Ace-Of-All-Trades

Post » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:39 am

So, I've been noticing a certain level of enmity towards the idea of creating or building a character thats good at, well, everything. Its like, everyone on these forums is such an RPer that they feel that anyone who dares create a character who can complete everything in the game is somehow breaking some unwritten rule. I mean, really, the very idea seems to throw some people into fits of rage and disgust.

Now, I'll admit, specialization is the most realistic, heck, specialization is the key to modern society, but is it really so bad to break this rule?

I guess this topic mostly comes up when people discuss the systems that determine character stats (classes, perks, leveling, attributes, etc...) And within those topic, I agree, one of my biggest fears of skyrim is that the game will reward those who spread themselves out the most. BUT, i also know from experience in both Morrowind and Oblivion, that I always, without fail, end up building a so-called "god class" after I've done pretty much everything in the game once before with a more specialized character. Yes, the game was harder as this type of character, I wasn't particularily fantastic at anything, but I was good at everything, more-so in Oblivion when I could actually max everything, and while in certain situations the specialized characters I'd built would be much, much better, I think in general this character was, in fact, the best, because he wasn't just good at everything, but I as the player got good at combining his skills to their fullest ("combinations" being things like alchemy, a magic skill, being used to supplement melee or ranged attacks, this being the most obvious example). And combining those skills effectively takes some real player skill, I can tell you, which I felt was rewarding, because I knew, yes, my character though good at everything would die if I only used 1 side of his skill tree.

I guess the point is, before I loose my train of thought, the two biggest complaints I hear is "its unrealistic" and "if you include god class characters thats what everyone will end up" and I, too, hate the idea that I'm going to end up where everyone else is. But I still think god classes have a place in Elder Scrolls.

For the first issue, I say, yes, it is unrealistic, to a degree, though history is replete with real live examples of men who seemed good at everything, which is where the idea of the "Renaissance Man" comes from (look it up) and even if thats not good enough, your freakin destined, and I'm not saying a destiny automatically makes you superhuman, but i think that part of what makes elder scrolls so great is that even though you are 'destined' its up to YOU to decide what your avatars destiny is. Again, like I said, in the end, my characters destiny in Oblivion WAS to be Archmage, Grandmaster, Listener and the Grey Fox... yes, I imagined him as a 60 year old man who looks 45 cause he's so well built and taken care of himself in body, mind, and spirit, but yeah, i kept things in perspective in my mind, alot of time had passed, but he was still destined to be the coolest thing since sliced bread, and I liked that that option was open to me.

For the second issue, I think they just need to, plain and simple, make the system favor specialization, while not making spreading yourself out impossible, similar too, but not like the previous games. Something I like about the classless system is that it takes all the skill farming and pre-planning required to make that even a possibility.

Seriously, i have a save file on my xbox... 240 hours played, and not so much as ONE quest, even undocumented ones, done. Skill farming is ridiculous. And yeah, you could say thats my fault for wanting it, but I only wanted to be virtually perfect AFTER I'd done everything else. I don't think perfection should require that much wiki-searching and farming.

Anyways, I'm done now, and I've probably confused my own topic a bit, but I just want to see what this community has to say about god-classes. OBVIOUSLY the game shouldn't favor them like in Fable, that makes all other classes irrelevant, but are they really such a sin to commit?
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Vincent Joe
 
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Post » Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:37 am

There nothing really wrong with RPing a JOAT, or a AOAT if you actually have a reason for them to be so "god like". Although this could easily and will OP your character, but I'm not one to tell you how to play tyour game. My problem with it is that you get more out of a TES by doing everything in the game through multiple "niche" characters, opposed to doing everything in the game with one JOAT character.
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Kayla Bee
 
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Post » Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:57 am

In my opinion, you should be able to become in a Jack-of-all-trades if you have invested enough - that would be much, MUCH - time. I don't like to play as one, but if someone wants to be so, and spends the time needed... why not?
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kelly thomson
 
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Post » Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:07 am

In my opinion, you should be able to become in a Jack-of-all-trades if you have invested enough - that would be much, MUCH - time. I don't like to play as one, but if someone wants to be so, and spends the time needed... why not?


because somehow it feels more logical that if someone were to invest all that time developing only one skill, hed be better at it then said Jack-Of -All-Trades-Guy
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Danel
 
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Post » Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:58 am

Specialization is for insects. My hero will be a hollist as well.
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Betsy Humpledink
 
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Post » Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:56 am

The wall of text in the op throws me off but the thing with a JOAT is that it's unlikely for one person to be the head of every guild etc. since these masters should be, well masters, and not something everybody should be able to be... Hell my oblivion khajiit, being stealth-bow/s-n-b backup, were head of every guild(fighters,mages,thiefs,DB) wasnt very RP but it was fun to be the ehh. gray fox? and head of the fighters guild at the same time :D
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LADONA
 
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Post » Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:10 pm

There nothing really wrong with RPing a JOAT, or a AOAT if you actually have a reason for them to be so "god like". Although this could easily and will OP your character, but I'm not one to tell you how to play tyour game. My problem with it is that you get more out of a TES by doing everything in the game through multiple "niche" characters, opposed to doing everything in the game with one JOAT character.



ehh for a lot of people that just takes too damn long. TES and Fallout are great but Ive never been inclined to play the same events over again. I doubt the radiant story will change this either.
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James Wilson
 
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Post » Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:10 am

And within those topic, I agree, one of my biggest fears of skyrim is that the game will reward those who spread themselves out the most.


I really don't see that happening in Skyrim, just the opposite in fact. In Oblivion I always played a Spellsword, a melee/magic hybrid. And it wasn't all that difficult to become good in both of those areas. But with only 50 perks to choose from out of a total of 280, I can see myself having to make sacrifices if I want to play that type of character. If I decide to improve my magical abilities through my choice of a perk, my melee will suffer, and vice versa. I can most definitely see a "pure" melee character being better in that particular area than a hybrid would. The same will apply with magic.
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Sarah Edmunds
 
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Post » Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:46 am

ehh for a lot of people that just takes too damn long. TES and Fallout are great but Ive never been inclined to play the same events over again. I doubt the radiant story will change this either.

What? Your not doing the same events over again. People put 1000s of hours into TES games, I think they have time to make more than one JOAT action game character.
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Soph
 
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Post » Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:23 am

because somehow it feels more logical that if someone were to invest all that time developing only one skill, hed be better at it then said Jack-Of -All-Trades-Guy


Yeees. But what I'm proposing is that he would have to spend the same time as you to develop that skills, and then the same time developing other one, and then that time developing another... invested enough time, he could become in a Jack-of-all-trades, but it would be a LONG time.
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Lew.p
 
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Post » Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:12 pm

What? Your not doing the same events over again. People put 1000s of hours into TES games, I think they have time to make more than one JOAT action game character.



I played Oblivion for 300 hours (still not 100% finished) but I would absolutely never want to start afresh with a new character. The day I lose my file because of some error or mistake, is the day Im done playing Oblivion


Making different characters just isnt fun to me. It takes too long. It can be repetitive and usually the 1st one I made is what I'd prefer to play as. The last thing I want is to be locked out of content. Id rather just be able to play 300 hours and do everything in one go

(not saying I need to be great at all the skills, but I'd rather not see factions and quests locked off too often)
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Mario Alcantar
 
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Post » Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:22 pm

Yeees. But what I'm proposing is that he would have to spend the same time as you to develop that skills, and then the same time developing other one, and then that time developing another... invested enough time, he could become in a Jack-of-all-trades, but it would be a LONG time.


you somehow preface the whole issue by having ace-of-all-trades have more time than the specialized guy? why does ace-of-all-trades have more time?

its like: you have your whole life to learn a skill or a bunch of skill, and somehow ace-of-all-trades gets some bonus time just because he decided to branch out . . . why?
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~Sylvia~
 
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Post » Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:01 am

I played Oblivion for 300 hours (still not 100% finished) but I would absolutely never want to start afresh with a new character. The day I lose my file because of some error or mistake, is the day Im done playing Oblivion


Making different characters just isnt fun to me. It takes too long. It can be repetitive and usually the 1st one I made is what I'd prefer to play as. The last thing I want is to be locked out of content. Id rather just be able to play 300 hours and do everything in one go

And thats fine, but some people (a lot really) RP in an RPG. Making a Mage that only does mage things, a thief that isn't going through the fighters guild etc. 300 hours? That's one of a dozen or so character for me.
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Matt Gammond
 
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Post » Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:40 am

you somehow preface the whole issue by having ace-of-all-trades have more time than the specialized guy? why does ace-of-all-trades have more time?

its like: you have your whole life to learn a skill or a bunch of skill, and somehow ace-of-all-trades gets some bonus time just because he decided to branch out . . . why?



it had more to do with the skills having a limit.
there's only so much you can master in swordsmanship as well in real life. people have natural limits that they can't overcome.
an ace of all trades would recognize when it's time to move on and master other skills, as for what reason...i don't know, but as for me i'd go with "reaching for enlightenment" by mastering all that the world has to offer.
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Tracy Byworth
 
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Post » Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:23 pm

Being a JOAT is always a good way to begin a newer game, you can always specialize in a particular skill in later characters you may create.
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Klaire
 
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Post » Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:23 pm

you somehow preface the whole issue by having ace-of-all-trades have more time than the specialized guy? why does ace-of-all-trades have more time?

its like: you have your whole life to learn a skill or a bunch of skill, and somehow ace-of-all-trades gets some bonus time just because he decided to branch out . . . why?


It's not that...

Let's say tou have spent 100 hours on getting the maximun at 1h weapons, heavy armor and block. Then, you keep on using this skills. The guy who wants to be a Jack-of-all-trades spends the same time than you to get the maximun at that skills, but then he wants to get better at spells so he spends a veery long time imrpoving restauration, and conjuration, and destruction... spent enought time, he would become in a Jack-of-all-trades. Where is the problem about that?
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Alyesha Neufeld
 
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Post » Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:47 pm

it had more to do with the skills having a limit.
there's only so much you can master in swordsmanship as well in real life. people have natural limits that they can't overcome.
an ace of all trades would recognize when it's time to move on and master other skills, as for what reason...i don't know, but as for me i'd go with "reaching for enlightenment" by mastering all that the world has to offer.


in real life, yes, people have natural limits . . . but, if you want to go that way (the realistic way) . . . being highly specialized in one skill will close the door to specializing another skill

you cant be a world class free climber and the deadlift world record holder (just an example of strength vs agility)

im extremely against aces of all trades . . . its not realistic, it doesnt force you to make choices, it doesnt reward someone who invests everyhting into developing a single skill, no replay value . . .
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Louise Andrew
 
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Post » Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:45 pm

The perk limit will ensure people cant become a god character with all abilities. I hope at least, but that seems to be the point. By end game character's will be gods anyway, so I don't see where the issue is concerning Skyrim specifically. In oblivion it was really broken once you knew how to farm skills. Well, the entire leveling system was broken really. I don't really think it was that big of a problem in morrowind. It's all about preference really, I always used to do everything with one character, then when I started a new game do all the faction quests all over again. It did get a tad repetitive. But this time I'm going to create many new characters that will only do certain quests.
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Bad News Rogers
 
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Post » Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:03 pm

in real life, yes, people have natural limits . . . but, if you want to go that way (the realistic way) . . . being highly specialized in one skill will close the door to specializing another skill

you cant be a world class free climber and the deadlift world record holder (just an example of strength vs agility)

im extremely against aces of all trades . . . its not realistic, it doesnt force you to make choices, it doesnt reward someone who invests everyhting into developing a single skill, no replay value . . .


it's not just real life, in the game world skills have a mathematical limit as well.

it kinda goes both ways in skyrim. a person can specialize in 2 or 3 skill trees and have high level perks for those and after lv50 he could rise all his other skills to 100 but he would have no more perks

a jack of all trades would have low/mid level perks scattered throughout all the skill trees (i'm assuming higher perks have a skill level requirement) and after lv50 he could rise his skills to 100 but he wouldn't have higher level perks
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Rob Davidson
 
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Post » Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:12 am

There is a Perk cap of 50, you won't be able to be a true God of all Trades anymore.



However you can still get 100 in all skill and get kinda close to it, depends on how powerful maxing out a Perk Tree really is.
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Sanctum
 
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Post » Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:41 am

No enmity towards playing jack-of-all-trades. I've played one often enough myself.
Just dislike the idea that a jack-of-all-trades can be as good a mage as a mage, and as good a warrior as a warrior, and as good a thief as a thief, all at the same time, which was a problem IMO with the levelling system in previous TES games (well except Arena).
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Symone Velez
 
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Post » Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:58 am

I can be a bit obsessive about being good at everything in TES games - sometimes I play a character with the specific intention of seeing just how good I can get all my skills!

It's fun for me to do that and another way to play the game, usually after I've concentrated on more specialised characters, it's not hurting anyone else so I don't understand why people would hope that I am unable to do that, and it's not an easy thing to accomplish so it's not like everyone will play that way or you'll find yourself accidentally maxing everything. I know there's a limit on perks, but I am still likely to want to play one really long completionist game (probably on my 3rd or 4th game) where I max out as many skills as possible, explore every single corner of the map, every dungeon, talk to every NPC etc.

And if I want to do that, so what? It's all a part of the TES be who you want to be ethos surely.
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ShOrty
 
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Post » Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:12 pm

The perk limit will ensure people cant become a god character with all abilities. I hope at least, but that seems to be the point. I don't really think it was that big of a problem in morrowind.


I agree with the bolded above, having only 50 out of 280+ perks doesn't really qualify you as a jack of all trades like you could be in MW and OB. Might be able to get your skills to 100, but I think the perk system will make a big difference.

As for the underlined above in Morrowind in the later game you had so much money you could just go to a master trainer and train a skill up to 100 in one sitting with a quick rest inbetween if you had to level up from training a major/minor. If it was a misc. skill you could take it from 5 to 100 as long as you had the money, which late game you did.
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Paula Rose
 
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Post » Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:11 am

I like getting all your skills really good why wouldn't you want to? I don't think it's really good if you can't get all the perks that's not fair what if I want to get them all?
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Campbell
 
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Post » Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:25 am

I definitly think that you should be able to be better then everyone else in the game at everything if you wanted to, and being specialised in something in real life doesnt make it impossible to specialise in something else or many things. though if you are not a genius it might take awhile. :hubbahubba:

′The realistic thing would be if you get a bit rusty when you havent used some part of your "arsenal" for awhile. Remaining "Perfect" is the hard part. :toughninja:
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Samantha Pattison
 
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