its not happening. It will segregate the playerbase even further and its is not a mainstream idea either. Sounds pretty radical to me.

Sorry you don't like mods, but they are great. You don't have to use them unless you are Raiding.

So your concern is basically that the devs are likely to inadvertently allow access to stuff that "matters" by creating potential back doors in the api used for gui mods?

TBH, I don't have enough experience to assuage your concerns. I was under the impression that the API kept all the important stuff boxed off, giving even more limited access than what is afforded to modders in WoW. I ASSUME that all of the most important calculations (player stats, damage, resists, hits, misses, exp, etc) are all handled server side.

As for things like access to the chat system, skill use, or controlling player movement, IDK what the api does or does not allow, but I'm under the impression that the later two are completely off limits.

Where do folks strongly in the anti-mod camp think a fair place to draw the line is?

It seems that scanning another player's build, skills, armor, resists, etc seems like a thing that many are uncomfortable with, and understandably so.

What about more simple things, like damage numbers over a target's head, buff/debuff trackers, or nameplates?

It's not happening-> You know this for a fact? So many people are omnipotent these days, gosh, I must've missed the memo.

It will segregate the playerbase-> That literally sounds like the worst argument I've ever heard. I don't want to play with mods becasue of my choice, I already segregated myself. Why shouldn't we have a choice as to who to play with, exactly?

How about this, since you're so against segregation- making kicking fro ma group impossible. You're segregating people who can only do 1 attack every 5 minutes because they're going to get kicked by some groups and not experience the content they paid for.

Mainstream-> Ha. Please count out the MMORPGs out there with a good collection of mods and then count out the total number of MMORPGs out there. You have no idea how many cheap F2P games I've played with no modding community to speak of where I would've died for a DPS meter.

Sorry you don't like mods-> Condescending as all hell.

But they're great-> Hi opinion

You don't have to use them unless you are raiding-> First off, you just showed how biased you are. "Unless you are raiding"? No, you don't and shouldn't have to use them -at all-. and the fact is that people who like to compare and make themselves look better prefer having a medium to show this. And those people exist at every level. I've been kicked from enough dungeons just because I actually use the /walk toggle in WoW and because I don't care about rotations but lore instead to know that this idea doesn't resonate with most groups.

I'm happy for you to be able to view all of that as long as the source of the buffs/de-buffs is your character. (You shouldn't get a running list of every de-buff, who cast it and how many seconds it has left as all this enables is stun locking of the target character)

I'm not in any camp as I want a toggle but I also heroic raid and would never want to go back to non-DBM days, but I think anything that shows information meant to not be presented mechanically like showing people who stealthed or moving the person for them is something that should be *strongly* looked into.

Also as a general rule I'm against mods being sold because that just puts an extra price tag on end-game.

No segregation plz.

.. I know.. I just wanted to stereotype.

The second quote is from someone at zenimax. Source: http://elderscrollsonline.info/addons

This does make me concerned.

Its called common sense. Experienced MMO players know that its not going to happen in a mainstream game like ESO (just like Full-Loot PvP, Permanent Death, or no Gear Progression).

There is no need for your derogatory tone.

If you have Mods you are not segregating yourself from other players, so i have no idea what you are talking about. For example lots of people have mods in WoW and play with others who might not have mods (and vice-versa). This argument makes no sense at all.

Erm, no, not condescending at all. Dont project your state of mind to me please.

Mods are great and as evidence you can check how many Mods are being downloaded daily from Curse.com. The evidence is there, clear as day. So no, its not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact.

Thanks.

That is really all that I am asking for them to do. I just don't want to be AMC trucked in PVP because of an addon or deny [paid for] content to some random number standard because of an addon. "You can play this content because you as a player just svck apples." Instead of teaching players how to do the content.

There are going to be plenty of people playing ESO. You'll be able to choose who you group with. I don't see any difficulty in having a conversation about the role of mods when you join a group, if you feel strongly about it one way or the other. Communication is always a good thing. You don't need a game mechanic to do that for you.

Or better yet, join a guild that shares your views on it, and group with your guildies. You'll have a better time grouping with friends who share your playstyle, whatever it is, anyway.

I really think the amount of hysteria about mods is overblown. Playing an MMO is about playing with others, some of whom are different from you. RP/non-RP, elitist/casual, pvp/pve, "mmo people"/"TES people"... there are all kinds of differences among players, but there's no reason they can't coexist. I see all these calls for segregation, but if the game was splintered into all the demographic groups that exist in the playerbase, it wouldn't be an MMO anymore.

Just like life... you have to learn to get along.

And yes, to the OP, mods will be optional If some groups want you to use them and you don't like them, group with like-minded people.

or they just want a level fair playing field based on skill not some addon to tell more info faster then a person does not have that info.

The text is scrolling across very fast, so your watching the screen or playing the game ? I wonder how much of that fast moving info was really helpful, at that speed ?

Devs support add-ons, because it means they don't have to design every conceivable interface design to make every conceivable user happy. The users can make themselves happy.

That's why game developers make the considered decision to allow mods, and it's a damn good reason. They know the score; the ESO devs have all developed for other games. If they thought there was any chance that UI mods would cause more problems than they solved, they would not allow them, and they have a lot more information about that than any of us.

As for your second point: what problems? The only problems are for people who can't figure out how to negotiate the social space to group with people who share their playstyle.

The whole point of modding is you can make a mod that displays the info any way you want. You pick a display that's helpful for you. People have vastly different preferences in this area.

Again, if I don't want to put effort towards how I play, do you think I'll care enough to put effort into making a group?

You're being biased by thinking that this is simply a preference rather than me just having a personality that doesn't give two [censored] about how I do and whose only interest is vested in the game, and not my character,

How many guilds in WoW have an advertisemant saying "we're lazy and we'll kick you if you care about your character or how much damage you do!"?

Guilds aren't always the answer to everything.

You called me out on projecting and in turn project your view of "common sense" as the holy grail of common sense and further stigmatize people who don't share your view of it as something "experienced MMO players" would believe as well.

If a person doesn't have mods they're segregating themselves from people who expect/want them to play optimally. I thought you didn't want segregation? Why shouldn't people who expect me to play optimally be forced to play with me when I don't want to play optimally? At least they still get to play- while I'd be kicked.

Something being done often is absolutely no evidence for it being a good thing. You must realize how many counter points I can provide for that, right?

Well...skill is very subjective. You can never really have a fair playing field in a game. ISP, physical capabilities (most people have *some* form of physical or mental imperfection)

Personally I want the toggle for the same reason the first time I played Skyrim and Fallout I consoled my combat abilities to ungodly levels. Sometimes I don't want to care about character progression or how I do, I just want to play. And sometimes in games I want to play with people who feel the same way.

^ THIS

And people here who are berating add-ons as cheating really need to get a grip.Don't make this about a problem that doesn't exist. Add-ons have *never* been cheating. The game simply provides a [censored] ton of information that most people don't pay attention to, and add-ons shift and change how available that information is. That's it.

Is access to the combat log obtainable through the standard UI?

Yes it is.

Here's another issue with being able to see buffs on enemy targets through use of add-ons:

Without add-ons, you cannot see if an enemy has activated the Defensive Posture ability. That shield-using healing templar might just have prepared to reflect a sorcerer's supernuke right back at him.

With add-ons to show an enemy's buffs, the entire advantage is easily negated by first shooting the templar with a staff attack and following that up with the supernuke.

It is now? Because it wasn't during the last 2 test weekends.

/close thread

Argument over, if all that the add-on is enabling you to do is have a shorthand version of the combat log displayed in an alternative visual format no one is at any advantage over someone else. The original posts in a few threads and the videos they linked to made it out as though the enemy got a heads up on your stats (especially resistances) but after watching more and more videos to me this doesn't seem to be the case. I think its been a case of facts and fiction getting mixed up together creating hysteria that anyone using a combat add-on would get additional benefits in PvP when if the combat log is available in game for everyone this isn't the case.

There is no such thing as a combat log unless it was only just re-enabled for the "secret testing club." We were begging to get it back in some form on the beta forums, though.

From what I understand, there used to be a combat log. And it obviously didn't include all of the information that's now being shown through these mods.

Ah forums got to love them.

Its a case of if we have a combat log available for everyone to view using the standard UI let them have cake!!

If we don't they shouldn't have access to it either. No cake for anyone!