Keep in mind that any penalties for gun spread won't have any affect below the weapon's setting for minimum spread. Many weapons already have their base spread and their minimum spread set to the same value so you'd pretty much have to edit each weapon in the game, reducing their minimum value to 0. That will conflict with mods like WMK or anything else that makes any changes to the game's weapons.

From the GECK Wiki:

@Belanos: Oh I am well aware of that. I looked at the same exact thing when I was considering putting in gun spread penalties. I went ahead with it anyway. I believe the penalties should have some worth, especially to characters with high weapon skills who like to tire themselves out. I have no plans to touch weapons, well not with this mod anyway.


@Red Eye: There is a reason I don't touch STR. It obviously modifies max carry weight, but that will also mess with a character's current weight/max weight calculations. Same thing goes with AGI, as that messes with current AP/max AP.

Here are the new additional penalties I am testing with at the moment:

Fatigue %
75-51 - No penalties. I wish for players not to worry about any penalties while their AP is more than half its max.
50-36% - -10% Attack damage and Crit chance
35-21%- -30% Attack Damage and Crit chance, +15% to gun spread.
Below 21% - -50% Attack Damage and Crit chance, +30% to gun spread.

Oh right, I was thinking in reverse. I originally looked at gun spread for a non-VATS perk so I was thinking in terms of improving it, rather than making it worse. You shouldn't have an issue with that. In fact, that's something I could consider for Fallout Fatigue. I have critical chance covered, but I never thought about gun spread.

Yea, I figured as much with the regards to AGI after a few moments of consideration, hadn't really thought about that aspect of messing with STR though so I can't fault your reasons, but I still can't deny that the INT doesn't really feel like it makes much sense (and unless I am missing something, I fail to see how it really penalizes the player in most instances they would have low APs, other than being an arbitrary negative to their stats).


I was thinking, would it be possible to effect Weapon Sway rather than Spread? It seems to me, personally, the Spread would be effected more by the condition of the weapon (and thus how I set my FWE settings), where as holding the weapon steady would be another matter all together when one is extremely exhausted. Anyways, was just a passing thought, carry on.

Again, I can't fault your logic in regards to no penalty until 50% or less AP, as it is a game after all so part of the balance has to be ensuring it doesn't become any kind of a hassle. Further, generally speaking, the penalties seem pretty good from what you have laid out there. Can't wait to take a stab at it myself.

Fatigue does affect the mind as well as the senses. That's why I used PER and INT. But while it does make more sense to use PER in the game, the INT penalty is pretty much is an arbitrary negative.

I did consider weapon sway too. I'm not too sure but I think I need to use FOSE to mess with that feature. And the GECK Wiki warned about issue from messing with that too, but I'll read up about that some more before I can make a decision.

Ahh, yes, wasn't too sure if Sway could be messed with or not, the thought just happened to cross my mind the other night. In regards to INT, it it is arbitrary then I don't see much reason to keep it in at all, but that's just me, as it feels more like bloat (even though not much) than anything else.

EDIT 1: I got a chance to do a clean uninstall and reinstall of the mod, by the way, and still had the same issues with the combat actions.

EDIT 2: Any ETA on the new version though, really eager to test around with it this weekend.

Next version hopefully up in a few hours. You got me considering taking out the INT penalty. Also am trying to read up more on weapon sway. If I do find out more about it, I may implement it on this version too. Stay tuned.

Awesome, really looking forward to it.

To be fair, on the flip side of the INT discussion, having an arbitrary penalty can still work as a penalty for players who are not aware it is arbitrary because they don't fully understand the mechanics of the game (which could at least be some, even these days, who would potentially download the mod). It can function as such based off of simply being a (-) displaying on their stats and being linked to a state that is again linked to their AP levels may help discourage people from letting AP stay low a lot.

Weights and balances, really, and I am sure either way it would be fine (since I can't imagine the bloat from the penalty could be all that great) - so I would say go with what feels the most logical and correct to you as the author, regardless of the mechanical effect.

Also, if Sway ends up needing FOSE to be reliable, then perhaps after you finish polishing off the current variant of the mod you could make a FOSE capable version that adds in any extra things it might be able to offer, but that would be less of a priority with a project like this since I feel you are getting quite the effect already without (and I imagine at least some don't use FOSE still).

Version 0.21 ALPHA is uploaded.

NOTE: Please uninstall APP version 0.20.01a or below and make a clean save before installing APP version 0.21a.

0.21 - Thanks to Belanos, the combat system has been improved, making AP drains even more precise. See Combat Actions in the Readme for updated AP costs.
Removed INT and PER penalties. They have been replaced with combat skill, attack damage, accuracy, and critical chance penalties. See Fatigue for details.
Removed the mild blur when current AP would reach 71%. As there were no penalties added at that point, it served no purpose other than being immersive. Now blur occurs only at 51% and below.

Wow, just wow, I can't wait to play around with this tomorrow. Sounds like a really good update, downloading now.

By the by, the sound of the new penalties is awesome.

So, some comments after doing some initial testing here (haven't gotten a chance to run a full gambit of testing yet, but wanted to drop my initial thoughts/comments).

To be honest, this latest version certainly seems to be the best of the versions released so far. Got it added into my game and the update process was nice and smooth (full pull of old, then add in of new). This time around, all the combat functions were working great for my character, and the AP drains were coming as they were expected. Was also very refreshing to experience the different levels of AP loss based on the type of weapon used.

The new penalties are great in general concept, and pretty well in implementation as well. I think in some regards the combat skill penalties might be a little bit high, but even if they are it wouldn't be by too terribly much.

As it stands, I am running out of any kind of suggestion for this project, I suppose unless I happen to find some glitch in later testings. At most I would say consolidate some of the text for the menu system, while the descriptions are flavorful, they will go mostly unnoticed by players since they will only look at it all once, and this will be just to see quick what it turns on or off (as such, simply naming the systems and then explaining what they do in mechanical context with no flavor would probably work better here). I would also adjust the item name to < APP Control Panel > since the item really has nothing to do with the Pip-Boy and is thus slightly misleading in nature (I personally manually edit the mod myself everytime to make this adjustment on my own copy).

Ummm, let me see here. The only thing I could think of beyond that right now would be a FOSE enabled edition of the mod that may allow for some more options in regards to effect the PC/NPCs regarding this mod. That does remind me, though, that if there were some way to have this effect NPCs (as was asked of Belanos before as well), that would be fantastic, but not really required for a project of this scope I don't think (just interesting really).

Really great mod, really coming along, and really adds some FO feel back into the game. Really appreciate all the work that you have tossed into this.

EDIT: Was just playing around with this for the past few hours in my game today, and it has been really great. The only things I think I have neglected to test at this point would be Bullet Time and Sprint in conjunction with the new system (as I simply just didn't come across a need for either in this play through). I must say that using this with my current LO and settings makes most battle situations pretty epic and intense, which is really fun. I'll be back with more on this in regards to Bullet Time and Sprint on the new system once I get a chance to use them.

@Red Eye: I'm glad you feel it's much better than the previous versions. I guess this means this build may be a likely candidate for BETA status, or maybe even FINAL.

The penalties for combat skill were put high to make sway effects more noticeable, as skill determines sway. Pretty much the idea I had is that only the most skilled will be able to have enough instinct to fire a weapon adequately while fatigued. So being good at it is the only way to offset a brunt of the penalties. It's also the reason why I lowered the damage/critical penalties, as lowered combat skills already affect damage output.

As for the menu text, I'm afraid I'm going to leave it as it is. I feel I'm doing it for the sake of immersion.

In regards to NPCs having fatigue effects, I'm afraid it may be difficult to implement. As far as I know, while there is a Fatigue component left over from Oblivion, I doubt there is any real way for NPCs to monitor fatigue levels.

As for the next version I was considering making a scaling HP damage effect for extreme fatigue. Damage that starts small when reaching below 21% of AP, then getting worse the more the player stays extremely fatigued. I may play around with the idea for a bit, then I'll decide if it's a good fit. But for now I'm going to play a bit of the original Fallouts. I need some inspiration for the next project I wish to work on.

Awesome, glad to hear, might get some more downloads in a beta/final state, even though it is perfectly stable.


That is what I expected when I started thinking on it more, but hadn't retracted my statement yet


Ahhh, no worries, like I said, I make manual adjustments myself to the name of the item, and the menus are really no big deal overall.


Kind of what I had expected here.


Sounds interesting, keep us posted.

There could be an issue with Sprint if you allow the character to go into negative values of APs, as I did with Fallout Fatigue. He uses AP levels as a switch to turn off the sprint action, but as a consequence the character can't even run anymore and is forced to walk only. There is a very simple fix for it in the Sprint script though, which I noted in the Fallout Fatigue readme. He has an optional method for turning off the sprint, APs or a timer. Removing the AP component still leaves the timer option intact without breaking the mod. This is only an issue with the standalone Sprint mod as apparently FWE has already removed the AP condition.

Well, that should save me a little testing then, since I am using it via FWE. I don't really expect issue with Bullet Time either, to be honest

EDIT: Sadly, I did not get a chance to play this weekend, nor did my fiance who decided to jump up to the new version too. Hopefully will get some time in after work for a couple hours over a few nights of the week though, and will pop back with any new findings (if there are any)

All seems to be fine with my testing so far today, but I was curious, where in the mod do you call for the heavy breathing sound, I wanted to peek at it and possibly replace it with the effect used from the Sprint mod itself integrated into FWE as I feel the effect sounds a bit nicer overall.

Look in the Fatigue FX section of the ZZAPPQuestSCPT script. It's the in the if BreathDoOnce block. I call PlaySound QSTDyingGaspMale, which is the vanilla gasping sound. Unfortunately it's not the best sounding gasp I've ever heard. And the way the FO3 engine is concerned, that sound object uses one of 4 random sound effects that it's tied to. And the odd part is the Female version of the sound object is broken, so it's just all male gasping sounds regardless of gender.

Really odd, that. Perhaps the effects used in the Sprint Mod (and in turn FWE) would be an option to use for this project as well? Could at least be worth looking into, since they also have a female variant as well. Thanks much for the info though, will probably tweak that tonight and see if I can get it as I like.

No bugs or issues to report? Wow, I guess this build is working much better than I expected.

I haven't touched the GECK for over a week so I still need to make a scaling HP damage effect for extreme fatigue (and test it out of course). I also want to implement AP drains from jumping so I have a lot of work to do. If all works well I would say the next version will be considered BETA.

Yea, I really haven't noticed any issues that I can immediately think of, even seems to blend fine with Bullet Time and Sprint with no issues noted (though I am still trying to tweak things just right in regards to drain rates to compensate for having AP actually being utilized by actions now).

Overall I have really been enjoying the effect of the mod in the game as well, though my fiance tends to grumble at times since she had a good 40 hours in before adding it to her game, so the adjustment phase has been a little rougher on her (and she has never played FO 1/2 either). The pacing of my game is really slow now with the combination of mods I run and the settings I choose for a number of them, which is absolutely fantastic for an epically long play for my second real full run of the game. Unfortunately I only have 9 hours in on my own game right now, as work had me constrained for a bit, but they decided they wanted to fire me today, so I plan on spending tomorrow playing me some FO most of the day to compensate (but then begins the job hunt grind, so play time will be constrained again...also, Morrowind has been beckoning me again recently).

@Red Eye: Wow, I'm sorry to hear about your job. I know the feeling myself.

In regards to the mod, I'm glad it's working out well for you. Oddly enough I still haven't fully adjusted to my mod. Just yesterday I was testing out a small feature for my next project and I forgot I had APP still loaded. I was just carelessly clicking away and running everywhere and forgot I can get exhausted.

Hi there,

I'm probably just doing something boneheaded, but for some reason, APP doesn't seem to be doing anything at all for me -- I'm not getting real-time AP drains, and there's no config token in my inventory. Do I have to enable the mod somewhere other than FOMM?

My LO:

Should be working for you looking at your LO - it doesn't initiate until you get to the B-day Party in the Vault, so that may be it. Also, could be if you did an Alt Start from FWE, not too sure.

I did an alt start. Could that be the problem?

It may very well be - Zenshin would have to provide more light in regards to that, but I am pretty sure the scripts are really only set to kick in at a certain point in the Vault sequence (the part where you take the GOAT, the initialize and the item is added at this point, when your Dad is examining you), so it may well be that the scripts aren't initializing. You could probably get it all up and running through the console, and I know you can add the menu to your inventory through the console with:

player.additem xx022299 1

The xx being replaced with the LO slot that you can get out of FOMM (the Mod Index).

Not sure what the scripts exactly are for the system to run right off hand, so again, Zenshin would need to toss those out for you.

I know one sure fire fix that will work for you, cause the mod is save game compliant for sure. Uncheck the APP mod and load up your save, it will spit warnings at you cause you removed a mod, just click yes, get in game, save, exit, recheck the mod, load your game. That will let you pull the mod out of the Load, so your game states it is not present, and when you readd it to the save it should kick in like a charm.