The following is a bit of a re-post from another thread, because I feel it belongs more in this forum. I've also added more thoughts to my original post. I would really like your opinions about the lore of Elder Scrolls, and how the franchise should move forward with developing it.

I'm beginning to get tired of the lore of this series, which I know will sound blasphemous to most of you, but sometimes it's ok to move away from tradition and try something more unique, you know? Half the time I feel like I'm an archaeologist, always reading about long lost civilisations and exploring defunct dungeons, we're always reading about how awesome things were in previous eras, but the era we're currently playing in isn't as grand, it's actually pretty dull in comparison. Everything amazing has already happened, interesting places have become ruins, interesting personalities like Berenziah are long-dead. Yeah I know, we had to deal with oblivion gates and now dragons, but the main quest is so so generic in these games, we all know that everyone prefers the other quest-lines like Dark Brotherhood, etc.

Saving the world is BORING, it always has been, always will be. Give me a more personal story any day of the week. Give me a story about betrayal, revenge, redemption, love, stuff like that. How many times have we saved the world since we started playing games? We've done it so many times it has no effect on us anymore, all we look forward to is the boss battle at the end, that's it. Instead of that, give me a story with twists and turns, and a satisfying ending that puts a smile on my face. Take a leaf out of some bestselling fantasy novels, like George RR Martin or Robin Hobb, rip them off even, I don't care! Just leave the fate of the world alone, because rushing to save a character who I've grown to care about is a thousand times more engrossing.

Anyway, back to my original point, the world of Elder Scrolls at the moment is beginning to feel a bit stale. I guess the fact that each Elder Scrolls game is set further in the future than the one before it is some kind of encouragement for me, but I just hope this means that we'll see more exciting things happening in the world and more in-game books about current events rather than what happened before. What I like about the Final Fantasy series, or Terry Pratchett novels, for example, is that the worlds are really unique with a mixture of technology and lore, I really feel like I'm on an alien planet or alternate future, but with Elder Scrolls it always feels like I'm in an epic Tolkien fanfic.

Oh Tolkien, what a double-edged sword you are. What I hated about Dragon Age Origins is that it did absolutely NOTHING original, it relied completely and utterly on Tolkien (even the talking trees sounded like the ents in Peter Jackson's trilogy!), but at least Elder Scrolls has an extreme attention to detail going for it. But right now I'm feeling that, that is all it's got going for it now, and I yearn for more originality. I want them to take more risks. I want to take part in the kinds of stories that you read about in the in-game books, which are full of intrigue.

Hey, if Elder Scrolls is now going to homage cultures such as Norse mythology, how about the next game is set on that other continent and we go for a more Asian atmosphere or something. Asian architecture, ninja, and hey, you can now harvest tofu, and eat noodles!

If you think that TES is "an epic Tolkein fanfic" you're clearly not delving into the lore. Yes, the books are a lot deeper than the game, but that is due to gameplay restrictions. Skyrim had a lot going for it in dialog, quests, and the world itself.

Going to generic-asian-mashup-land (i.e. Ninja's and noodles) wouldn't be advancing lore, it'd be randomly tacking things on.

Would you say that without Tolkein there would not be Elder Scrolls? I think we both know the answer. This franchise's attempts to stretch beyond the author's influence are minimal at best, we get a few extra races, a different creation story, but for all intents and purposes we are playing in Tolkein's playground.

I am not saying that is a bad thing at all, we're all here because we love the fantasy genre, but I am saying that if Bethesda was more creative and took more risks in future games, it would be appreciated. Otherwise we'll be getting the same experience over and over, which for some is not a bad thing, because 'if it aint broke, dont fix it', but on the other hand....it gets boring.

The Asian thing was a joke by the way... and as for 'delving in the lore', I read every single book I come across. In fact they're the reason I even made this thread, I enjoy reading the damn books more than the gameplay!

Do you know... what CHIM is?

I didn't realize that Tolkien had a race of men who can pull their very souls into swords that can in turn split atoms. :shrug: Certainly not original at all.

I can agree with the saving the world bit, I hate it and I've done it maybe once per game and then never touched it again. I hate the doom and gloom crap, but to say the Elder Scrolls is just an extension of Tolkien means you obviously havn't delved deep into the lore. The two are very distinct piece, saying one is but minimal extension of the other is ignorant baseless. Fantasy has been around much longer than Tolkien, he himself took mythology of our world and molded it into something he could call his own. TES does the same thing. Tolkien did great things for modern fantasy, but if hadn't someone else would have.

Haha, I just knew referencing Tolkein would get everyone in a huff, but what about everything else I mentioned in my post? I mean, Lady Nerevar said making the next game 'Asia themed' would feel tacked on, but can't you say the same thing for Skyrim and its Norse theme? Is Skyrim hinting that every Elder Scrolls game from now on is going to allude to an Earth culture?

Elder Scrolls 6: Hammerfell = explore some quasi North African land with an incredibly interesting past as revealed through 300 hundred books, but currently a generic present where you have to save the world from a genie in a bottle.

Let me reiterate, I have no problem with the lore of this franchise, what I have a problem is that we're always living in the aftermath of it, I don't just want to read about it, I want to live in it. Populate cities with more NPCs, more guilds, more current events that are changing the face of the era, things that don't even have anything to do with you. Maybe at some random point during the game an earthquake occurs and the world and NPCs react to it, books about the earthquake start appearing, etc, etc. Make the games more dynamic and less static.

Elder Scrolls is not perfect, and nor will it ever be, but it can be stale and that's not something anyone wants, so this thread is just my vocal reminder that Bethesda doesnt always have to play it safe, they should experiment in the future.

The suits would probably disagree. Why experiment when you can just produce another generic fantasy world and rake in the dough?

TES IV = generic Medieval fantasy land + demonic invasion
TES V = generic Norse fantasy land + dragon invasion
TES VI = generic Elven fantasy land + golem invasion?

And I agreed with you, it is indeed a stale formula of save the world. Its the fact everyone attributes everything fantasy to Tolkien and just Tolkien is preposterous. His influence is undoubted, but instead of looking at things and seeing its real world influences people say 'oh its tolkien'. The man is great, but fantasy would live on without him. The Nord's are not simply a Norse carbon copy, its literally impossible to do anything without some reference/influence to earth, its all we know and what all fantasy authors eventually have to draw inspiration from. Tolkien was no different.

That said, I'm not in a 'huff' about Tolkien referencing, its just annoying to see everyone attributing all fantasy after him to being based on his work or an extension.

Skyrim and its themes have been around in their current form since Redguard ('98). Skyrim is also far from exclusively Nordic, or designed to be a "fantasy Scandinavia" or something. On the other hand, there's never been a pure "Asian" culture in TES - the Redguards have Samurai-like themes, the isolation of the Summursets alludes to the seclusion of Japan during the Edo period (iirc), the Tsaesci who invaded Tamriel have architecture reminiscent of Imperial China, the Nords have a mythology similar to Hinduism, the Dunmer's reverence for their ancestors can be likened to that of the Confucians, etc. But there's no culture that is a mash up solely of oriental traits.

Skyrim actually did a good job, imo, portraying the lore. They touched upon everything that we knew that related to Skyrim, and elaborated on many things. It gave us political, social, and metaphysical conflicts and insights. What you seem to be talking about is a desire for a change in the scale of conflicts, moving away from the apocalyptic and towards the personal. I can't say I disagree with that, but I don't think that it has anything to do with the nature or depiction of lore. Personally, I like global conflicts (though perhaps not on the "if you don't do something the entire world will end"), but I also like balancing them against more intimate narratives. I doubt that TES will move away from the doomsday scenarios, so I think they should focus on adding more stuff alongside them.

With rare exceptions, people don't tend to be seen as great until after they're dead, or past their prime. True "living legends" are rare for a reason. But personally, as someone who likes to wade in the lore, it was great meeting the Greybeards, . Saying that there's no interesting people around to interact with is just false. But I guess The Grass Is Always Greener, and all that. You'd be more correct to say there's more people who were interesting in the past, but that's just how it works. There's much more stuff in the past than there is in the present, so it's kinda stacked against you.

And let's face it... TES is an exploration/dungeon diving RPG at heart. Up-kept dungeons don't make for good spooky exploration, and detailed histories of past civilizations don't leave much for mystery (which is the heart of good fantasy, IMO).

Did the OP play Morrowind? Some of the freshest, most creative, otherworldly fantasy fic to ever grace a game.

Things became a lot more accessible and generic with the mass-market Oblivion.

I'm aware of this which is why I threw Asia out as a jokey suggestion, it would at least be more interesting aesthetically than typical medieval fare. Bioware's Jade Empire for example looked pretty unique when compared to other RPGs.



Well I guess I mean that we create a new lore through our actions in the game, beyond the main quest, and we also see other characters becoming heroes and villains around us. Actually. talking about this reminds me of another thing that annoys me a little about the last two Elder Scrolls games (unfortunately I haven't played the others, though I know everyone loves Morrowind), and it's that despite Bethesda saying you can be anyone you want to be, you're always forced to be the generic world-saving hero. But if I start the game as a kitten killing Nord who burns villages for fun, then how does it make sense for me to follow the main quest and be a hero? That's a massive break from immersion right there. I know I don't have to follow the main quest, but that would be like ignoring the elephant in the room, it's just there waiting for you to notice it.

Perhaps we need more diverging lines in the main quest, though I guess that's an old argument at this point, that Elder Scrolls merely gives you the allusion of choice, but really at the end of the day nothing you do changes anything in the long run.

What they could do is give you different ways to end the game, and then have you carry your save over to the next Elder Scrolls game, and however you impacted the world in the previous game effects the world of the new game. Which I know sounds like an impossible amount of work, but it's nice to think about it. Dragon Age II kind of did this to a lesser extent.

Morrowind was just as bad at making you a world-saving hero. Could you join Dagoth Ur or steal the power of the Heart for yourself? No, all you could do is break the enchantments on the Heart to defeat the Big Bad and save the world. Daggerfall was the only game in the main series that let you have "good" and "evil" outcomes by choosing who to give the Mantella to, but that's also the source of many headache-inducing issues in the lore (not to mention, it wasn't a world-threatening event when the story was written; the Numidium was simply some kind of powerful golem the local powers wanted, it wasn't a giant stompy robot that could kick Akatosh in the crotch until lore defined it as such later on).

The Bloodmoon expansion is probably the only exception since you could side with Hircine and play the MQ as an "evil" werewolf against the "good" Skaal, but Hircine's incursion and your actions had no noticeable effect on the lore either way. Honestly, I'd rather like more main quests like that... an event that the character would want to do because it's intriguing (and having multiple-but-similar ways through it to encourage different types of characters to play it), not because of some contrived 'but the world is in danger!' threat.

Like in Skyrim... the Dragonborn, Blades, Dragons, and Greybeards on their own would've made for an awesome MQ if done properly (ie, expanding on the lore surrounding them, providing interesting quests with poignant choices for the player to make, etc). There was no reason to throw in Alduin with the "we're all gonna die!" scenario, particularly if they couldn't portray him as the World-Eater he's supposed to be.