I agree that there's no such thing as a perfectly disciplined army, but you can't count on the enemy's line breaking every time. All I'm saying is that I wouldn't throw cavalry at a spear wall if I still have infantry to fight them. I would then use cavalry to flank, assuming the enemy's cavalry is either defeated or somewhere else

Sorry, I was just saying that for demonstrative purposes. A wooden shield would burn then, especially if it gets struck by lightning. Point is a shield isn't going to stop a half decent mage.

Indeed, there would be very few elite spellcasters that can actually blow a hole in an enemy line. I think it would work best to have a whole line of half decent mages that can throw maybe three fireballs before they run out of magic, and have them go in volleys as missile troops. Or simply use them as support troops for the infantry, giving them buffs and helping morale with rally spells. The key thing about magic is the versatility, it isn't as specialized as any real weapon, thus why it's so dangerous. One man can either form a shield around a unit, heal injured men, or throw fireballs at enemy troops.

Yeah, I suppose the morale effect, especially on enemies with few mages (Khajiit, Nords, etc.) would be huge. Especially if its used for something really scary, like summoning skeletons. I don't know about you, but if a dozen skeletons popped out of nowhere with swords, even if I knew what was happening I'd be freaking out.

Hell, against a wall of pikes, that's what I'd send mages against. I disagree with you Immortal, regarding that mages are "shock and awe" as you so....eloquently put it. Magick is the most powerful force that can be brought to bear in Nirn (excepting, of course, divine intervention). A mage knowing a simple fireball spell would be able to wreak total havoc on rigid columns of soldiers.

Sure in an ideal example where you have just a mage and just a spear wall that is true. But in a battle field situation where a mage would have to be fairly close to cast spells and in range of archers or slingers wearing little or no armor we begin to see a quite different scenario. I rather have 100 glass pistols as opposed to just one glass cannon.

Ever heard of support? Bodyguards? Anything of that kind?

Or maybe Imperial Battlemages? Armored men and women who cast a plethora of spells and were strong enough to pose a direct threat to Jagar Tharn. So much of a threat that he made a pact with Mehrunes Dagon to...get rid of the Imperial Battle College of the Battle Spire. And it stands to reason that Imperials would not be the only ones engaged in the creation and training of well-equipped, well-versed warrior-wizards.

I agree that I would rather have 100 glass pistols rather than just one glass cannon. But I would rather have 10 glass cannons than 1000 glass pistols.

I would just worry about putting all my eggs in one basket. I think mages would be an important aspect of the battle field but not THE defining aspect.

Of course. Giant Stompy Robots are the defining aspect of the battle field. But we don't have those anymore.

Hilarious jokes aside, I'm going to have to agree with Immortal. While magic is a huge factor in any fantasy war setting, the other troops are the backbone on which mages operate. Sorcerers only have so much magicka, and assuming we don't have an endless supply of magicka potions (which are fairly rare, even in game), after they are out the cavalry and infantry would have to battle. Going back to the siege weapon anology, mages would be used before the initial battle, and whoever has the most glass cannons can punch the biggest hole in the enemy army. Then the glass pistols are used as the armies get closer, along with normal missile weapons.

Speaking of which, I wonder how big of a role they would play in a siege itself. Levitating over castle walls (except in Cyrodiil, where it was banned ), teleporting into castles, etc. Of course, that would lead to anti-magic defenses, like a "no-magic bubble" of dispel over the castle. I wonder if you could dispel or absorb shields over armies as well :dance: So many possibilities to consider.

Here is something I thought of while reading over the stuff about mages;

how about mounted mages. Maybe even something along the lines of Dragoons, use the mount to ride to where they need to be and then dismount) or even something like a horse archer. What do you guys think.

I've used mounted mages in war RPs.

IB, in Queen's Waltz, put his mages inside his pike line to help defend against arrows.

Still, a mage is a human. They get ran over by a horse the same way.

Yes, magic isn't something everyone knows. However, most people don't know how to drive a tank in our world either... The Imperial Legion is funded by the wealth of the Empire, so they will afford what is neccessary.

I also disagree on the stance about Senche being like horses without the endurance... Even the standard Senche is about twice as long, and much stronger than a standard horse. They have the strength you could expect from a 16' tall Fantasy Giant. Senche-Raht have the strength of a 32' tall Giant. Other advantages they have over cavalry:
1. They are soldiers, not mere equipment
2. Their very existence proves they are not limited entirely by the Square/Cube law, making them even stronger than they appear by yet another power
3. They have built-in weapons more powerful than a horse's (A 3' tall tiger can take a person's head off in one swipe. Imagine the strength of something 8 times larger)
4. Being twice as long and having a feline frame means they are much faster than horses. They are also more agile, have superior battlefield awareness and tactical sense, and classify the amount of armor on a modern Humvee as medium. The Senche-Raht have the firepower of a Senche cubed, meaning a polarm formation is about as effective against them as it would be against a Tank Rush.
5. They can leap several times their own body length... and all the ramifications of that. They are large enough to choose whether to go through or over walls, and -Raht's might cause shockwaves and leave small craters when they land, since each paw carries more force behind it than a stone from a Trebuchet...
6. Their thick fur and hides mean they can take a lot deeper penetration to kill... it takes 2" through the chest to kill a human. Senche need about 6", and Senche-Raht need at least a foot. Not counting the thickness of the fur.
7. Senche can carry 2 riders because of their length. Senche-Raht can carry at least 8.
8. Senche-Raht have a clear view of the battlefield because of their height, and can communicate with soldiers directly.

They are weak agaisnt Bosmer archer fire and everybody elses Magic support (they have chinks in their armor you can't get at in melee with a long pole, but a small arrow can slip through the gaps easier.) Their massive size makes them massive targets, and it's not impractical to hit them with a Ballista, which will punch right through the light-to-them-but-ridiculously-heavy-to-everyone-else plating.

So, if a Breton Knight is a fantasy equivalent to a tank, Khajiit Senche-Raht are the fantasy equivalent of a Battlemech^TM

As far as magical deployment:

Area effect spells, either delivered by enchanted projectiles, scrolls, back-line Mages and Front-Line Spellswords would make mass formations too risky to use. So, tactics employed would seem rather modern. Actually, they may resemble those used in video-games or Star Wars (Open formations at very close range, high emphasis on individual mobility on open fields with concentrated fire). Daedroth, Senche-Raht, Land Dreughs, and other deployed behemoths on the battlefield also discourage mass formations.

Note: Spellsword class. High Rock has a lot of these guys. Mages don't really have a place on the battlefield, but having spellswords and Battlemages deployed to squads give more tactical options. In places like High Rock and the Imperial Legion, it may be safe to assume 10-25% of the army consists of low-powered mages... In an army of over 1,000 that is a lot of spells available.

Also, everyone has one of twelve mystical augmentations depending on their time of birth... most may not notice them/know how to use them (Especially commoners), but you can bet any well-regulated military would instruct soldiers in the use of the power of their birthsigns. And people wouldn't be segregated based on when they were born. So, there is a 1-in-12 chance any given soldier can turn invisible once per day. Another 1-in-12 chance of being notably above-average in combat ability. Another 1-in-12 are ridiculously lucky at avoiding hits. 1-in-12 would also svck up about half the spells cast at them. 1 in 12 would be faster than the others. 1 in 12 will refuse to die unless you kill them with fire. And so on.

I think Roman-style Legion tactics would be very effective in a fantasy universe, because the flexible, open formation reduces collateral damage, and a squad of 60 assorted soldiers of various specializations instead of homogeneous units. Also, emphasis on individual initiative makes an authority figure being hit with a Command Humanoid spell a lot less crippling (In our reality, everything was determined by the commander until the Americans joined World War 1). Warbeasts, cavalry, and specialist mages (The ones that seriously alter reality, not just launch fireballs, sporadically turn invisible, or manipulate enemy individuals.) are all Auxiliaries, since they can't fight alongside the others. Each race and province has its own variations on this.

I think a lot of people refuse to admit Tamriel, where three out of ten races have explicit strong Magical Aptitude, and only 1 is outright incompetent, actually has magic. I don't see Tamriel as either WoW's cartoonish fantasy or Medieval Europe's magic-free world. I see it as it's presented in the games. Particularly [i}Daggerfall[/i] and Oblivion (If you base it on the world of Morrowind, there is no excuse for saying "Magic is rare and thus not used in warfare)

I really should look at the forums more...

Ah well...

Magic battle for my mind:
1. The battle starts, magic shields are set up over the soldiers.
2. The shields are being battered by the magicians of both sides.
3. One sides shields crumble and the one who still have their shields up can either try to attack the enemy magicians or destroy the enemy army.
4a. The enemy army is attacked in all sorts of ways by the mages.
4b. The enemies mages are being attacked in all sorts of ways by the mages.
5a. The enemy army routs with great losses.
5b. The enemy mages are under heavy attack and get heavily decimated. The enemy army flees, with lighter casualties than with alternative A but with big losses on their mages.

A battle like this would propably be very crushing for one side and the enemy army would have to restore their strength for quite some while before being ready for combat again.

There aren't that many mages...and definitely not enough to cover thousands of soldiers.

Shields take too much power... it's easier to distribute the resources rather evenly throughout the battlefield. And, it's not just magic added to Peasants with Sticks and knights on horses for Tamriel's warfare... There are a large number of warbeasts (Khajiit have super-soldier Warbeasts, and others may indenture a Land Dreugh, Choice of Daedroth, Dragons(Imperial Legion Only) or other megacritters) and auxiliary cannon-fodder deployed with care (Goblins, Minotaurs, Ogres, Dreugh, etc.)

There's a nice canon example of Naval Warfare in the intro to Redguard, utilizing mages, assassins, and a Dragon.

Also... Mages aren't the only ones who cast spells. Spellswords are likely the primary source of battlefield magic, since they know enough magic to be extremely useful on the field but not enough to be prohibitively expensive to deploy. Training Battlemages to be Experts of Magic capable of launching 100-m radius supernovas or summoning two or three Xivilai or a High Dremora Lord aren't necessary or practical if you can just give 23% of your infanty a crash-course in conjuring Fireballs, Scamps, Clannfear, or low-power illusions successfully about 25% of the time, and only getting 1 or 2 spells off before being drained.

Hm... True... Hm... Hard one... Hm...

Okay... So perhaps there wouldnt be the shield-battering then. Atleast not everywhere. But the King/General would likely be protected. Since there will be nobles fighting in the battles... They propably have their own wizards... So those wizards would have first priority on keeping the noble alive. Just a random thought.


Also, is it just me picturing the mages sitting on a hill looking down upon the battle on a field firing spells at the enemy army and their mages? And then the enemies mages sitting on another hill across the field also firing spells at the enemy army and the enemy mages?

The mages on the battlefield won't be squishy guys in robes... they'd be similarly outfitted as other people in their Centuries. Tamrielic Magic does not preclude the use of armor. Non-battlemages are usually little more than celebrated hobbyists who have no need to learn how to move in armor any more than the average city city slicker. The nobles wouldn't need mages, probably being their own magical support through, if not personal training, scrolls and magic items. I'm pretty sure that Tamriel's nobles would study the Arcane arts just as historic Aristocrats learned swordplay, even when they had no real need for it.

Contrary to what was said much earlier up in this thread... Using video games could very well be a way to visualize what combat looks like on the tactical and strategic level. Even the "unrealistic" ones like Warcraft RTS. Just keep in mind logistics...

What? No squishy mages in robes? Hm... I really need to change my view COMPLETELY from the games... Hm...

Okay...
Let me show you my vision number 2 of how the mages are in the battle:


________________
I___ ___ ___ ___ _I

___ ___ ___ ___ __
I_______________I


This is the army. In the holes in the line there are positioned like 5-10 battlemages who will do their tricks against the other army and then eventually get into real combat. However, when the real combat begins, wont it be very hard for the battlemages to controll what is happening and use their magic for the best of the entire army instead of working as expert shocktroopers? The battlemages would propably also meet eachother in the battle, when this is happening some sort of combination of mundane and magic tactics are used? Is that more like it?

Cus I like the mages on the hill idea more... That means that they could notice eventual flanking attempts and completely annihilate the flankers...

I agree that they have definite advantages over cavalry, but I'm not sure how many of them an army could realistically field. Out of maybe a dozen Khajiit races, and then not every single one would be properly trained for combat, they would be a rather elite force. Especially considering the logistics of feeding such Khajiit




While I usually don't like using birthsigns in RPs, I think the possibility of Atronarch troops against mages would be an awesome scenario. So long as it's kept within reason (only once a day, and not too powerful) I would definitely like to see birthsigns in the timeline



I don't mean to say that there would be no mages, just that an ordinary army (not Altmer, basically) would only have about one in maybe two dozen with any magical ability, and then maybe one in a hundred with enough to be a threat. So in a 10,000 man army, maybe about a hundred real mages. I think that battlemages would be more made up of people with less magical ability, that compensate with more martial skill, while the powerful mages are kept in the back. So battlemages are, on average, mediocre spellcasters, while the real mages are used for ranged stuff and buffs.



Eh, I just don't see that as happening. I don't see huge magic shields as being very energy efficient, and even if they were used I don't think they would be as crucial as you make them sound. Your idea reminds me of the Gungan shields in Star Wars, where once it fell they were pretty much dead, which I always thought was lame.

I much prefer the idea of using serious mages as artillery type attackers, with the semi-mages as using small destructive spells like javelins, right before the actual infantry battle. Or, using their small magical abilities to buff with some personal shields or healing, and perhaps the serious mages for big buffs like rally or (on the enemy) demoralize. I can see Nords using fury spells before battle and whatnot

The biggest problem with the shield idea is that such a spell, protecting against all magical attacks, would be very difficult to maintain, even by a team of mages. Especially if you are also trying to break the enemy's shield. And even then, if I knew I had fewer mages I would just send my infantry in while the mages are busy, which kind of makes the mages pointless...

In this case, I submit the infallible argument of BATW :laugh:



I think there was a reason we never saw tigers on the battlefield. There's just no way to collect enough land dreughs and train them well enough not to attack your men. It just seems like an inefficient use of resources. Summoning would be much easier, I think, or using domesticated animals, like the historical use of war-dogs. And though they were used the past, dragons have been extinct on Tamriel for a while. Sorry :shrug:

Yea it is. You know why the mages on hills don't work?

Because I'll send 100 of my "magical" 2000 pound iron-coated warhorses, who are mounted with guys covered in iron and carrying big 9 foot spears, who are coming to kick your ass.

Bosmer and Khajiit definitely dominate the field when it comes to Warbeasts (The former are the ones most likely to deploy Billies and their ilk). In our history, we've not really had the push to try to find ways to counter massive behemoths. And I'm fine with that figure you found for "Competant Mages", but I'm thinking ~15% would be "capable" spellswords, and another "passable" spellswords... But the low powered magic fielded by those guys isn't the type to really mean much. Also... everyone with enough willpower can tell magical effects to sit down, shut up, and not bother them. So, magical deployment for the most part would be pretty common, but only 10% has more effect on the flow of battle than a guy who's really good with his sword.

There's a reason Redguards remain the most badass people of Tamriel without using overt magic, despite being wedged between the two most magic-prolific factions.

I think I should consider joining the Immortal Blood timeline, since it seems like the only place large enough where a Senche-Raht force commander isn't obscenely overpowered.

Can someone source where it says Dragons have gone extinct? The Imperium had Dragon-riding Battlemages (or was it Battlemage-carrying Dragons?) prior to the destruction of the Battlespire.

It shouldnt be too hard making those warhorses turn and run with demoralizing spells and perhaps putting some zombs in the way of the horses, they would propably just get ridden over but the smell would un-nerve them. And 2000 pound iron-coated warhorses who are mounted with guys coveredd in iron and carrying big 9 foot spears arent very fast. Especially when trying to ride UP a hill. One of those riding UP a hill is maybe even slower than a normal guy running on a flat field.

And then heating that armour up slightly would perhaps make it VEEERY un-comfortable. It is propably already very hot in all that armour already, with some added heat that should completely burn those guys.

And any smart commander would have some spearmen (to slow down the impending doom and then eventually completely exterminate the impending doom) protecting his very valuable mages, thats common sense.

Or you know, just use some shock spells to kill the horses.

Yeah... But you should do this with some sort of... skill and elegance.
You can either kill a person by sending a fireball on him. Or you can summon spiderlings in his throat.

You can either make a fireball flying in your direction get shielded away by a fire shield spell. Or you could reflect the fireball, make it bigger and then push it back to the enemy mage. That should also save you the magicka needed to make the fireball from scratch...

No you can't... spiderlings will just be summoned either beside the person or the target, but not in the target.


Very few mages have the power to reflect spells, since Mysticism is a largely neglected school. And those that do still don't arbitrarily make it larger, and the reflect likely costs more than the fireball in the first place... And, unless it's a VERY powerful Reflect spell, there's no guarantee it will work.

Zombies wouldn't likely affect the horses, since they are battle-hardened to not be bothered by anything anyone can throw at them. Feather and Rally enchantments could be used on the heavy cavalry as well (These guys are likely wealthy enough to have their own magical support).

Of course, it may be better to kill the mages with the 8% of your light infantry that can turn invisible once a day to sneak up and kill the mages.

Against Bosmer, mages on hills don't work because arrows are very annoying, and Bosmer can get anywhere.

I think I've already elaborated on how Elsweyr's cavalry can just laugh at your mages before biting their heads off...

Redguards can take the brunt of the enemy spells at full force and still be badass enough to kick the mage's asses.

Properly equipped Bretons are like the Prince of Space! "Your Magic doesn't Affect me!" Fireball him!

All in all, putting all your mages in one area is inviting trouble. As observed in Oblivion: Arrows Kill everything, even the invisible guys immune to Damage and Magic.

Okay, okay... Thank god I am not the magician in the RPs.

Remember that people can get as micro involved as they'd like, but I would recommend not doing it at the cost of enjoyability.

For instance, this guide is very useful, but if you don't feel that you have to focus on the weight your soldiers carry in the roleplay, then don't. It is a fantasy setting after all and in the game you can tote around hundreds of pounds of things and move miles.

We determine how grounded in reality it all becomes.

The magic in my oppinion should rarely go elaborate and as complex as described in the above posts. My head hurts thinking about all the possibilities.