About Lorkhan, or Shor, or Shezzar. : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:50 am

I remember seeing a while back that a lot of people were theorizing that they/he was padomaic. Just where is this from exactly? Because Tiber Septim/Talos was anuic according to Oblivion.

» Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:09 pm

Well, you could see it from Lorkhan's personality type I suppose.

Lorkhan was the one who championed the creation of an unpredictable world with mortals, death, and freedom/free will. He upset the status quo. Thus, he is Padomaic.

Another way to see it is by subgradience, i.e. Anu/Padomay > Anuiel/Sithis > Auriel/Lorkhan. But I don't recall any explicit confirmation, as only the Anuic side is explicitly stated in Varieties of Faith. However, seeing as Lorkhan is Auriel's archenemy of sorts, one might make the connection that Lorkhan is thus Padomaic.

» Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:32 pm

But if Talos is Anuic, and he was a Shezzarine, how can Shezzar be Padomaic?

» Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:43 am

But if Talos is Anuic, and he was a Shezzarine, how can Shezzar be Padomaic?

I don't remember anything that said Talos was Anuic?

» Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:16 am

Nothing about Talos seems to exemplify Anu besides his image as the benevolent Tiber Septim. He is order, but he is also chaos. Hjalti seemed to mimic Lorkatosh, Wulfharth is extremely padomaic though.

» Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:20 am

Tiber's armour is used as the 3rd key to Paradise. It is described as The third, all the tinder of Anu. Thus, he is Anuic.

» Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:28 pm

But if Talos is Anuic, and he was a Shezzarine, how can Shezzar be Padomaic?

The difference between chaos and order is imaginary, it's the same as the difference between space and time, we only perceive space and time to be different thing because of our limited viewpoint.

Chaos is order, and order is chaos. You cannot be one without being the other also.

» Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:40 pm

Tiber's armour is used as the 3rd key to Paradise. It is described as The third, all the tinder of Anu. Thus, he is Anuic.

He's also Padomaic at the same time, since, y'know, enantiomorph and all that.

» Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:37 am

The difference between chaos and order is imaginary, it's the same as the difference between space and time, we only perceive space and time to be different thing because of our limited viewpoint.

Chaos is order, and order is chaos.

You cannot be one without being the other also.

Well, I'm talking about in essence, not in ideology.

He's also Padomaic at the same time, since, y'know, enantiomorph and all that.

Umm, maybe. Although I'm still not convinced.

» Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:12 pm

Well, I'm talking about in essence, not in ideology.

Ideology is belief, and in Elder Scrolls, belief is reality.

Thus ideology = reality = essence.

» Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:54 pm

Tiber was Anuic because he was Dragonborn, a servant of sorts to Akatosh. The Shezarrine was Wulfharth. Talos is the two together.

I know you said elsewhere that you don't subscribe to the Heresy, Cocoman, but it's the most solid explanation for this contradiction.

» Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:46 am

Tiber was Anuic because he was Dragonborn, a servant of sorts to Akatosh. The Shezarrine was Wulfharth. Talos is the two together.

I know you said elsewhere that you don't subscribe to the Heresy, Cocoman, but it's the most solid explanation for this contradiction.

He was Shezzarine too, and Wulfharth was dragonborn too.

» Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:52 am

Ideology is belief, and in Elder Scrolls, belief is reality.

Thus ideology = reality = essence.

But then where does that leave Shor, Sovngarde and Aetherius and a whole plethora of other scenarios? If the ES priests believe everyone goes to Aetherius, then is that where they really go? I'm not writing off your view because I kind'a agree. But if people believe Lorkhan is an Aedra, then isn't he, well, an Aedra...y'know?

Tiber was Anuic because he was Dragonborn, a servant of sorts to Akatosh. The Shezarrine was Wulfharth. Talos is the two together.

I know you said elsewhere that you don't subscribe to the Heresy, Cocoman, but it's the most solid explanation for this contradiction.

But then does that make all Dragonborns GODS? I wouldn't think so.

» Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:14 pm

Tiber's armour is used as the 3rd key to Paradise. It is described as The third, all the tinder of Anu. Thus, he is Anuic.

That is after he became a divine. His blood was divine, that is why his armor could be used(blood of a divine).

Tiber in life clearly was not anuic. Otherwise no conquering would have been done.

» Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:09 pm

Tiber's armour is used as the 3rd key to Paradise. It is described as The third, all the tinder of Anu. Thus, he is Anuic.

First, Talos could be anuic and Lorkhan could still be padomaic. Talos reenacted creation. I don't think he directly mantled Lorkhan. More likely he mantled Lorkatosh.

Also:

He convinced or contrived the Original Spirits to bring about the creation of the Mortal Plane, upsetting the status quo much like his father Padomay had introduced instability into the universe in the Beginning Place.

So Sithis begat Lorkhan and sent him to destroy the universe. Lorkhan! Unstable mutant!

Lorkhan is the son of padomay. Makes him padomaic. He is the padomaic Aedra (aedra just means he participated in creation.)

Aka is Anu's first born.

Lorkhan is Padomay's first born.

» Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:57 pm

But then where does that leave Shor, Sovngarde and Aetherius and a whole plethora of other scenarios? If the ES priests believe everyone goes to Aetherius, then is that where they really go? I'm not writing off your view because I kind'a agree. But if people believe Lorkhan is an Aedra, then isn't he, well, an Aedra...y'know?

But then does that make all Dragonborns GODS? I wouldn't think so.

Jyggalag is a Daedra, yet he does not believe in change. Free will is an illusion. There should only be perfect order.

Lorkhan is a unique case in his own right. He's not just an Aedric being.

» Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:00 pm

I think you're confusing "Aedric" with "Anuic."

One can be an Aedra without being Anuic.

One can be a Daedra without being Padomaic.

Aedra participated in creation. Daedra did not. That is the only distinction.

» Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:49 am

Where did I say that all Dragonborns become gods? I said that he's Anuic because he's a servant of Akatosh, who is Anuic.

» Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:36 pm

I think this is going to go round in circles so I just want the distinction between Padomaic and Anuic to be set clear.

Tiber is Anuic, yet Lorkhan isn't. Is it possible that his aspects, Shor and Shezzar are? Otherwise I can't see how Talos ended up Anuic (even though he did)...

Are Padomaic beings capable of creation, yet Daedra aren't even though they are padomaics themselves? If not, then how was Lorkhan able to create?

Where did I say that all Dragonborns become gods? I said that he's Anuic because he's a servant of Akatosh, who is Anuic.

Servants of Akatosh = Dragonborn, correct?

» Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:55 am

The Daedra all created their own realms.

Lorkhan was had the idea for creation, magnus was the Architect.

Why do you think Tiber is Anuic? Why can't he just be Aedric?

Read the quotes I poster above.

» Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:59 pm

Where did I say that all Dragonborns become gods? I said that he's Anuic because he's a servant of Akatosh, who is Anuic.

Wulfharth was Anuic?

» Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:27 am

Wulfharth was Anuic?

Peloponnese was talking bout Tiber, who was Dragonborn, thus "servant of Akatosh" unlike Wulfharth who was was a Shez.

» Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:57 am

Besides, is Akatosh not both Anuic and Padomaic? Wasn't that the whole point of separating him - to give him Lorkhanic characteristics?

» Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:09 am

Peloponnese was talking bout Tiber, who was Dragonborn, thus "servant of Akatosh" unlike Wulfharth who was was a Shez.

Both were dragonborn and both were shezzarine.

» Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:59 am

Wait, doesn't Akatosh = Lorkhan (and by extension Shor, Auri-el, Shezarr, etc.)?

If so, then the only real difference between a "dragonborn"* and a "shezarrine" is perception.

For instance: who was it that gave the Amulet of Kings to Alessia?

Some sources say Akatosh, some say Shezarr.

It doesn't really matter as both are essentially one and the same.

*- in the sense of "blessed by Akatosh", as opposed to "Dragonborn" (with a capitol D) meaning born with the soul of a dragon.