GD's abraisive guide to Battle RPs

Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:34 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Xp56uVyxs
As you can see, arrows penetrated, but after many hits. Of course, it was probably rather painful anyhow.
Arrows and Armor aside, this should be stickied.

In another video I saw, they did a similar test in a lab. The very strongest of longbows at something close to point-blank range penetrated a briastplate about a centimeter. But it's not really that important, since the guy in your video would have been a casualty on the third or fourth arrows, and that's before you consider all the unprotected horses.
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steve brewin
 
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Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:28 am

About baggage: the roman army learned to travel without it, all the provisions carried by the soldiers themselves. They each had their own cooking set, bag of wheat which they milled and baked themselves. A group of soldiers had a joined tent so each carried a part of it.

About supply lines: basically you have two options.
One: you carry everything with you and resupply from the rear. The enemy will harass the supply lines, which means you must direct men to guard the rear instead of fighting on the front. This was what killed Hannibal.
Two: you live off the land you conquer. It means you can travel fast but it can always turn against you if the enemy burns their own land to destroy you. Napoleon experienced that when he marched on Moscow, along with every other conqueror of Russia (Germans in WW2).

On the march - Human beings are reasonably sensible. Time and again simple soldiers prove that an army on campaign is an army that can travel light. During Sherman's grand march through Georgia (God save the Union tongue.gif) one of his bummers was kind enough to keep a good diary. In it he explained that he cut his blanket in half to save some weight. Now just stop and think about that for a second. If a pound and a half of extra blanket is that burdensome to merit chopping it in half, do you really thing your TES army feels like carrying around a pike, a longsword, and a shield and a crossbow on top of a suit of dwemer? Not likely. This brings me to another good point. Tents. Forget everything you've ever seen at a reenactment or in the movies. Big tents are heavy, difficult to dry and way to much effort to set up. Sure a general or a lord knight will get a spiffy tent, but by and large the PBI (Poor bloody infantry) will have to make due with shelter halves or even nothing at all.







On terrain: there is a good reason why the Spartans chose to battle the Persians in Thermopylae: narrow battlefield, hence no way of flanking.

Rough terrain - ever read a history book and been amazed how simple things always prove the biggest problem? The English army was nearly trapped in France during the Agincourt campaign because of a river. The French army at the same battle were massacred because a muddy field made it hard to ride horses. The Takeda army was destroyed by the Oda at Nagashino because of a bamboo fence. The Army of the Potomac was decimated at Fredericksburg because of a hill and a wall. Get the point? What is easy for one person to get by, alone is next to impossible for an army of thousands. This goes for forests, rivers, swamps, thick undergrowth, sand, mud, etc. There is a reason why battles are usually fought in big open fields and why armies like to march on roads.







On fatigue: have you ever tried to wield a heavy metallic sword for three straight hours? Well, I tried wielding a wooden sword for four minutes. And I was exhausted. So don't think anyone is able to go berserk for a whole day like Aragorn in LOTR. Sure, he's the hero, but the man hasn't slept for a month and he fights non-stop for two days at Helm's Deep. Two words - not realistic.

Fatigue - It's a universal rule throughout every army across the world and through time, everyone is tired. The TES world has certain things that we don't have in real life, fatigue potions for example. This will allow your TES armies to go just that bit farther when doing manual labor, marching, etc. However it is not a replacement for rest. Yes I know in the LOTR rings the orcs ran everywhere and never got tired. This is not LOTR, and you cannot do that. Nothing annoys other Rpers more than seeing a post saying that you've taken your army at a dead sprint, across difficult ground, through the woods and over a river to have them attack up a hill. People can't do that. Even if they could they would be in no shape for the grueling physical demands of battle.








On navy: a naval battle is like a chessplay. The one that has the wind in their backs, wins, because they have the propulsion to manouvre.

Navy - Naval battles are slow, painfully slow compared to land battles. They also usually have fairly simple tactics. This is a necessity because most ships are driven by wind. If you turn this way and that and dodge around, you'll usually spill the wind from your sails and be dead in the water until your crew can readjust. Also, ships are surprisingly difficult to sink. Almost everything on an old wooden ship will float. The usual outcome of a naval battle is that the ship is either captured or burns. At the battle of Trafalgar, one of the greatest naval battles of all time, only one ship actually sunk. The rest were, you guessed it, captured or burned.
Now onto fire. Fire is a ships worst enemy. They are basically giant floating matchboxes. Ships can catch fire with surprising ease. The ropes to the rigging are tarred, most planking is filled with tar and hemp fibers to make it waterproof. These things will burn if you look at them wrong. Very, very dangerous stuff.







On battlefield confusion: that's why most movie battles happen in the rain.

Battlefield confusion
As the name says, a battlefield is very confusing. There are a number of factors that come into play which cause problems. Noise and smoke are the two biggest. Noise, is rather obvious and wont be discussed. Smoke however can come from a number of different sources. Ever driven down a dirt road in a car or on a bike? You know that trail of dust kicked up? Imagine that coming from the feet of ten or twenty thousand guys. Unless it rained the day before a battle, your men will probably kick up at least some dirt. If you're in a desert, or in the middle of a dry spell, expect that dust to become a fog. This can cause men to be confused, to attack allies (Green on green) charge when they shouldn't or retreat if they're winning. Yes I know it'll hurt your cause if you portray this part in an RP. However, if you go about it in a mature fashion, it brings a ton of interest and character to the RP.

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Budgie
 
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Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:36 am

Video doesn't prove jack. First off the draw of an English long bow was more than 100 pounds. Secondly the infamous penetration power that the bodkin provides is from shooting it up into the sky and letting gravity accelerate it down toward the target. As for bullets penetrating armor, not really. This is from an e mail sent to me:

There was a historian there all dressed up as a medieval soldier who put on a neat demonstration. You would have liked him a lot. He was an archer and was teaching everyone about how the bow and arrow was actually a better weapon than muskets. I got to be his demonstration partner since I am a target shooter. :-p He did a simple test. He put a hay bail 100m away. He gave me his smooth bore musket and my task was to hit the hay bail. 2 and a half minutes and 6 shots later I finally hit the hay bail. With his bow he fired off 6 arrows in about half a minute and everyone of them hit the bail. He went on to hit a hay bail consistently at 250m an impossible range for the smooth bore. The other interesting demonstration was armor penetration on a replica briast plate. At 50m the musket could only dent it I was very surprised it had a full military charge in it at a very close range. At the same range a well crafted steel arrow head made it through a couple inches or so. Then we shot at a reinforced pavise, neither the musket or the arrow could get through. So the notion that guns made knights obsolete is entirely false. Truly a soft lead ball is not made to punch through things.

He explained that knights became obsolete for a number of economic and political reasons, not so much a change in weaponry. Their armor and weaponry were too expensive. As foot soldiers became more and more professional in the 1500s-1600s numbers became more important. The cost that went into a knight could equip and train about a dozen partially armored pikemen.

And guns became popular because they were cheap. The gun is actually very simple, just a metal tube with a lever mechanism. It takes some skill to make but they can be made cheaply and fast. And the ammunition is ridiculously cheap and easy to make. A good bow takes about a month and there is no way around that. The various levels of bone and glue need to dry and set. And an arrow takes infinitely more time to make than a lead ball. The arrow head alone takes at least 30minutes to hammer out correctly. Also the time it takes to train a competent archer is a lot greater, and the food a good archer needs is a bit more since their effectiveness is directly related to how often they can draw their bow.

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Amanda savory
 
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Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:21 am

GD, he quips before you speak.

Peleus, this guide is stickied along with Illusionary's guide to roleplaying at the top of the board. Join the timeline.
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Beth Belcher
 
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Post » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:28 pm

Peleus, this guide is stickied along with Illusionary's guide to roleplaying at the top of the board. Join the timeline.


Eh?

Here's a question for you all: who knows the difference between cavalry and mounted infantry? Don't you go googling! I'll know. :nono:
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D LOpez
 
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Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:00 am

Doesn't the mounted infantry use their mounts to get to the battle and fight on foot, where the cavalry fights on horseback?
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Nuno Castro
 
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Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:21 am

Eh?

Here's a question for you all: who knows the difference between cavalry and mounted infantry? Don't you go googling! I'll know. :nono:



Eh? What Story is trying to tell you is that all the stuff you listed was already on there written by Duval to greater detail and if you'd had read it you would have known.

What's the difference? Semantics. Depends where you go. In any case this isn't the official "who knows more factoids" thread.
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Mark Churchman
 
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Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:35 am

What Story is trying to tell you is that all the stuff you listed was already on there written by Duval to greater detail and if you'd had read it you would have known.


I was going for improving the guide.
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neil slattery
 
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Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:25 am

Well my good friend it helps if you read the opening post because it seems you skipped over that part of making improvements to the guide.
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Chrissie Pillinger
 
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Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:36 am

Well my good friend it helps if you read the opening post because it seems you skipped over that part of making improvements to the guide.


Well my friend you are sorely mistaken.
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lisa nuttall
 
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Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:30 am

Then why did you basically just write out what Duval already wrote out but in less detail?
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I’m my own
 
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Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:33 pm

Like I've said twice before, the idea was to add my contribution to what it was already written. It was about giving certain items a bit more detail. You seem to be the only one that doesn't get that. If your RL svcks, which is what I'm getting from your posts, you might try working out your problems because I don't like the way you wish to use me as a punching bag.

In other words, I'm through arguing and spoiling this thread. Moderators would be advised to delete this excuse for a conversation.
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Brandon Bernardi
 
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Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:07 am

Like I've said twice before, the idea was to add my contribution to what it was already written. It was about giving certain items a bit more detail. You seem to be the only one that doesn't get that. If your RL svcks, which is what I'm getting from your posts, you might try working out your problems because I don't like the way you wish to use me as a punching bag.

In other words, I'm through arguing and spoiling this thread. Moderators would be advised to delete this excuse for a conversation.

I don't see how repeating everything, only in less detail, that was already written can count as 'giving certain items more detail'. Though it's obvious that saying this again won't work because, no offense, in this situation I see Immortal as the one right and you as the one being stubborn.
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StunnaLiike FiiFii
 
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Post » Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:56 pm

If you want to contribute go ahead I won't stay in your way, but when Duval, Story and PFA all pretty much say what you said was a repeat of what Duval said in less detail perhaps you should take a hint. There's no point in telling me my real life svcks and i'm using you as a punching bag. I'm a bit beyond little 15 year old internet skirmishes of that sort. I have nothing against you I just think you should stop being so passionate about embarrassing yourself any further. Honestly I wasn't going to say anything to you until it was brought up to me by several other people that someone was trying to compare "e genitals" on the thread. If you look at my posts you'll see that I rarely post outside of my SoS thread and the IBT thread.
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HARDHEAD
 
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Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:43 pm

It appears Duval has left us all. Right now there are no good political RPs that are active. PFA and I are trying to get one kicked off but as of now it isn't in its best state. No one is interested in them anymore. Come on guys. If I had a place to post this, it would be here of all places.
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Angel Torres
 
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Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:34 am

Didn't you hear? http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/black_arts_on_trial.shtml


EDIT: I would, being that it itself is not stickied. And I fully knew about the link, I have read this before, you know.
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OJY
 
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Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:51 am

Didn't you hear? http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/black_arts_on_trial.shtml



This thread is linked in a sticky thread so I wouldn't consider it such necromancy Darkom >.>
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Matt Gammond
 
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Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:03 am

Happy Birthday Gerald Duval!
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Sarah Unwin
 
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Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:48 am

Good job, but what about those few who train harder with more equipment, fight fight harder and better with more weight, how are you going to handle those Losers, A-Team, Force Recon?
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Trevi
 
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Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:30 pm

I love this guide, but unless I missed it. I did not see anything about the different ways that Calv and Knights fight each other. If I missed it will someone point it out, and if it is missing I can expand on it more.
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JUDY FIGHTS
 
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Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:15 am

I love this guide, but unless I missed it. I did not see anything about the different ways that Calv and Knights fight each other. If I missed it will someone point it out, and if it is missing I can expand on it more.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalry_tactics
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Carys
 
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Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:05 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_thermal_weapons#Flaming_arrows.2C_bolts.2C_spears_and_rockets

Sorry to debate while you're here Duval but yea they really did use flaming arrows, and even crossbow bolts which I find kind of strange. Sure it messes up the accuracy but how accurate do you need to be when your target is a village or a siege tower or a whole army formation? And they really did use giant pots of exploding oil, hate to say this, but just like in the movie. But far more common was simply boiling water or heated sand. Oh yes people heated sand. Ever walk on the beach when it's really hot? Now imagine that stuck against your skin under your armor while some crazy man with an axe is yelling like a mountain lying and swinging for the fences at you.

What I would suggest however with "flaming arrows" is that when you RP a battle where you use them, you RP the preparation of how you get them lit and not just automatically and randomly shoot fire arrows because you feel like it.
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Natasha Biss
 
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Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:04 pm

Yea. There are a few books, articles, and things like that that refer to their use in ancient times. Blademaster07 and I were discussing this, and he has read two books set in ancient times that make references to flaming arrows. My conclusion is (like IB said) you must be prepared to use them, but they do indeed work. You just have to bring along the right things.

People don't use things if they don't work, at least not in battle. Poison arrows were used as well, apparently:

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/HPS/GreekFire.pdf

Not to bring up religion (DO NOT START A RELIGIOUS DEBATE!), but the "The IVP Bible background commentary: Old Testament" By John H. Walton says some things about the arrows. I haven't read all of that book, and I do not own it, but it does say things about them.

This happened at the Olympics: In Barcelona in 1992, Antonio Rebollo, an archer shot a flaming arrow over the cauldron ostensibly to light it. Rebollo had in fact been ordered to miss by organisers lest the arrow fall in the stadium.

Search "Flaming arrows" on this: http://www.reference.com/browse/Archimedes

Mythbusters also used flaming arrows for firing on a ship. They worked very, very well in setting the ships to flames.

(Edit: I misspelled Ships as...sh!ts...)
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D IV
 
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Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:31 am

I guess it really depends on WHAT you use to make it a flaming missle. I've always read that they would coat the arrow in greek fire, set that aflame, and then fire as normal.

As for bolts, they would heat them up a whole bunch, to the point where they would just go straight through a person, melting everything in its path. Pretty gruesome.

Also, the Bible (I mean this honestly) contains some of the best military tactics I've ever read. You just have to think about the passages for a few minutes to get the idea.
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TASTY TRACY
 
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Post » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:56 am

The Art of War is a great read for military tactics. I would suggests that everyone read or skim over the Art of War, especially if you are in Wooly's RP.

Something important - people do not like to die, so if you where to back an army into an enclosed space where they only have one way out and you are blocking it; don't rush in and expect to win because you won't and if you do win, expect to lose a lot of your men.

On poison arrows most of the time the arrow was coated in fecal matter or dipped in a plant sap.
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Kevin S
 
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