Just a minor question. In the third PGE it's mentioned that Hlaalu and Dres are on the rise, modernizing and adapting to a cosmopolitan Imperial society. What I'm confused about is Helseth's earlier banning of slavery. Wouldn't this cripple Dres? I thought their entire economy was based on slavetrading and plantation farming. I'd have expected them to be the most reactionary of the Houses, if anything.

*With many biggie Houses out of the way, Hlaalu becomes the most powerful ones of the House. If I remember correctly, Dres usually joins the strongest House.
*Helseth was raise as a Imperial or Breton. His morals stay with him.
*Slaves have no where to go, they are now very cheap laborers, granted, if they are not ship back to their homeland.

I don't think that slavery is something that Helseth has the power to actually abolish. In law it is not allowed, but the Houses still have some of their own laws, and the Telvanni...do you think they'll care? They'll find a way to keep slaves or cheap labour, and the Dres won't have a choice unless Helseth wants to bankrupt his only allies, and the only House that there is to represent the traditionalists who will gain more support the longer the war in Morrowind continues. And Helseth doesn't want to do that, unless he's an idiot, which he isn't.

Of course, Bethesda could ignore that detail, and say that Tiber Septim did it.



That's actually the Telvanni, and they've not joined with Hlaalu this time.

Strength of Hlaalu comes in Trade, Influence, Wealth and a powerful Ally of the Imperials, something I do not think Telvanni would achieve.

Chances are for the 'freed slaves' little will change apart from their legal status. Its highly doubtful that they're gonna try and trek back to their home provinces, to do so would probably mean their deaths, meaning that they'll probably stay were they are working for pittance, for shelter or for food. For alot of them there's likely nowhere else to go and no means of traveling if there was.

Helseth and the Empire don't have the presence, the influence or the numbers to actually enforce anything...

A Khajiit on 'Who has the most influence in Morrowind':

"Let me tell you who it's not. It's not the Imperial Proconsul here in Narsis. See, he's so unimportant I don't even remember his name. He may think he runs the province, but he's out of touch with what's really going on. Must be. Morrowind's too big and strange and secretive for any one man to really control it. Maybe one of the Governors? Or, better, a military officer, the commander of the legions perhaps? Nah. First, the Army is divided. Supposedly the local commander reports to the governor, right? But the Army has never liked being under a civilian, and lately its gotten worse. Much worse. You'd be surprised what's going on out in the districts. Then add the Red Templars to the mix. Theoretically tied into the chain of command, right? But they don't really take orders from anybody but themselves. So, you say, the Imperials are a mess, just like everywhere else. Maybe one of the locals, the High Hlaalu? Or maybe you're clever and choose his Vizier instead. Now you're getting closer, but how much do even the Hlaalu know about what's really going on? This place is going to bloody hell, friend, and no one even knows it. And the few of us who do know, what can we do about it anyway? The old tricks won't work this time. We're trying to hold back the sand. Ah, it's all going to hell."http://www.imperial-library.info/interviews/skelm.shtml

Bonded labourers make for nice, legal slaves, you just pay them enough to pay room and board, but no more. Keep entire populations in servitude. Just look at the Irish. They weren't called the negroes of Europe for nothing. Besides, I can't see Hlallu H&S inspectors wandering round Tear. Just a few high profile releases, and Helseth will be kept happy.

I read an article once that interestingly argued that serfdom, (basically, one step up from slavery) is actually more beneficial for the rich and powerful than slavery.

Presumably, any newly made "free men", or mer or beasts would be flat broke, without the money to set out alone, to go home or to even move town. So, these people would have to enter into a contract with their former owners to work their, (the former slavers) land in return for a stipend, (or wage). This frees the slavers from having to provide any sort of housing or food to their workers, (under slavery, without a wage the slaves were unable to buy food or build houses so it was up to their keepers, now the serfs would have to provide for themselves). They can now just hire whoever is willing to work for the least, creating a wage race to he bottom.

Also, it would free Dres from having to hire dozens of guards to watch over their plantations, ensure the slaves don't escape, and trap the ones that do.

In some ways serfdom is better than slavery and in some ways it isn't. Economically at least, there are advantages from the point of view of the employer, so maybe Dres simply made the best of what, from their point of view) was a bad situation.

So, basically Helseth had a epiphany, styled himself some ashen skinned Wilberforce and set the "slaves" free.

Snicker. Yeah, right, Dunmer just obey everything the Crown tells them, right.

Slavery could be seen as an embarrassment for Morrowind, compared to having paid labor. Helseth probably wants his province to be seen as more than some exotic land useful only for raw materials like Ebony and Glass.

Maybe you could see Helseth as similar to an oil sheik in our world who wants his nation to be more than some resource to be exploited. Or like the czar Peter the Great, who wanted to modernize his nation even if he had to do it by force. Just my opinion.

Knowing Helseth, he might have arranged for a change of leadership in House Dres.

You can believe that the slave traders suddenly opted for a lofty morality over profits if you want. But I won't, to me it reeks of inconsistency, which has sadly almost become a tradition now.

Yes, it seems strange that Dres would opt to modernize. I suppose Indoril might have been badly shaken by the fall of the Tribunal, and Dres became desperate for allies. Redoran is traditionalist, but so static and boring that nobody would gain anything from working with them. Perhaps Dres was being realistically venal?

Still, I have to think that it might just be a publicity thing. I cannot imagine all those landowners giving up slave labor at once, and willingly. The House council probably made some announcement that people nodded their head to and ignored. Then all the newspapers in Cyrodiil could publish stories about abolition, regardless of how true it really was.

After all, Hlaalu is supposedly the most pro-Imperial house, but they have associations with the Camonna Tong thanks to Orvas Dren. The leadership cannot always account for the actions of its underlings--or perhaps even underkings.

Slavery and serfdom, when they are past their used by date, are a MAJOR hindrance to an economy rather than a boost. Look at imperial Russia in 1914.

But, i don't know if bringing in slaves from the outside has the same affect as enslaving the native population. The slaves in Morrowind were outside the normal population, and seemed to be only used for farm labouring, mining and service. If the rest of the popluation is encouraged to be industrious and innovative, the only drawback could be relations from non-slaver states.

Aside from the immorality of it, slavery is probably inefficient compared to the alternatives. Slaveholders need overseers, whips and chains, and slavecatchers; and live with the permanent fear of rebellion. An unwilling workforce probably sabotages production when possible. I once read an expert's speculation that Egypt's pyramids weren't built by slaves (more likely, similar to draftees) because the quality of the construction is too high.

Although it was for the Lore RP instead of canon (yet), Ted Peterson wrote that Helseth made a political marriage with a Dres noblewoman who, along with others of her generation of Dres, was inclined to end slavery. In the RP, Helseth abolishes slavery with little advance notice, partly to cause difficulties for his opponents, the Houses Indoril and Redoran. Ted Peterson's version of Helseth has as his long-term goal the abolition of the House system itself. The Dres nobility was shown as going along with the abolition of slavery through a combination of persuasion and veiled threats, giving up their household troops in favor of Helseth's centralized rule. As I've said, this isn't canon at this point but it fitted together at the time.

True, for industrialisation requires population movement to the cities, where serfdom does not work because there is no agriculture going on, and the institution of the lord of teh manor does not work. There's also teh issue of having to educate slaves to use machines, meaning they are no longer downtroden morons, but it could conceievably work, but the security forces required would be immense. This isn't a problem for Dres, but one way or another, by economic or physiical coercion, the slaves will work even if they aren't slaves any more.

Is slaver a word? or is it something i picked up from fallout?

I've been meaning to give this a try since i first heard about it " I am not funny "

Hey it works, but what if we actually wanted to use that particular line for a genuine reason?

Slaver is a word, and if it wasn't, it should be.

You just say, In USSR. I used it in a non-humourous context, I thought the moderator that locked the thread was mocking me.

It still makes sense. :shrug: