The reason I'm bringing this up is because it makes me think of Umbra, and is it possible any of the Elder Scrolls lore, for something such as him to achieve "god"-ness.

yep, its possible to become several different flavors of gods in several different ways. the tribunal comes to mind immediately, and the http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml lists 5 more ways:



really depends on what you consider a god though. i'm not sure i'd call umbra or vuhon gods, though they are certainly very powerful mortals (demigods, ala Umaril perhaps?)

I wouldn't but he's better than ALMSIVI. He's got that persausiveness that is, very convincing. I mean Umbra has a very impressive resume when it comes to what he does.

what he does is kill dudes and soul trap them. then he manages to somehow tear a chunk of vile (perhaps literally? perhaps symbolically by assuming part of his sphere? we don't really know), which is his claim to godhood in the loosest sense. the tribunal, on the other hand, reverse engineer the laws of nature (the Tools have mythopoeic enchantments) to draw power directly from the heart of lorkhan, who was a very real god. i'd say they were more powerful than post-vile umbra until their bond to the heart weakened.

I thought those five are words for the same state of being.

I'd wait to see what Umbra's doing. If it's a constellation of unstars or Mnemoli kin, using Vuhon and Umbriel to get inside Nirn (teehee), who knows what mighty pwrz! it has? Another Dragon Break for the devs to play with Tamriel? Anywho...

Five ways to get to the same place, yea. Or so it says, though I would disagree. They may be attempts at the same goal, but they leave you with different sorts of divinity and different levels of understanding the world. What Talos did though the Enantiomorph is not equivalent to what Vivec did through CHIM or what the Dwemer did through Numidium. They all became gods, but their godhood is very, very different.

Otherwise, yea, we have to wait for the second book to see how Umbra develops. There is the potential for all sorts of cool things. I'm actually pretty surprised that no one has brought up the Ingenium as a Dreamsleave imitation/substitute.

Someone did in the TES book thread in the general TES section.

Isn't the only way through either CHIM or through a variation of the Enantiomorph? Mortals are just beings with 'smaller' souls than gods. The only way to become a god is to get a 'bigger' soul.

Wasn't it Vile that made Umbra? If it wasn't then who? And when?

I did try to look it up in IL but it's under recon.

Vile did not make Umbra, here's the information about the sword:

From then on, it's likely Vile took it, because he gets excited for souls, made deals with it, blah blah blah, and it backfired on his butt.

That kind of doesn't fully explain where he gets his personality, in Oblivion it's explain the he controls his weilder. Are the other weapons, like Chrysamere,like this?

Anyone see a clash between Chrysamere and Umbra ever happening?

Oh lord, I REALLY hope not. Chrysamere vs. Umbra would be so cheesy, Cheez-Its would have to stop using their slogan.

As to how it controls their wielders, it's more like the wielders have their soul slowly svcked in. Notice how each user of it that we have seen (the orc and bosmer) become less and less of their former selves, and end up seemingly to appear as if Umbra is taking them over.

How would that be cheesy? Just cause it's the same ol good vs evil? Haha.
I think that should be further explained though, how the weapons seem to have "personalities".

Well, there are a hell of a lot of artifacts that do have a mind of their own, and will leave their masters if they become discontent.

And yes, it is cheesy because it is the same ol goody goody good vs. kick the puppy evil

would vampirism possibly be able 2 contibute 2 god-hood? only bringing it up cuz vuhon had vampire like eyes (i could be mistaken)

I don't see how.

Vuhon's eyes were like Umbra's, that is totally black, because he and Umbra are now one person (iirc). He needs a new name, I suggest "Vuhumba"

thought the book said they were a pale-ish white color?

Got the book handy, I'll take a look. Both of you are right, here's what the book says about Vuhon's eyes:


Also, Lady Nerevar, it doesn't look like Vuhon and Umbra are the same. As what the book reveals, Umbra is currently powering the ingenium in Umbriel, while Vuhon is trying to find a way to no longer be a part of Vile's realm and to find the Umbra sword.

I've always thought of Umbra as a sort of "Ghostrider" parallel.

On the other hand, Vuhon says he is no longer Vuhon (though "you may still use that name, if you find it convenient."). He also displays something of a dual personality, irrationally freaking out when the sword is mentioned and then returning back to normal in the next sentence. The fact that he "powered it with Umbra" doesn't mean Umbra was completely destroyed (not something he would do if he wanted to get out of the realm), and given that Vuhon seems to have complete control over Umbriel (powered by the Ingenium), I'd say its possible that the two combined and are feeding/controlling Umbriel as one.


d'oh about the eyes. Although their color, whether black or milky white, only supports the theory that Vuhon is somehow changed.

I always thought that some ofthe soul's used to power the ingenium had taken residence in his body. But i must disagree with the umbra theory. sorry, but t me it doesn't make much sense.

Wait, so if Umbra is outside of the sword, what type of being is he? :confused:

The souls are either used for power (destroyed completely? stripped of power and sent back through the dreamsleave?) or are re-incarnated as people in Umbriel. I don't see how they can then take over the creator of their prison.

they weren't used for power, they were sent to Vile's realm in return for a gate sending the energy from the ministry of truth to Vile's realm. Since their warden basicly ended up stuck in the same place they were and managed to break out, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them tagged along without his consent. This is just an almost baseless theory my mind proposed to explain his reactions.

Yes, I suppose its theoretically possible, but I don't think there is anything in the actual text to say it is so.