If there is a problem, it's entirely subjective. If you wish for a game that monitors your level of awesome and constantly adjusts so that you always have the same game... well, I guess there's a market for that. I'd personally rather have a more unpredictable world that has definite challenges, some which are too much for me at lower levels. It simply doesn't make sense to have a world that has no barriers when you're talking about levels. Why even have levels? If everything just follows you up & down the levels.... why?

IMO natch.

I think there shouldn't be any level scaling at all.

There are two kinds of enemies in Skyrim. Those that will die with 2-3 slashes with a blade and those that will take 40 seconds of dodging and slashing&hacking until they die.

What about those that like it the way It is?

I've already addressed this.

Scaling isn't a problem, prevents you from getting too overpowered early on.

I agree, but and it solves all this scaling noise, but it's impossible to implement if you have free roaming games like SK or OB.

That said, I find the leveling in SK to be vastly superior to OB which was terrible.

My suggestion - make the Easy - Master slider have a tougher setting than Master. As to those who say they've managed to strategize so as to make the game too easy, remember there are maybe 350,000 copies of this game sold so far and maybe 500 people finding it too easy. They happen to hang out here making them seem more in number than they really are.

The game has to appeal to the other 349,500 folks (and those who will buy tomorrow) more than to the 500 hard core types.

Then based on the criteria and adjustments, you wouldn't be any the wiser. Meaning, if you like it the way it is that's because the game adjusted to your criteria. Basically, keeping things the same for YOU. The difficulty personalizes your game. Your game type. Your game play. Your RPG.

Oh there are several reasons they won't "fix" it.
1.) It's not broken in their eyes. They made what they wanted, this is it. How dare you suggest they change their masterpiece.
2.) The game is done. Changing things much now might open up twelve new cans of worms.

You'd have better luck placing this in the mods forum.

Your easy fix adds three more variables to scaling. Each one increases the complexity of getting the formula just right. Not to mention that they present their own unique challenges.

Do you look at item quality and improvement level for equipped gear, or all gear carried by the player? If the former, the system is exploitable (run around in low-quality gear, change your equipped items once the enemy level has been set). If the latter, the system needs factor in a number of complications. Do you take an average of all the items in their inventory? How do you know what the player uses and what is simply loot they pick up? Just the highest quality item? What if they looted amazing heavy armor but they only use light?

How about perk level—are all perks equal? Clearly, we can't have enemies scale up because someone maxed the Lockpicking or Speech tree, right? How do we compare the benefits of Sneak perks and Two-Handed Weapon perks? Do enemies scale up just because the player takes less falling damage in Heavy Armor? Are you assigning a "value" to every perk in your "simple" solution, or just trusting it to balance out. What about those who hoard perk points, then spend them once they enter the dungeon? Are you going to program a system that adjusts on the fly or let them cheese that one dungeon?

Also, if enemies become more difficult as you improve weapons or invest in perks like Barbarian, then you have effectively done no improvement whatsoever. How do you balance this to maintain an enjoyable experience for the player? After all, if they don't improve, they won't notice the difference, since that factor of enemy scaling doesn't apply. Are spawns randomized to keep low-level enemies in the mix so the player can actually see the benefit of their improvements? Or do the scaling boosts to enemies advance slightly slower than the player improvements? How do you fight against the effects of power creep (on either side) without limiting player choice and without making the player feel like they're running in place, especially in a system where so many separate elements are part of the formula?

In my opinion, the effect you describe (the game becoming too easy or too hard) is, by and large, unavoidable in RPGs. Unlike games such as shooters or platformers, where reflexes, coordination, and awareness determine player skill, RPGs tend to measure success and failure using the systems of decision-making and planning (perk choices, builds, etc.) and, at times, random chance (e.g., attack rolls). Some RPGs, Skyrim included, eschew randomness for basic action elements (aiming a bow, connecting with power attacks, block timing). But the decisions made while building your character still have a tremendous impact—make the wrong choice, and the game gets hard. If you boost Stamina on your mage, pick perks that work against your playstyle, or don't spend time making intelligent gear choices, you're doing it wrong. So, you need to make a system forgiving enough that some mistakes can happen. Go too far doing that, however, and someone who makes no mistakes, or exploits imbalances in the system to optimize their character will end up with a very easy game. Too far the other way, and there's a serious barrier to entry. What you're looking for is a system that can check, intelligently and thoroughly, for a players level of "min/max" and adjust accordingly. Maybe it's possible, but it sure as heck ain't as easy as you claim.

...Except that defeates the whole purpose.

The work involved IS the fixing process.

....or they just do what morrowind did -_-

Personally I hate the idea of scalling as you suggested it.

I hate that the gameworld changes in relation to your player. The scaling your describe would be very similar to Oblivion which pretty much wrote the book on how not to implement level scaling.

I have no problem with parts of the gameworld that 1 hit me and I need to avoid in awe and wonder until I have approached a high level, at which point you feel a sense of achievement for having progressed to the point to master that content.

It does my head in that lowly wolves around villiage A, will become mighty wolves and then wolves of the gods as they scale with you. Totally messes with immersion and suspension of disbelief. Gameworld is just screaming at you "I'm not real, I'm not real".

Level scaled loot......... pretty much means your choice of dungeon to explore is utterly pointless and irrelevant as the dungeon contents are driven by your level and nothing else.

1. If you want to run around in Light Armor when you're usually in Heavy, that's your prerogative. The difficulty would adjust to Heavy Armor as if that's what you generally wear, then you probably have the points in Heavy Armor. If you're running around in Heavy Armor with the Light Armor perks all lit up and complete you've kind of gimped yourself out of a murder of perk points.

2. The levels would adjust based on combat perks only. Not things like Speech or Lockpicking. If you're running around with 100 in Lockpicking and Speech and nothing in One Handed or a mess of spells, again, that's your prerogative and the game is probably already a challenge because you've created a Generic Citizen and not a hero. We're Dragonborn. We're being called on to save Nirn from Alduin. Not help single mothers unlock their mini van.

3. The game will present challenges on a mob by mob basis. Some may scale differently than others. A scaled Skeever won't be as tough as a scaled Wight. Sure, it will still be scaled but not as dramatically. The game scales to keep things fresh and challenging while still offering you the feeling of being accomplished and powerful. Maybe the mobs progress slower, but not so much so that we're right back to where we began. One shotting things isn't fun. It's fun at first but loses it's luster.

Building an addition onto my house is easy. I have the blueprints handy and the tools and materials needed. Also the wherewithal and skills needed. The WORK is hard, though. Separate ideas.

Yeah, I've never been a fan of this type of difficulty modification; just having enemies become damage sponges doesn't make it harder so much as it makes the game more tedious. So, instead of swinging 4 times I have to swing 6-8 times. There comes a point where it's just tiring to kill things while not requiring more in terms of strategy or tactics.

The problem isn't level-scaling, the problem is scaled-spawns.



Look at Oblivion. What scales in Oblivion? Ogres, Lichs, Brown Bears, Minotaur Lords, Xivali, Dremora Lords and one other type of ghost. Everything else hits a roof. Anyone disagree with any of those enemies scaling? Again, those are, according to lore, very deadly. Yes Bandits also scaled, yes it was ridiculous, but ignore bandits just for a moment. I'll get back to those.

Look at Fallout 3. What scaled in Fallout 3? Deathclaws. Deathclaws, Super Mutant Overlords and a bunch of DLC enemies. Yes, backwards hillbillies ended up being more powerful than military personnel with laser rifles and power armor, again, ignore them for the moment.

Case and point, what scales in Fallout New Vegas? NCR Ranger Veterans, Brotherhood of Steel Paladins, Deathclaws and some DLC enemies (like 2). Why do these scale? Because the lore of the game says these are flippin' deadly, so it'd sure as hell feel weird if they couldn't leave a dent in you. Anyone disagree with this logic? I hope not.


The problem is that whereas Fallout New Vegas just stuck those enemies where you would expect them, Oblivion shoved them in your face. Where you would once expect to see a timberwolf hanging out, suddenly there's a pair of Minotaur lords there. Imagine if you were playing Fallout New Vegas, and then when you walk up to a location named "Mole Rat hill," suddenly there's no longer molerats there, but friggin' Deathclaws. Imagine if you went to wage war on the Legion, but suddenly instead of Legionnaires, there's friggin' Deathclaw Legionnaires.

That's the exact problem we're talking about with Oblivion and Skyrim. FO:NV did level-scaling perfectly. FO3 did level-scaling perfectly until DLC came out. Once the DLC came out, Broken Steel seemed to replace every spawn in the northern region with a deathclaw spawn and every super mutant spawn with a Super Mutant Overlord spawn. Point Lookout also thought making hillbillies stronger than Jesus Christ + Elvis Presley combined was a great idea, but that was more of a....logic flaw, than anything. They picked the stupidest [censored] enemy to beef up; I think people would welcome a stronger, leveled-enemy for a DLC, but ffs it looks ridiculous if Hillbillies can one-shot you but power-armored soldiers with plasma rifles can't tickle you. BUT BEFORE THOSE DLCS, Fallout 3 was fine.
Oblivion was the worst. EVERY spawn along the roads suddenly had to spawn a Minotaur Lord or an Ogre or a Bear. If you saw a wolf, you thought "holy [censored] [censored], a wolf" and took pictures and sent them to your friends and family to prove you weren't insane. And the Bandits. The bandits were stupid because suddenly everyone and their mother was decked out with full glass armor. What would've made Oblivion perfect? Make the spawns realistic. Don't spawn ogres on the roads just because you know I hang out on the roads; stick them in the flippin' mountains, where they're supposed to be. Don't stick Minotaur Lords on the roads just because you know I'm there. Give them their area of the map where they're supposed to spawn a lot or more frequently. Let wolves and weak bandits continue to spawn here and there.


So what's Skyrim's problem then? Well for one...you know how I would expect Deathclaws to be strong because the lore says so, and thus I want deathclaws to level-scale? You know how I would expect Lichs to level-scale because they're supposed to be powerful? Well, some genius down at Bethesda decided we should make a game that centers around a certain legendary-type of enemy stalking the player. So ta-da, level-scaled dragons being rubbed in your face. It wouldn't matter if dragons were the ONLY enemy that level scales, because unfortunately they're so frequent that you're going to prep for them no matter what. And that's the exact problem with ALL the level-scaled enemies of Skyrim: they're a guarentee. Yes, you might find 12 weakling bandits that you can one-shot throughout this cave, but you know that the bandit that's standing in front of the loot chest is gonna be Chuck-[censored]-Norris. So does it matter? No, not at all, because by the end of the day and the end of the dungeon, you've gotta prep for Chuck-[censored]-Norris.


The moral of the story is, if an enemy is legendary lore-wise, then sure, level-scale it. However, with that, there's a few things to remember:

1) Legendary all-powerful enemies? Generally not all that common. If they were, everyone would be dead. So stop spawning them EVERYWHERE.
2) Bandits and Hillbillies? Probably not legendary all-powerful enemies. Let them rot, don't level-scale them.
3) If an Ogre prefers living in the mountains, what does my level have to do with his habitat? "[censored], the protagonist hit level 45. Let's migrate to every possible climate on the map." Like wtf? No, leave him in his little area. He's allowed to level-scale; he's a [censored] ogre. But he also has to stay in his little mountain range....because he's a [censored] ogre.


Does that make sense?

there are plenty of reasons as to why they dont have to fix level scaling like the fact that it actually works well and they finished the game

This too is a problem and one I see in Skyrim quite a bit. On Master there are those mobs that I may not 1-3 shot. It's more like 4-6 shot. All the while he's swinging at me and I'm not even seeing my HP bar move. What in the hell is that? Ridiculous if you ask me.

It does make a lot of sense.

And I don't think it would necessarly make the game more linear, or restrict freedom at all.

Farther from civilisation would only mean higher probability of high level creatures. Low level creatures would still spawn there, perhaps in a lower probability, since they too would be affraid of the bigger guys. Kinda like random encouter tables (forgive the DnD reference) based on "distance from civilisation" and "géographic features" . That way, the possibility for player of any level to go everywhere would still be in, but more cautiousness would be needed before venturing farther into the wild, at any level. Some randomness would ensure that the freedom in exploration is somewhat maintained.

I would like something like that. Perhaps the map is not big enough for that kind of system to be implemented though...

Hahah. 10/10. I loved the parts that the forum censored. I kept adding weird words in instead of the curse words I know you probably originally used. I don't understand why EVERY Elder Scrolls suffers from scaling issues, but (for most part) the Fallout series gets it right (to a degree).

During the loading screen the game tells me that Ice Trolls are the most ferocious of their kind. Pfft. No they aren't. On master they are 3 shot. Pffffft. Scale the bandit leaders. Maybe not the general rabble of bandits in front of him. But the leader is...well he's the leader. He's supposed to be tougher. He's the LEADER.

Right now, on Master, Dragon Priests and bears are the same caliber enemy. That's an issue. That's all there is to it. That's broken and ridiculous.

There is nothing wrong with scaling in Skyrim. Nothing.

Care to elucidate or am I to take you on your word? Because as I see it (and I just said this in another post) having Dragon Priests and bears be equally difficult (well, easy) is kind of dumb.

I have no idea what you mean, never has a Dragon Priest and a Bear been as difficult as each other for me. In the very beginning Bears were tough, now they're easy. Dragon Priests have always been tough.

Working for Obsidian and doing a fantastic job on the scaling in NV.

@Longknife

Exactly, but it shouldn't be possible to kill a [censored]in dragon before you hit Level 20 or higher. And they along with the dragon priests should be a bit harder on master with fully enchanted gear.

Ah! See!? Now this would be a fun discussion if Bethesda would only take to heart my tailored difficulty setting idea!

SO SAY WE ALL.