Yeah... I'm having a change of heart about my character. I doubt Aphren's plans will work out in the end, so I may take the position of a Wayrest leader - but a guerrilla who commands peasant militias outside of the siege of Wayrest. I'm dying to make rabblerousing speeches and trek through the highlands to come down like a hammer on the enemy train...

Oh, sorry GD, for hijacking the thread.

ey! I wanted to be the noble who is a guerilla commanding peasent militias. Sunnuva....

Duval should really post something in the guide about "Its not smart for commanders to betray each other when they have a common enemy."

Bretonic nobles are way too concentrated on killing their buds, if I wasn't such a nice guy the Redguards would be at your camp eating beans and pork by the time you returned.


Edited for truth.

Y'know, we could allus both be guerrillas together. Lol.

Marn and Storyteller, the underdogs together yet again. But this time back... with a vengeance :evil:

And Story, the correct adjective is Bretic, or Breton. Not Bretonic. And send yo tanks, send yo tanks! I got frags! - FPS Doug

Well, I'm also going to be pulling a teutonic group, you know to make the heathen nords realize the Nine is the true way. My guys will be known as the Bretonic Knights, now never correct me again!

Duval sorry about what I'm doing to your thread I'll stop bro.

Either way, the guide is great and if people don't read it then you deserve to have someone shove a garlic clove in your pancake.

Wow, awesome guide. I just joined Seige of Sentinel and it will certainly aid me there.

The Guide has been edited. If you don't feel like looking around for stuff, you'll find it posted right here below.

And unfortunately I don't believe that OOC threads are allowed in this forum. One would be so incredibly useful though...bah

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Types of equipment
Pikes
I've noticed that Pikes seem to be popping up as more and more popular in battle Rps. They are simple and very effective. The clashing of two Phalanxes or http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/9351/pikeblocknu4.jpg(I know the difference, but for this guide I'll use the term interchangeably) is a horrid and violent affair. Now, there are two styles of Pike fighting: Push and Point. They are exactly what it sounds like. Now I wont go into a detailed description of the effectiveness of pikes on different units, but just keep this in mind, the pike keeps the enemy far away, and as long as the enemy doesn't break into the formation, they can't hurt the pikemen.
Push style = An excellent account of what really happens when two pike blocks come together and hold their nerve can be found in the description of the Battle of Langside. Pike heads get caught in flesh, clothing, and armor, pushed down into the ground or thrust up into the air. Once the points became immobile, The pike blocks ended up "pushing each other to and fro with their spears." According to my sources , pike fighting, while extremely dangerous, was not very fatal. Men received ghastly wounds, but most survived. The real massacre began when one side or the other broke.
Point style = Less common than Push style is Point. This involves actual fencing with pikes. In period accounts of the English Civil War, one reads examples of the front few ranks becoming disabled, their pikes broken, dropped or stuck. These men then usually drew short swords and rapiers and went about a http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/5760/badwargw0.jpgon their knees while the two pike blocks pushed overhead. They cut pike shafts, tried to pull the enemies away, and generally caused problems. (God help me, this makes two times) But, for those of you who don't like reading, an excellent depiction of pike fighting can be seen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je-c81wwrpAwith Viggo Mortenson. It's on you tube, and shows the true horror of what the Swiss called "http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/9804/landsknechtsoldier14861tf6.jpg".
Pike blocks and phalanxes do have a very serious weakness, they cannot operate on rough terrain. In a formation that requires unity to survive, crossing a stream, walking through woods or climbing a fence might as well be a death sentence in the face of the enemy. Loose groups of men cannot and will not be able to defend themselves with a pike, it's all or nothing.

Arrows
Alright, now get ready. I'm going to express my own opinion about the effectiveness of missiles against armor. This is up there as being controversial as whether or not "Feudalism" is a real thing or not. Everyone who wants to send hate mail, please PM me. OK? Everyone clear on the rules?
In general, arrows are a very effective weapon. On the battlefield they can wound, disable and kill knights, soldiers and horses. However, unless at close range and using specially Bodkin tipped arrows, one cannot penetrate armor. (oh god, here comes the hate mail) Arrows are light weapons, and usually fired at an arc. At long ranges, the momentum is spent and it does not have the force to break chain mail or plate. At close ranges, they can cut through chain mail with ease (remember the bodkins) and sometimes can pierce plate. There are medieval accounts of mailed knights being literally pincushion with arrows, but sustaining no wounds. Most of the French dead at Agincourt who died from arrows received those wounds in the joints of the armor, where there was only simple mail, at close range.
Now, on top of that, http://www.centenaryarchers.gil.com.au/images/arrow-heads.jpgses. You give everyone bodkin arrows, expect a lot of wounds, but few deaths. You give everyone broad heads, you'll wreak havoc on the infantry, but the Knights will soak up arrow fire like a sponge and keep coming.
Unlike in Oblivion, it's rather difficult to carry around 300 arrows on your person. Even with a quiver archers will most likely be limited to between 15 and 30 arrows. Like in real battles, you will be forced to scramble around, back and forth to the baggage carts to retrieve more.
As for flaming arrows. I know they look awesome in movies, but no. They don't work in real life. The rag attached to the end makes an otherwise precise weapon imbalanced, the speed of it flying through the air is usually enough to put out the flame mid flight too. I don't care what you saw in gladiator or Total war, real life doesn't work like that. If anyone can dig up PRIMARY sources that talk about the effective use of flaming arrows, I'll change my story. Outside of that, flaming arrows, like explosions = stupid.

Swords
I think this area is pretty much common sense. I'll only comment on a few things I think are underrepresented. First off, swords, like every thing else in life have varying levels of quality. A knights hand crafted sword, fitted to his height, weight, balance and fighting style will be more robust than a normal foot soldiers. If said knight rides up to said foot soldier, there I a chance that that PBI's sword will shatter. Swords are not axes, crowbars, hammers, or any other kind of tool. They are swords. You use one to cut firewood, to open a lock, or anything else it's not made to do, it will break. Block with the edge, it will chip. Use it too much, or if the sword is too old, it could snap. Get the point? (haHA! Punny!)

Battlefield confusion
As the name says, a battlefield is very confusing. There are a number of factors that come into play which cause problems. Noise and smoke are the two biggest. Noise, is rather obvious and wont be discussed. Smoke however can come from a number of different sources. Ever driven down a dirt road in a car or on a bike? You know that trail of dust kicked up? Imagine that coming from the feet of ten or twenty thousand guys. Unless it rained the day before a battle, your men will probably kick up at least some dirt. If you're in a desert, or in the middle of a dry spell, expect that dust to become a fog. This can cause men to be confused, to attack allies (Green on green) charge when they shouldn't or retreat if they're winning. Yes I know it'll hurt your cause if you portray this part in an RP. However, if you go about it in a mature fashion, it brings a ton of interest and character to the RP.

Screens
In games like Rome: Total war or Cossacks, you're given a top down perspective of the battle. That's not what you would see in real life. Try this out, just to get a taste. Open up one of the Total war games, go to options and change your perspective to the thing called general cam. Now play a skirmish. Hard isn't it? Not having an all seeing eye complicates things a great deal.
Hand in hand with this part on perspective is something called a screen, almost unheard of in almost every battle RP I've ever played, from TES through world war 2 (sigh, I miss the old DoD Forum RPs). A screen is where you place a line of skirmishers, cavalry, whatever in front of your men. Those skirmishers kick up dust, the horseman even more so. The enemy only sees who's in front, and it's very hard to determine the amount of men one is facing. Again, it takes a mature Rper to pretend you can't see something in someone else's post. Yea we know your opponent is massing on your left, but does your character know that? Not likely. Not likely unless you use?

Scouts
How else will you know what is going on in front of you or around you if you don't send out scouts. Usually mounted and on good horses, these men are the eyes of your army. Without them sending back information, how will you general know what's in front of him. Imagine that war is a huge, expensive game of blind man's bluff. Your scouts would be the hands you have stretched in front of you to keep you from running into a tree.

Moving through a line of men
Unlike in videogames, this maneuver is actually extremely difficult one to pull off in real life. Say you have some skirmishers out front. Enemy cavalry is menacing, and the skirmishers pull back. Where are they going to go? You'd better have a gap in your lines to let them through, otherwise they'll force their way through your men and create gaps. Now, go to the cavalry section and read what happens when there are gaps in your line. it's the same thing for retreating men. The bad thing about retreating men is they'll probably be freaking out, and claw their own way through your line. On a battle field, panic spreads like chickenpox in kindergarten. Better to mqke room for those pqniced men rather thqn hqve them fight their way through.

The push
This one is simple physics. The more men you have one behind another, the greater force and momentum is present. Like the Thebans at Leuctra, and the French army during the Napoleanic period, a huge mass of men will push aside a thin line. If you have five hundred men in a three deep line, and the enemy had five hundred men in a five wide column of a hundred rows, That column will put a significant dent in your line because for each man fighting there's a hundred pushing on his back. This becomes especially important for Pike blocks (See push style) The French used this simple tactic to dominate all of Europe and beyond. The only way the British were able to defeat the great columns were by stopping them with musketry before they reached the thin red line.

Prolonged fighting
sometimes battles lasted all day, and into the next. Fighting is difficult and tiring, after extended hacking and stabbing, the poor bloody infantry would get tired. There were and will be lulls in the fighting. It's entirely possible for the men to remain behind their shields, catching their breath and staring at the enemy a mere two or three feet away. Sporadic and unplanned breaks have happened. After a brief rest, or once an officer sees the men not doing their job, fighting may flare up again. (they are on the clock after all?) Hardly would make a good fight scene in LOTR or Alexander, but it happens. The longer a unit is engaged in prolonged fighting the less likely it will be to attack or advance. The physical and mental stress of fighting wears down ones willpower (the real kind not the skills kind).

Really like the Scout and Prolonged fighting sections. Necessary additions.

Do you have any views on potion rations? Such as carrying minor healing potions to dress on the scene battle wounds such as a shallow gash or perhaps armor hidr an arrow but it still caused a booboo. Potions re commonplace in the game, and it would be wise of governments to invest in a giving of potions for their armed forces.

I'm saying like thirty potions i'm saying like three at most.

Also, there is this general rule that Sword Infantry (footmen) can beat line of pikemen. I cannot and have never realized why this is. It seems to me that any trained pikeman wouldn't let some swordsman bat his pike away. Also I don't see a group of soldiers charging into a wall of spikes anytime soon.

So it seems pikeman would be superior infantry to have, though less mobile.

Well, Pikeman are only useful when their flanks are well protected. There lack of mobility prevents them from turning to face a new enemy say coming from the left or right flank, unlike, say infantrymen who can turn about. Not to mention, formation would be incredibly hard to maintain unless on flat terrain like a plain or such. In a battle where the enemy armies are directly facing each other, then yes, but chances are your not going to get into a fight where your opponent is going to fight you face to face when you have a large number of pikemen. Or thats what I have gathered, given the need to keep the unit closely packed together to present a unified wall of pikes or spears.

Mage healers should carry the potions on them, along with restore magicka. A troop stopping the fight to drink a potion or apply it to a wound could end up getting killed, due to having to stop fighting. Unless they were special forces or something, then they could have a few because their would most likely be no healers. But I'd say that this would be the best set up. Of course every army does things the way they want.

And that general rule of sword infantry is only in effect when ST (thats me, also the true writer of this guide until Duval stole my ideas via pm) controls those men. Because I exude excellence.

I believe a trained pike block would be able to order its flank soldiers to just pull their pke to their shoulder, turn and lower their weapon. I mean of course its more complicated than that, but its not like their going tolet those enemy soldiers crash into their flank.

Thats only my opinion though.

Well history shows us that if it was that easy it would have been done, because phalanxes have had super nasty tendencies to get whooped in bad terrain and by more mobile units.

Right. A Phalanx, or Pike Block is extremely limited in its combat capabilities, which is why its almost necessary to have supporting units on the flanks or other wise their nearly useless. As for turning, well, a pike or spear used by a Pike Block or Phalanx is extremely long and surely heavy, being able to quickly maneuver over to face an attacker coming from a different direction seems near impossible without busting up the formation. Like you though Heldwyn, this is just my opinion, Ive never been in one, so I can't say for sure how hard it is

Ok I can see your point with pikes formation plays an importanrole in the tactic. If you break formation you weaken the use of the pike. Having a mixed army with pikemen with protection from other mixed units they can be utilized. ( Cavalry and footmen, musketeers supporting the pike block)


Alas i've realized another use for this topic, to simply dicuss important tactics and other things important so we can all come to an agreement on stuff, as well as find new things to import to the Abrasive Guide. TES is different in many ways from the real world as it is similar. It's only realistic to help GD fill those gaps using not only his (surely) extensive knowdge of the TES world but ours as well.

Its great for sharing. But if your goal is to win all the roleplay battles, then this can be basically used as a cheat sheet to survive and win wars. It detracts from actual roleplaying however, when all characters a roleplayer makes are basically just "Good fighters, good commanders, and excellent tacticians."

So I may spice it up in High Rock a bit.

Believe me, i dont claim to know everything about the way a battle works. The stuff i wrote was baised off more of the real life stuff rather than TES. I'm rather inept when it comes to fantasy magic and that, so the healing potions i wont add in.

as for the pike block, it's problem about being flanked is only one of awareness. If the pikemen see that they are going to be hit from the side, its a 5 second move to turn out and lower the pike. most of the time when a block gets hammered bad, it's because smoke and other crap blinded the men, and they didnt realize it till late.

as for swordsmen against a pike block, it really rather depends on the situation and the skill of both sides. the swordsmen will take horrific casualties trying to break into a well defended block, and then once in, the pikemen will probably just switch to short swords.

I am of the opinion that a combined arms approach would work very well, akin to the Spanish Tercios or Landsneckt pike blocks. the swordsmen protecting the pikemen, while missle troops rain shot.

-GD

Whenever i play Rome: Total War, and i am up against Phalanxes, i just swing cavalry round to a hidden position and assualt. It breaks them every time.

Don't base any realism on a game.

I was under the impression those games were realistic. Obviously i was wrong.

Also, i hear some of you talk about a new ImmortalBlood rp, may i enquire what it is about? Or is it confidential or something?

That tactic is actually very effective though. If you have infantry facing off against a phalanxe, which has to aim their spears in the same direction in order to maintain effectiveness, and must keep formation in order to live. Cavarly attacking their flanks or behind would definately make them panic and switch formation, allowing infantry to do their work. Either way they are forced to break formation.

Edit:Wrathchild, if you stick around after Siege of Sentinel, expect a sequel. The Immortalbloodtimeline is an ongoing world. What happens in this roleplay, determines the future of the others. High Rock is the location. Sunny beaches, beautiful women, and Knights with big swords. Great place.

like i said, if you have a trained phalanx, the men can hold. It's not like in the games where guys being attacked from the side dont fight back and just willingly take a sword to the dome. If the men are trained, they can lower pikes to the right, left and behind...

and you forget, highrock is also full of useless bastard nobles...stupid bretons

It's not necessarily that they aren't realistic, but I wouldn't base anything on what you have seen in a game. For that example, you were right, bringing cavalry into a phalanx's exposed side is a sure fire way to rout them or at the least cause heavy damage, as not only will they be unprepared, as soon as the horses hit it'll knock them all back in the shock, thus most likely causing a rout even with a small number of cavalry.

But, in Total war games, they also have cannons on elephants. Not that realistic. And also, such things as some cavalry charges being able to charge headfirst into a phalanx formation and still defeat them is very unlikely, and as has already been stated earlier in the guide, fire arrows.

You take that back! I'm coming to help your drunk ass lol.

And the BB shall follow dutifully!

I want to play in a politcal/war RP, but I've never taken part in one before. Next time one starts up, I'll see about joining it. Any tips and/or advice for a guy who's never played in one?