNoRunBackwardsStartup


; Advanced AI Settings
; --------------------
;
; These are advanced settings that control actor AI behaviour in combat.
; These should not need adjusting from the settings provided below.
;
; If you use other mods that also change these settings using an *.ini file,
; make sure they set them to the right values. You can comment out these
; settings if you prefer vanilla defaults or use another mod to manage any of
; these settings.
;
; Details of these and other game settings can be found at;
;
; http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/Combat_Style

; These modify the chance of dodging based on encumbered walking speed.
; fAIDefaultDodgeSpeedBase = -(fMoveCharWalkMin + fMoveCharWalkMax) / 2
; fAIDefaultDodgeSpeedMult = (fMoveCharWalkMax - fMoveCharWalkMin) / 40
setGS fAIDefaultDodgeSpeedBase -133.0 ; vanilla = -110.0
setGS fAIDefaultDodgeSpeedMult 0.75 ; vanilla = 1.0

; These modify the chance of dodging and power attacking based on fatigue.
setGS fAIDefaultDodgeFatigueBase 0.0 ; vanilla = 0.0
setGS fAIDefaultDodgeFatigueMult -30.0 ; vanilla = -20.0
setGS fAIDefaultPowerAttackFatigueBase 5.0 ; vanilla = 5.0
setGS fAIDefaultPowerAttackFatigueMult -15.0 ; vanilla = -10.0
setGS fAIPowerAttackFatigueBase 15.0 ; vanilla = 15.0
setGS fAIPowerAttackFatigueMult -30.0 ; vanilla = -15.0

; This is probably the fatigue percentage at which to start restoring fatigue.
setGS iAICombatRestoreFatiguePercentage 30 ; vanilla = 30
User avatar
Petr Jordy Zugar
 
Posts: 3497
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:10 pm

Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:33 pm

Since your horse starts complaining as soon as you mount, I suspect the encumbrance fatigue drain is where the problem is happening.


OK, I started the tests, and I think I see something strange right off the bat.

All horse stats are at max, except STR 40/50 and Agility 40/50. Fatigue and Endurance are as you say above.

Health is strange. It's 1012/999. It's not hurt, it's got more points than it should. Now, I did hit the horse with a Heal Other spell before I posted to you. I was thinking the horse was hurt, too, which is why did didn't get the whinny.

Encumbrance is strange, too. It's 611/699.

Now, I mount, and Encumbrance becomes really, really strange. As soon as I mount, it drops to about 460/699 and immediately starts counting upwards to about 551. As soon as it hits 551/699, it drops again to about 460 and starts counting up to 551 in a loop.

The weight I'm carrying on my toon isn't bad at all: 207/576.

You've got my RF ini file above.
User avatar
Dan Stevens
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:00 pm

Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:07 pm

OK, I started the tests, and I think I see something strange right off the bat.

All horse stats are at max, except STR 40/50 and Agility 40/50. Fatigue and Endurance are as you say above.

Health is strange. It's 1012/999. It's not hurt, it's got more points than it should. Now, I did hit the horse with a Heal Other spell before I posted to you. I was thinking the horse was hurt, too, which is why did didn't get the whinny.

Encumbrance is strange, too. It's 611/699.

Now, I mount, and Encumbrance becomes really, really strange. As soon as I mount, it drops to about 460/699 and immediately starts counting upwards to about 551. As soon as it hits 551/699, it drops again to about 460 and starts counting up to 551 in a loop.

Wow, that is really wierd... some other mod is really playing funny-buggers with your horse! I have no idea why his max encumbrance is 699... at 40 strength and fActorStrengthEncumbranceMult=8.0 it should be 320, so something must have setBaseAv'ed it. Something is adding encumbrance to your horse... either by adding items to his inventory, burden spells, or modav'ing it. The fact that it's dynamically changing suggests that it's doing it from a script that is constantly updating it. Is your horse also very slow? Adding encumbrance like this through modav counts as "equipped weight" that will modify movement speeds. Which horse is this and what is it's speed according to tdt? The reduced strength makes the encumbrance even worse, and the reduced agility will be contributing to increased tripping.

The reason he's whinnying is he's carrying too much. I looked at your RealisticFatigue.ini and it all looks good to me. These figures and your settings mean your horse is at about 0.2*(551 + 207+ 500)/320 = 78% encumbrance when you are mounted.

Maybe this is a side effect of MMM or something? It looks pretty buggy to me... Maybe it's trying to adjust horse speeds based on encumbrance? If we can figure out what mod is doing this and why, I might be able to work around it.
User avatar
Manny(BAKE)
 
Posts: 3407
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:14 am

Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:54 am

About the horses. Using a speed drain when they get close to a set fatigue limit (preferably able to set it in the ini) instead of trip - or using trip at the very end and rarely, at 99% fatigue the horse might just want to walk. One could ride a horse to it's death but I would not really want that feature :P
But since I am using Kuvertee's horse speed adjustment when walking I guess that would conflict if you used this method when walking too - but it really just needs a slow down when galloping and then it wont conflict. Horses walk so slow originaly, whish they had a six speed shifter.

I'm using Saddlebags 3.0 and get whining and stumbling when walking uphill with horses. Seems that there carrying capacity is very sensitive.

EDIT - Right now I am using:
set aaRealisticFatigue.horseEncumbMult to 0.05 ; recommended 0.2 (prob going to up this a bit)
set aaRealisticFatigue.riderWeight to 400.0 (originally 500)
And now it is better, but needs tweaking - the horse is whiniyng quite alot, should set in later. - What does aaRealisticFatigue.RiderWeight really do when adjusting up or down? END Edit.

Cheers!
User avatar
Breanna Van Dijk
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:18 pm

Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:04 am

About the horses. Using a speed drain when they get close to a set fatigue limit (preferably able to set it in the ini) instead of trip - or using trip at the very end and rarely, at 99% fatigue the horse might just want to walk. One could ride a horse to it's death but I would not really want that feature :P
But since I am using Kuvertee's horse speed adjustment when walking I guess that would conflict if you used this method when walking too - but it really just needs a slow down when galloping and then it wont conflict. Horses walk so slow originaly, whish they had a six speed shifter.

The speed drain and corresponding reduced fatigue burn feature I'm thinking of adding in the future would make all actors slow down before they push themselves to collapse.

I'm also not very happy with horse speeds... they are really slow, particularly at walking. In Future versions I'm going to have a crack at fixing this.
I'm using Saddlebags 3.0 and get whining and stumbling when walking uphill with horses. Seems that there carrying capacity is very sensitive.

EDIT - Right now I am using:
set aaRealisticFatigue.horseEncumbMult to 0.05 ; recommended 0.2 (prob going to up this a bit)
set aaRealisticFatigue.riderWeight to 400.0 (originally 500)
And now it is better, but needs tweaking - the horse is whiniyng quite alot, should set in later. - What does aaRealisticFatigue.RiderWeight really do when adjusting up or down? END Edit.

Can anyone who is getting excessive complaints from their horse with default settings do the checks I described earlier in the thread. It seems some other mod is playing with horse stats and in particular encumbrance. Also it would be good if we can qualify what is meant by "whinnying a lot"... Starting to whinny after about 40secs of galloping steep uphill is normal. Whinnying when galloping on the flat or walking uphill is more than it should. Whinnying when walking on the flat is a lot. Whinnying when just mounting is really alot.

With v2.3 riderWeight is forced to 100*fActorStrengthEncumbMult/encumbMult when using mode=1. The idea was to calculate bodyWeight from these two settings, but in retrospect this is a mistake because although encumbMult is nominally how many body weights you are lifting at full encumbrance, it is also used to adjust fatigue burn from encumbrance and can be set to 0, which gives a divide by zero error. The horse encumbLevel is calculated as;

encumbLevel = horseEncumbMult * (horse.getAV encumbrance + rider.getAV encumbrance + riderWeight) / (fActorStrengthEncumbranceMult * horse.getAV strength)

The default horseEncumbMult=0.2 was a rough gestimate based on horses being about 5x the body mass of a human, and hence should be able to carry about 5x as much with similar fatigue effects.

My experiments with SaddledBags 3.0 showed that the bag and saddle are added to the horses inventory and count in the horses encumbrance, but the contents of the saddle bag don't. This means you get a fixed fixed 30 (saddle) + 10 (bags) = 40 encumbrance added to your horse. This is negligible compared to the 500 + ~200 from the rider and his inventory.
User avatar
Steph
 
Posts: 3469
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:44 am

Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:43 pm

Some quick testing on the road/bridge outside Imperial Bridge Inn.

I installed Realistic fatigue with OBMM with all the settings on Normal (recommended), reverted the changed horse values to default.

1. Note about Whinnying horses. Seems like it starts a bit early - when there is about 150 fatigue points left.
After that it does not stop whinny until passed 200 in fatigue, aught to stop allot quicker.

And now it comes to it.... I can't insert special items with this Explorer 8.0; I usually use firefox or opera but I install as little as possible on my gaming OS. So instead of giving you links to screenshots with the debugging on I'll have to write some of it down :(

Full health - 250/250

Unmounted horse:
Fatigue 362/362
Encumbrance 48.1/400

Mounted horse
Fatigue 311.5/362
Encumbrance 48.1/400

Walking the horse up wards the hill behind the Inn.
Almost get to the top before fatigue is bottomed out.

Walking the horse on flat surface.
No fatigue drain.

Galloping up the road from the Bridge to wards Leyawiin (this is the bridge at the road seen from the inn - main road).
Almost reach top before fatigue is at zero

Galloping downhill and flat.
Almost no fatigue drain. Well there is none really. - It all comes with a slight uphill, starts burning pretty fast even on slight elevation.

I can send you screendumps if you want - stupid Explorer :P

EDIT - If you recall I am using Hrmms armoured horses (that I can't get to armour my horses without crashing) and my horse is a Black one right now. About the whinnying - maybe have it whinnying at set percentage values of the total fatigue of the horse? Since my Black only got about 300 in fatigue the whinnying might set in earlier than one might expect; if you set it to trigger at set fatigue intervals. End EDIT
User avatar
NeverStopThe
 
Posts: 3405
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:25 pm

Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:22 am

Wow, that is really wierd... some other mod is really playing funny-buggers with your horse!


The only other horse mod I have is Mounted Combat, which, contrary to its name, only changes the speed of the horse. As I said, I had those esp's deactivated. I'll remove them all together.

I have no idea why his max encumbrance is 699... at 40 strength and fActorStrengthEncumbranceMult=8.0 it should be 320, so something must have setBaseAv'ed it. Something is adding encumbrance to your horse... either by adding items to his inventory, burden spells, or modav'ing it.


I don't know why. I don't have saddlebags or anything like that. The only thing I have (deactivated) is Mounted Combat.



Is your horse also very slow?


Yes. As soon as I loaded RF, the horse became very, very slow.



Maybe this is a side effect of MMM or something?


Never had the problem before the last two versions of RF.


Take a look at http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=8962 to see if that could be the culprit (although my horse moving slow and whinnying all the time occured BEFORE I loaded Mounted Combat.
User avatar
brandon frier
 
Posts: 3422
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:47 pm

Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:09 pm

OK, I removed Mounted Combat. It's no longer in my data folder.

The only other mods I have that affect the horse, that I can think of, are the official Horse Armor mod (though neither of my horses have armor yet) and a mod that puts Horse Armor on some Imperial Guard patrolers.



I did the test on my new Bay horse that I just bought from Skingrad, and I saw different results. Most of the stats looked fine. Except Fatigue. I just purchased the horse, and we're outside the Skingrad West Gate.

Fatigue reads 0/325. When I mount, it zooms up to 280-281/325. Again, we see the counter: 280.00. 280.01. 280.02. 280.03. etc. all the way up to 281, which immediately resets itself to 280.

The other stats don't seem to change.



Here's my load ode, btw.





Oblivion.esm
Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm
Mart's Monster Mod.esm
Mart's Monster Mod for OOO.esm
Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp
DLCShiveringIsles.esp
Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - SI.esp
Natural_Weather_HDR_with_darker_Nights_by_Max_Tael.esp
Natural_Habitat_by_Max_Tael.esp
aaaBorsBedrolls.esp
Tamriel VWD v0.5.esp
Living Economy.esp
Living Economy - Items.esp
Cutthroat Merchants.esp
DLCHorseArmor.esp
DLCHorseArmor - Unofficial Patch.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - HorseArmor.esp
DLCOrrery.esp
DLCOrrery - Unofficial Patch.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - Orrery.esp
DLCVileLair.esp
DLCVileLair - Unofficial Patch.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - VileLair.esp
DLCMehrunesRazor.esp
DLCMehrunesRazor - Unofficial Patch.esp
DLCSpellTomes.esp
DLCSpellTomes - Unofficial Patch.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - MehrunesRazor.esp
NV Imperial Guard Horse Armour.esp
DLCThievesDen.esp
DLCThievesDen - Unofficial Patch.esp
DLCThievesDen - Unofficial Patch - SSSB.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - ThievesDen.esp
Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp
Mart's Monster Mod for OOO.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Shivering Isles.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Additional Enemy NPC Vars.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Gems & Gem Dust.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Hunting & Crafting.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Looting NPCs & Creatures.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Safer Roads.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Spawn Rates - Reduced Reduced.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Vindasel.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Foxes.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Dungeons of MMM.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Extra Wounding.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Farm Animals.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Durzog Addon.esp
Corpse_Kvatch.esp
LetThePeopleDrink.esp
DLCBattlehornCastle.esp
DLCBattlehornCastle - Unofficial Patch.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - Battlehorn.esp
DLCFrostcrag.esp
DLCFrostcrag - Unofficial Patch.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - Frostcrag.esp
Knights.esp
Knights - Unofficial Patch.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - Knights.esp
Mart's Monster Mod for OOO - Knights .esp
Mart's Monster Mod - City Defences.esp
_burning_kvatch.esp
Natural_Vegetation_by_Max_Tael.esp
Harvest [Flora].esp
Harvest [Flora] - Shivering Isles.esp
Harvest [Flora] - DLCVileLair.esp
Harvest [Flora] - DLCFrostcrag.esp
RealisticHealth.esp
MM_EnemyHPBar.esp
Crowded Roads.esp
Jagnot- Imperial City Library V1.3.esp
Imperial City Waterfront Tunnel Entrance v2.0.esp
GM's Archery Rebalance.esp
GM's Marksman Sneak Attack Mod.esp
immersive_caves_auto.esp
Syc_AtHomeAlchemy.esp
RealisticFatigue.esp
RealSleepExtended.esp
Dark Dungeons.esp
Dark Dungeons - SI.esp
hackdirtabyss.esp
Distant Chapel Bells.esp
Visually Enchanted Fire 1.esp
Visually Enchanted Frost 2.esp
Visually Enchanted Shock 1.esp
User avatar
Undisclosed Desires
 
Posts: 3388
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:10 pm

Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:13 am

I did the test on my new Bay horse that I just bought from Skingrad, and I saw different results. Most of the stats looked fine. Except Fatigue. I just purchased the horse, and we're outside the Skingrad West Gate.

Fatigue reads 0/325. When I mount, it zooms up to 280-281/325. Again, we see the counter: 280.00. 280.01. 280.02. 280.03. etc. all the way up to 281, which immediately resets itself to 280.

Ah... you mean fatigue jumped and did this decimal-point only cycling, not encumbrance. In your first post you said encumbrance was doing this cycling, and over a range of 460->551, not just 280.0->281.x. Also, don't you mean fatigue is 325.0/325.0 before you mount, and then when you mount it goes down to 280.0/325.0

The decimal-point counting is normal and is an artifact because mods cannot make fractional changes to fatigue, only whole integers. This is RF applying a fatigue limit of 280/325 because of encumbrance... every time it gets greater than 281.0 it is reset back to 280.0. This looks pretty normal and correct, and your horse doesn't look to be too encumbered (from that level of fatigue drain, he's about 37% encumbered).

Your horse should not be whinnying with fatigue of 280/325. It should start occasionally whinnying when fatigue is about half. As fatigue gets lower it will whinny more frequently, till it's whinnying almost continuously at zero fatigue. You don't mention how your horse walks/rides now... when you gallop on the flat his fatigue should not change much at all. When walking uphill it should not change much at all. The only time it should go down is galloping uphill. Your horse should regenerate fatigue when walking on flat or even slightly uphill.

If your horse starts to whinny, he is getting tired... walk him for about 30secs and he should recover enough to gallop again. Gallop him till he's continually whinnying and you are just driving him to collapse.

You mention that your horse got very slow when RF was loaded. In RF.ini there are fMoveCreatureWalkMin and fMoveCreatureWalkMax settings, which are the only things that could be making RF v2.3 change a horse's movement speeds. These are part of the optional "adjust movement speed" settings, and they just force these settings to the Oblivion default values. I suspect some other mod had changed these to something else and RF is reverting that change. Can you comment these lines out, and then at the console tell me what "getGS fMoveCreatureWalkMin" and "getGS fMoveCreatureWalkMax" shows... I am curious to see what your other mods are setting this to. Doing this should set your horse back to his original speed before RF.

I still don't know what would have caused your horse to whinny as soon as you mounted him... what you are describing now should not be triggering whinny on mount... maybe he was wounded before? If it really was encumbrance doing strange things before, then maybe it really was Mounted Combat... fiddling with encumbrance is one way you can modify movement speed.
User avatar
Vicky Keeler
 
Posts: 3427
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:03 am

Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:42 pm

Some quick testing on the road/bridge outside Imperial Bridge Inn.

1. Note about Whinnying horses. Seems like it starts a bit early - when there is about 150 fatigue points left.
After that it does not stop whinny until passed 200 in fatigue, aught to stop allot quicker.

Thank for doing this testing and reporting the results.

The first warning whinny's should start at about 1/2 fatigue for the default npcPantGain setting. They should be very infrequent. I'll check the code but I think I calculate the next whinny time in advance, which might mean the final whinny from when you had 50% fatigue comes much later when your fatigue has significantly recovered... If so I will fix this in the next version so whinny times are based on the current immediate fatigue.
Full health - 250/250

Unmounted horse:
Fatigue 362/362
Encumbrance 48.1/400

Mounted horse
Fatigue 311.5/362
Encumbrance 48.1/400

That base fatigue looks a bit strange... it should be strength+endurance+agility+willpower+health/2... what are these other attributes at? In default Oblivion all attributes except speed are at 50 for all horses. The mounted fatigue indicates RF considers your horse to be about 37% encumbered, which should be OK. Everything else looks OK here.
Walking the horse up wards the hill behind the Inn.
Almost get to the top before fatigue is bottomed out.

Walking the horse on flat surface.
No fatigue drain.

Galloping up the road from the Bridge to wards Leyawiin (this is the bridge at the road seen from the inn - main road).
Almost reach top before fatigue is at zero

Galloping downhill and flat.
Almost no fatigue drain. Well there is none really. - It all comes with a slight uphill, starts burning pretty fast even on slight elevation.

That sounds about right... going uphill is really hard work for any creature. Fatigue studies show vertical movement costs about 10x horizontal movement per unit distance moved. In RF vertical movement is based on "per unit of jump height". Note that this also happens to make "climbing" an acrobatics skill because that is what determines jumping height... so boosting your acrobatics will make going uphill easier. With climbMult=1.5, climbing up one jumpHeight costs 1.5x as much fatigue as running 1sec. In Oblivion you can run ~4x as far in 1sec as you can jump up, so with these settings vertical climbing costs only 1.5 x 4 ~= 6x as much as horizontal movement... so RF is actually being much kinder than reality's 10x.

Note that if you do these fatigue tests with yourself selected you should see similar results... going uphill really hurts. If you don't like this you can adjust climbMult to adjust how much fatigue is burned for climbing. This will also reduce the fatigue burn for you horse going uphill.
User avatar
Jodie Bardgett
 
Posts: 3491
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:38 pm

Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:07 am

I suppose I should de-lurk and throw my two cents in.

I'm using Realistic Fatigue (great mod) and Mounted Combat together, plus Saddle Bags and the DLC horse armor and I'm not getting the problem Delte is describing. Even with my character and the saddle bags loaded down practically to the maximum I can still gallop Prior Maborel's horse in short bursts before the whinnying starts. Whatever is causing the problem I don't think it Mount Combat is the culprit.
User avatar
Charlotte Lloyd-Jones
 
Posts: 3345
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Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:14 pm

As you say, going uphill is hard work and when I had the indicators running to show me that indeed it did not take much of an effort to trot/gallop as long as it was flat was.... comforting :D So what I was experiencing was that the horse was just making allot of noise since I seldom got back to over 50% fatigue; and I find that the values going uphill is just fine - I don't want it to be too easy.

Shadow, my horse, has all his attributes at 50 except intelligence and speed. Which made me think about a mod that could train your horse for greater stamina; indeed the combat and stealth skills could be nice to train for a war horse but I digress. Health is set at 325.

Really all I got to do is to join the mages guild and create a fortify fatigue and/or restore fatigue on other.

I find it is working quite well for me, the only thing that I would like to be able to tweak is when the horse starts/stops whinnying.

EDIT - Horse regenerates when walking and does not burn excessively. The only thing then is to get it to whinny less :P Everything is working perfect here in fact. End EDIT
EDIT 2 - Lowered the fatigue burning when walking somewhat "set aaRealisticFatigue.walkMult to 0.15; recommended = 0.25" and that made it suit me better when walking the horse. I've had no problem now keeping tabs on my horse fatigue; I usually walk/trot and only gallop on level surfaces. END Edit.

Really great mod this; I just can't imagine playing Oblivion without it :goodjob:
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Sarah Kim
 
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Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:57 am

Ah... you mean fatigue jumped and did this decimal-point only cycling, not encumbrance.


I'm getting different feedback now. Originally, one horse had the fatigue moving while the other had the encumbrance moving.

Now, here's what I'm getting (going back to the exact same save point--so things shouldn't have changed).

The paint horse still has the 40/50 Agility and Strength, and it's health is over its max, all as before.

Fatigue not mounted: 611/699

Fatigue mounted: 551/699





On the Bay horse, all the stats look OK except for Fatigue.

Fatigue not mounted: 325/325

Fatigue mounted: 280/325


No, I didn't mix those numbers up. On both horses, fatigue now goes down when I mount.

I've completely removed Mounted Combat, although, like the other poster, I don't think it had anything to do with this...I really think it's RF.

Oh, and the Bay horse is brand new at this save point. Just purchased. Not ridden at all.



You mention that your horse got very slow when RF was loaded. In RF.ini there are fMoveCreatureWalkMin and fMoveCreatureWalkMax settings, which are the only things that could be making RF v2.3 change a horse's movement speeds. These are part of the optional "adjust movement speed" settings, and they just force these settings to the Oblivion default values. I suspect some other mod had changed these to something else and RF is reverting that change. Can you comment these lines out, and then at the console tell me what "getGS fMoveCreatureWalkMin" and "getGS fMoveCreatureWalkMax" shows... I am curious to see what your other mods are setting this to. Doing this should set your horse back to his original speed before RF.


I see in the RF.ini that the settings for those two parameters are the same as vanilla.

I did as you asked, and the settings are normal. WalkMin is 5. WalkMax is 300.
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Laura Tempel
 
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Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:00 am

I'm getting different feedback now. Originally, one horse had the fatigue moving while the other had the encumbrance moving.

Now, here's what I'm getting (going back to the exact same save point--so things shouldn't have changed).

The paint horse still has the 40/50 Agility and Strength, and it's health is over its max, all as before.

Fatigue not mounted: 611/699

Fatigue mounted: 551/699

Something has definitely fiddled with this horse and modAV'ed at least its agility, strength, health, and maybe fatigue. I think MMM and maybe OBSE can do things like this as part of diversifying actors encountered. I'm wondering if some sort of wounding mod might also have done something like this. You can try doing 'modav 1000' and then 'modav 0' at the console to restore them to their max, but if they've been modAV'ed down then they might not change.

I wonder... is this horse wearing armor? It turns out armor boosts health, and might count as a carried item contributing encumbrance... how much does horse armor weigh?

The fatigue drop when mounting is RF doing the right thing... draining fatigue for encumbrance, the same as it does for the player. Despite these attribute changes, this horse should still be mostly OK to ride. The biggest problem is assuming all the fatigue drain is from RF because of encumbrance, this horse is about 46% encumbered (about ~740 feathers, 500 of which is the rider) when you are mounted... and that's a bit higher than normal. Boosting his strength back to 50 would help. I don't know what he's carrying when you are not mounted, but if it's all RF drains and not modAV from other mods, then he's about 35% (567 feathers) encumbered before you even mount him. the difference when you mount is not enough, so I suspect he's been modAV fatigue drained down by some other mod.
On the Bay horse, all the stats look OK except for Fatigue.

Fatigue not mounted: 325/325

Fatigue mounted: 280/325

No, I didn't mix those numbers up. On both horses, fatigue now goes down when I mount.

That looks completely correct and expected... RF is reducing your horses available fatigue because he becomes a bit encumbered when you mount. Fatigue represents the percentage of unfatigued muscles available to run/hit/etc, and muscles pre-occupied by lifting stuff are not available for running/hitting/etc.

How does riding this horse go? He's only 37% (~740 feathers) encumbered, so I'm guessing you are carrying about 240 feathers. He should be riding OK.
I see in the RF.ini that the settings for those two parameters are the same as vanilla.

I did as you asked, and the settings are normal. WalkMin is 5. WalkMax is 300.

Is your horse still slow? Do you have a savegame from before RF where it was fast? Can you remove RF, load that save, and check the horses stats and those settings before RF? Probably reinstall Mounted combat to see if that made it faster...
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Lakyn Ellery
 
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Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:34 am

RE: The new Bay horse.

That looks completely correct and expected... RF is reducing your horses available fatigue because he becomes a bit encumbered when you mount. Fatigue represents the percentage of unfatigued muscles available to run/hit/etc, and muscles pre-occupied by lifting stuff are not available for running/hitting/etc.

How does riding this horse go? He's only 37% (~740 feathers) encumbered, so I'm guessing you are carrying about 240 feathers. He should be riding OK.


I don't ride the paint horse any more. I bought the bay, and that's going to be my horse for a while, until I can afford a better one.

Neither horse is armored. I have the Plugin Refurbish mod running, so I haven't found the horsearmor note yet.

The riding, speed-wise, is normal. I haven't ridden the paint in a while to see if it's slow like it was.

Do you have a savegame from before RF where it was fast?


No. I've been using RF since the beginning. It's a must have mod, and I wouldn't start a game without it.

As far as riding the new bay, given what you said, it may be running normally, as intended, with RF. If this is the case, I don't like RF's effects on horses at all. Cyrodiil is very hilly. I don't want to hear my horse whinny each trip.

I just left Chorrol, heading for Imperial City. The downhill run was good. No problems. But, at the T interesection, I turned away from Imperial City, taking the road around to the far side of Imperial City, intending to go up the road to Cheydinhaul (however you spell it).

Well, I didn't get far. As soon as I started going uphill, it wasn't long before the bay started whinning. So, I slowed to a walk, which I really don't want to do. But, I did to see if it would stop the whinnie. It stopped the frequency, but not the whinny. So, I started a gallop again, and the horse collapsed. All of this happened before I got to that first fort that the road goes through--not far.

What I'd like to do, as I mentioned originally, is set the horses so that they will rarely whinny or collapse. I want to be able to ride them clear accross Cyrodill as in vanilla. I'm OK with a very steep hill making a whinny happen, or an occasional collapse. But, I don't want it happening regularly.

How can I set my horse to do that?
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Reanan-Marie Olsen
 
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Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:42 pm

EDIT - Horse regenerates when walking and does not burn excessively. The only thing then is to get it to whinny less :P Everything is working perfect here in fact. End EDIT
EDIT 2 - Lowered the fatigue burning when walking somewhat "set aaRealisticFatigue.walkMult to 0.15; recommended = 0.25" and that made it suit me better when walking the horse. I've had no problem now keeping tabs on my horse fatigue; I

On walking fatigue burns;

My current RF model is based on walking being 1/4 the speed of full speed running. According to human fatigue models this is the magic speed below which walking is more efficient, and above which running is more efficient. Humans top speed is ~10m/sec, so the fastest practical walking speed is 2.5m/sec. The energy burned walking (or running) at 1/4 full running speed is 1/4 the energy burned running at full speed. This is where walkMult=0.25 comes from. The optional movement speed setting changes in RF boost walking and running speeds (for speed and athletics 100) to 2.5m/s and 10m/s respectively to match this model.

However, the comfortable long-term walking speeds are more like 1.6m/s, or about 1/6 full running speed. This is because energy burned walking is not linear with speed, and walking a little bit slower saves you a lot more energy. Walking at 1/6 full speed will burn ~1/10th the energy of running at full speed which would mean walkMult=0.1.

The default Oblivion movement speeds seem to assume maxWalk ~= 2.0m/s which is slightly faster than "comfortable walking pace", but less than max practical walking pace. Oblivions default top running speed is only 8.0m/sec which is significantly less than 10m/s, but given that it doesn't scale running speed down for low fatigue or encumbrance, this probably assumes an encumbered/tired fast jog.

I'm considering changing RF's defaults to match Oblivions default walking speeds at 1/5 speed, which is the same as Oblivions default walking speed. I'm not sure what to do about running speeds... if I can scale movement speeds down for fatigue I'll probably make top speed 10m/s, but if not I'll keep it at 8m/s.

So I guess what I'm asking is... do people think walk speed should be set to the middle (1/5 full) speed that burns less fatigue, or should walk speed be set to the fastest practical walking (1/4 full) speed and burns more fatigue? Or should it be the realistic comfortable speed (1/6 full speed) that burns hardly anything but is slower than Oblivions default? Assuming I can scale movement speeds for fatigue, these would correspond to;

1) 1/4 speed: walk=2.5m/s, run=10m/s, walkMult=0.25 fMoveCharWalkMin=107, fMoveCharWalkMax=160, fMoveRunMult=3.0 fMoveRunAthleticsMult=1.0
2) 1/5 speed: walk=2.0m/s, run=10m/s, walkMult=0.15 fMoveCharWalkMin=97, fMoveCharWalkMax=130, fMoveRunMult=3.75 fMoveRunAthleticsMult=1.25
3) 1/6 speed: walk=1.6m/s, run=10m/s, walkMult=0.10 fMoveCharWalkMin=78, fMoveCharWalkMax=104, fMoveRunMult=4.5 fMoveRunAthleticsMult=1.5

If I can't scale movements speeds satisfactorily I'd set full speed at 8m/s (the same as default) and that would give these figures;

4) 1/4 speed: walk=2.5m/s, run=8m/s, walkMult=0.31 fMoveCharWalkMin=107, fMoveCharWalkMax=160, fMoveRunMult=2.4 fMoveRunAthleticsMult=0.8
5) 1/5 speed: walk=2.0m/s, run=8m/s, walkMult=0.19 fMoveCharWalkMin=97, fMoveCharWalkMax=130, fMoveRunMult=3.0 fMoveRunAthleticsMult=1.0
6) 1/6 speed: walk=1.6m/s, run=8m/s, walkMult=0.13 fMoveCharWalkMin=78, fMoveCharWalkMax=104, fMoveRunMult=3.75 fMoveRunAthleticsMult=1.25

After writing all this I'm leaning towards 1/5 speed. Currently RF v2.3 doesn't scale movement speeds, so you can test this using the 6) settings. Note that this is pretty close to default Oblivion movement settings. This is pretty close to RF v2.3's recommended settings except you need to set walkMult=0.19.
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Bigze Stacks
 
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Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:20 am

As far as riding the new bay, given what you said, it may be running normally, as intended, with RF. If this is the case, I don't like RF's effects on horses at all. Cyrodiil is very hilly. I don't want to hear my horse whinny each trip.
[...]
How can I set my horse to do that?

BTW, real horses can't gallop at full speed up and down hills continuously either... they get tired and need to walk/rest. However, there are 2 main settings you can tune;

horseEncumbMult - this scales horse's encumbrance to take into account they are much bigger than humans. Setting this lower means encumbrance will have less effect on horses.

climbMult - this scales how much fatigue is burned going uphill. Reducing this will mean all actors will burn less fatigue going uphill.

It sounds like it's about right when riding on flat surfaces, so I think most of your problem is climbMult... realistic fatigue burns for going uphill are high, and there is not a creature on earth that wouldn't get totally exhausted running full speed up a big hill. I would try setting it to 1.0 and see how that goes. However, this setting will affect all actors, so if you like how puffed you get running uphill yourself, then reducing horseEncumbMult will help without affecting other actors.
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Solina971
 
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Post » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:13 am

It sounds like it's about right when riding on flat surfaces, so I think most of your problem is climbMult... realistic fatigue burns for going uphill are high, and there is not a creature on earth that wouldn't get totally exhausted running full speed up a big hill. I would try setting it to 1.0 and see how that goes. However, this setting will affect all actors, so if you like how puffed you get running uphill yourself, then reducing horseEncumbMult will help without affecting other actors.


As I've said on my thread, one has to balance realism with playability, and that's different for different people. That's why we call it "immersion" and not realism. For me, since I don't fast travel at all (although I've just installed the Cyrodiil Transportation Network--may start using that), the horse is necessary. I want to be able to gallop fast up and down hills.

There's a bathing mod out there, but I don't use it. Not because it isn't realistic, but because it's pain in the butt. I do hamper my character with RF and Real Sleep and Real Hunger, because I enjoy those things. But, even with RF, the amount of weight one can carry is crazy and not very "realistic". My toon is carrying 200+ pounds right now and not encumbered that much. Wearing heavy armor. That wouldn't happen in the real world, yet I like RF's balance between real and fantasy.

Heck, I can swim in my heavy armor!

So, I'm willing to give up having to walk my horse every time I go up a hill (and there are a lot of hills in Cyrodiil) in order to keep the "fun" in the game. The snail pace of the horse at a walk, and having to do that often, is more of a pain to me than making the game more interesting and immersive.

Some people may like it. Different strokes for different folks.

Me, I'm not crazy about the horse part of RF. But, that's just one small part of a beautfiul, amazing mod. I love how you've tweaked the fatigue for NPCs in this newest edtion. I think it's perfect. It's nice to see the NPCs go down on their knees, trying to catch their breath, just like I do.

It's fun to slap 'em accross the head with my mace while they're down too.

So, for me, I love RF. I'm going to try to adjust to keep the burn for the horse on the hills not affect the game too much as I think it's affecting the game too much at default.
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Killer McCracken
 
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