AER14 vs La Longue Carabine : Fallout: New Vegas

» Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:14 am

AER14. La Longue carbine requires either meta-gaming or murdering somebody who doesn't really deserve to be murdered. The first is stupid and the second is against my character's moral code.

The AER 14 does not require meta-gaming. I found it my first go through because I search every where. I'm a bit OC about it. I have to completely search a place. If you consider that meta-gaming oh well. I average 200 hours a character - first character will average 300. Some of my later don't take as much time because there are places I have no desire to see again or it doesn't fit the character to go there.

I do agree with you about the La Longue. Even if my character was a legion goon I'd leave that guy alone. He has proven himself and earned the right to live - well I wouldn't murder him for the gun. Kill him in battle, so be it.

OT- I prefer the AER 14 with normal ammo. I'll keep a few max charge for really tough things like Deathclaws. Fixing it is no problem as In everygame I find/buy the makings for 120+ weapon repair kits. Other guns out there with better stats than the La Longue to warrant getting it.

» Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:43 am

The AER 14 does not require meta-gaming.

I was referring to the LLC. The only way to get it without murdering the guy is to do the whole "pickpocket his ammo" stunt which makes no sense at all either logically or within the ruleset of the game. This is metagaming. I don't consider the LLC a "valid" weapon choice unless you're a Pro Legion fanatic that wipes out the entire NCR garrison just for the hell of it. Which I never have been.

AER-14 is a fairly solid improvement over the laser rifle. In terms of durability it has fewer item-hp, but it also does quite a lot more damage so you'll end up shooting it less. The only places it is a serious downgrade from the standard laser is first the cost of repairing it you're using merchants, and secondly a slightly lower ammo efficiency (damage-per-cell). This is the version 1.03 AER-14; before this version it wasn't really worth it.

» Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:00 am

Fixing it is no problem as In everygame I find/buy the makings for 120+ weapon repair kits.

Dare I ask, what is the best source for duct tapes?
Usually they are the bottleneck, I have problems aquiring -by either buying or finding- more than like 50 or 60 in the game.
The only merchant I know who sells them frequently are the Gun Runners

» Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:59 pm

La Longue Carabine, I don't know why, but I just despise Energy Weapons. A conventional Ammo weapon is more my taste, laser weapons are just to....I dunno. They are just not my taste.

» Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:14 am

Dare I ask, what is the best source for duct tapes?
Usually they are the bottleneck, I have problems aquiring -by either buying or finding- more than like 50 or 60 in the game.
The only merchant I know who sells them frequently are the Gun Runners

For me it's those and Scrap Electronics. Best renewable source for both are Viper Tire Iron Slingers.

» Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:59 am

I was referring to the LLC. The only way to get it without murdering the guy is to do the whole "pickpocket his ammo" stunt which makes no sense at all either logically or within the ruleset of the game. This is metagaming. I don't consider the LLC a "valid" weapon choice unless you're a Pro Legion fanatic that wipes out the entire NCR garrison just for the hell of it. Which I never have been.

AER-14 is a fairly solid improvement over the laser rifle. In terms of durability it has fewer item-hp, but it also does quite a lot more damage so you'll end up shooting it less. The only places it is a serious downgrade from the standard laser is first the cost of repairing it you're using merchants, and secondly a slightly lower ammo efficiency (damage-per-cell). This is the version 1.03 AER-14; before this version it wasn't really worth it.

I understand now. Thanks for clearing that up. I also do not like the reverse pickpocket ammo thing.

As to duct tape, I have no problems finding it on traders or gang members. Some of those guys carry two of them. I've also been lucky finding lots of them in tool boxes. Scrap electronics can be a problem until I reach mid game. I grab the stuff whenever I find it and either fast travel home (Novac) or to the nearest Mojave Express Box to dump it. When I get around to making them I have enough for 25 or so.

» Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:46 am

Since the Brush Gun is as accurate as a Laser Rifle,

It isn't. The Brush Gun is the most accurate of the lever-actions and it's still 0.03 compared to the Laser Rifle's 0.025 and the AER14's 0.0225.

In my recent tuning experiments, I did the following:

* Lowered the LA rifles' RoF
* Raised their AP cost
* Moved their spread into the tenths instead of the hundredths.

The result were weapons that had the spread of pistols but worse RoF, AP, and (usually) reload time. Downgrading that many aspects of the weapons concurrently makes them undesirable, even with the relatively high DAM. Lowering the RoF, raising the AP cost, and keeping the spread in the hundredths (though still worse than the laser/bolt-action rifles) makes them feel valuable without being overly powerful. I've seen people argue that spread differences in the hundredths are negligible, but it's really not true. At moderate to long combat ranges that are typical in the game, the difference between a 0.02 and a 0.08 spread has a significant effect on VATS percentages as well as a player's ability to take manual shots against small targets (especially head shots).

I also think some of the other issues of comparative power can be solved by raising up a weapon that is outclassed generally (e.g. the Service Rifle, Assault Carbine) than by bringing down the other weapons around them.

» Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:51 pm

It isn't. The Brush Gun is the most accurate of the lever-actions and it's still 0.03 compared to the Laser Rifle's 0.025 and the AER14's 0.0225.

In my recent tuning experiments, I did the following:

* Lowered the LA rifles' RoF
* Raised their AP cost
* Moved their spread into the tenths instead of the hundredths.

The result were weapons that had the spread of pistols but worse RoF, AP, and (usually) reload time. Downgrading that many aspects of the weapons concurrently makes them undesirable, even with the relatively high DAM. Lowering the RoF, raising the AP cost, and keeping the spread in the hundredths (though still worse than the laser/bolt-action rifles) makes them feel valuable without being overly powerful. I've seen people argue that spread differences in the hundredths are negligible, but it's really not true. At moderate to long combat ranges that are typical in the game, the difference between a 0.02 and a 0.08 spread has a significant effect on VATS percentages as well as a player's ability to take manual shots against small targets (especially head shots).

I also think some of the other issues of comparative power can be solved by raising up a weapon that is outclassed generally (e.g. the Service Rifle, Assault Carbine) than by bringing down the other weapons around them.

Did you do your test "at once" or "one by one" and/or combination?

As for spread differences in the hundredths are felt.....maybe truth between 0.02 and 0.08 since the later is 4 times of the fromer; however I do play a couple of character with Fast Shot and they don't seems to be all that different.

» Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:27 pm

(Wow, J.E. Sawyer, Cool! :thumbsup: )

* walks up, examines both the AER-14, and La Longue Carabine, examines the two carefully, and then tosses the Carabine aside, and walks off with the Laser rifle, muttering how the Scribes will love to examine this....*

» Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:48 am

I'll typically make all changes to one weapon/set of weapons at once and then play them comparatively to see how they hold up to each other and to other weapons in the fold. If they feel like they are too good/too bad, I'll pull back whatever change to the weapon seems least contentious/least defining. In the case of LA weapons, the general consensus (with which I agree) is that the LAs fire too quickly and have AP costs that are too low. While I do think LAs should cycle faster than bolt-action rifles (especially when the LAs have relatively small cartridges), they're not defined as being ultra-fast and they don't need to be. However, if they fire more slowly, they should keep a relatively high DAM and stay relatively accurate. They're still rifles, and they're all firing pretty beefy rounds (.357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, and .45-70 Gov't).

If you make the LA weapons do marginally more DAM than comparable handguns, but fire significantly slower, cost significantly more AP, have similar accuracy, and dramatically worse reload times, they become very unattractive options. Keeping the DAM and accuracy high but modifying the RoF/AP cost makes them feel useful and valuable without being "no duh" options -- with or without Cowboy.

» Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:47 pm

If you make the LA weapons do marginally more DAM than comparable handguns, but fire significantly slower, cost significantly more AP, have similar accuracy, and dramatically worse reload times, they become very unattractive options. Keeping the DAM and accuracy high but modifying the RoF/AP cost makes them feel useful and valuable without being "no duh" options -- with or without Cowboy.

Me (and I am sure the others) ain't trying to phase out LA rifles.

What we ask is that LA shouldn't be that much better than bolt-action or semi-auto. Idealy, bolt-action and Lever-action's RoF and accuracy should be governed by Agility, Perception and Gun skill. Since that isn't what we have at the moment, weapon stat, traits and perks would be all that's left. We don't really mind LA fire quicker compare to bolt-action (for the sake of diversity) as long as accuracy is compromise.

Brush Gun with 0.3 spread is still better than Hunting Revolver, although 0.2~0.25 wouldn't be far off either.

I yet to see someone actually complain LA consume too little AP; in fact, I would prefer some weapon works better in VATS and some in RT, balancing the two combat system from different angle (VATS is almost useless atm, while some thing breaking tension of combat is cheat, one of the biggest advancement in action/shooting game was bullet-time, which become VATS in FO3).

» Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:58 am

LA's consume very little AP.

Cowboy Repeater: 20
Trail Carbine: 21
Brush Gun: 23

Compare to:

Sniper Rifle: 38
Hunting Rifle: 60
Service Rifle: 22
This Machine: 22

Of the "rifle-y" weapons, only the Assault Carbine has an equal AP cost at 20. Comparing the DAM:AP ratio for rifles, the Cowboy Repeater, Trail Carbine, and Brush Gun take three of the top four positions, with This Machine coming in just behind the Brush Gun. In VATS, the shortcomings of the looping reload are mitigated even more than in real time since a) the cost is the same as for any other weapon and b ) the player is animating so much faster than other characters that it's not that risky.

I'm surprised to hear anyone say that VATS is useless. It's less accurate than manually aiming with a mouse if you're a good shot, but the extreme time dilation and damage mitigation are hugely advantageous to the player.

» Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:35 am

Of the "rifle-y" weapons, only the Assault Carbine has an equal AP cost at 20. Comparing the DAM:AP ratio for rifles, the Cowboy Repeater, Trail Carbine, and Brush Gun take three of the top four positions, with This Machine coming in just behind the Brush Gun. In VATS, the shortcomings of the looping reload are mitigated even more than in real time since a) the cost is the same as for any other weapon and b ) the player is animating so much faster than other characters that it's not that risky.

Again, I am aware LA consume very little AP and do well in VATS, I am not against it; but LA rifles is flat out better than other rifles in real time as well.

I'm surprised to hear anyone say that VATS is useless. It's less accurate than manually aiming with a mouse if you're a good shot, but the extreme time dilation and damage mitigation are hugely advantageous to the player.

Because sometime action is not queued correctly, leave the courier stuck get hit while doing nothing. It was abused in FO3 thank for god armour, in NV I figure some way to avoid getting hit (cover is a big one) and it makes massive difference.

Not to mention the high possibility of hitting your companion when using Melee/Unarmed attacks.

» Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:12 am

Everybody got the LLC Repeater by killing Sterling or doing the pickpocket trick. I just punched him in the gut, shot is out of his hands using Lucky, and holstered it. He forgave me.

» Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:41 am

For a scoped weapon, even .16 is too much spread for long-range precision. Also, I don't like weapons that can only be obtained through stealing or violence (against characters I don't want to hurt, anyway), so the AER14 has an advantage there as well.

» Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:58 am

Edit: Deleted. Just another pointless argument with internet jocks.

» Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:56 am

If all the LA weapons are supposed to be attractive options, then why is the La Longue Carabine have such bad spread for something with a scope? The spread on the Carabine is more closely related to the M1 Garand "This Machine" than the Lever Actions.

I mean look at 'Lucky'; little spread for a pistol, good damage and a 2.5 crit multipler! It's rifle counterpart in the same tier has only 0.1 better spread.

» Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:09 am

Again, I am aware LA consume very little AP and do well in VATS, I am not against it; but LA rifles is flat out better than other rifles in real time as well.

In real time, I'd prefer This Machine over any LA.

Because sometime action is not queued correctly, leave the courier stuck get hit while doing nothing.

Or the good old, "Queue up the enemy, enemy takes a step to the side, fire your magazine into the wall" thing, lol

Not to mention the high possibility of hitting your companion when using Melee/Unarmed attacks.

Or have your companion running into your line of fire

Still, I like VATS a lot. It prevents the game from feeling too shooter-like, and allows for a slower paced game experience. I also think, they did a good job in balancing it right. Actually, I died more often when it VATS, than outside of it.
In addition, the cinematic cam views are pretty cool to watch.

» Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:49 am

In real time, I'd prefer This Machine over any LA.

Or the good old, "Queue up the enemy, enemy takes a step to the side, fire your magazine into the wall" thing, lol

Or have your companion running into your line of fire

Still, I like VATS a lot. It prevents the game from feeling too shooter-like, and allows for a slower paced game experience. I also think, they did a good job in balancing it right. Actually, I died more often when it VATS, than outside of it.
In addition, the cinematic cam views are pretty cool to watch.

Sure, whatever flows your boat, I have been using Riot Shotgun for a while and used Lucky for most of the game. And frankly This Machine is almost balance against lever-action except for the ridiculous high spread in comparison (and unrealistic).

And yesh, since VATS is main cause of death, I only use it for cinematic effect.

» Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:33 am

I modified the Carabine with a 0.02 spread to test it out. It's spread is as good at the Gobi if you are using JHP rounds, and it's performance is just behind the Trail Carbine after accounting for crit multipliers.

Seems to me like if it had a 0.02 spread it would be considered one of the top all around guns in the game. Would be interesting to find out if the 0.2 spread was intented or not.

» Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:11 am

I personally dont like either of them and certainly wouldn't kill the old vet for his under powered ancient rifle...
They both pale in comparison to much more powerful guns which are easier to aquire, service, and provide ammo for. And i hate EW... bar the YCS
I also feel that the amount of LA guns should have been reduced and phased out, you really think they'd be so widely used around and way after 2277? seriously...
I think someone in bethesda/obsidian is a massive cowboy fan since the game has so much old western content.
We're talking Woody and Buzz lightyear here people its an 18 rated toy story! not cool.

Even the hard hitting AMR (which in the game is an old version anyway) would have been heavily replaced by now.
It amuses me greatly how games and films alike, keep such old fashioned itmes and equipment in their content, despite the year trye game or film boasts

» Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:59 pm

I recently made an EW character just to see how it stood up to my guns and unarmed characters. And i got to say, withe changes that came with the recent patch, i am finding EW to be just as viable as guns, perhaps more so. I specifically designed my character to have a reasonably high crit chance as well, and since most EW have a x1.5 or x2 crit mulitplier, i am making criticaly hits quite requently. The max charge ammo also gives EW a nice edge, combining a large damage boost with good armor penetration.

With this in mind, i would take the AER14. Similar damage, but higher crit chance and more -DT. The lack of a scope isnt too much a big deal, as the "iron sight" zoom is pretty good. The only real drawback is that it degrades somewhat quickly. This shouldnt be much of a problem though, as laser rifles are fairly common (fiends drop them all the time), and if you have dead money, it is easy to get a large supply of weapon repair kits.

» Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:11 pm

If you have dead money, you should be using Holorifle.

» Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:40 am

AER14, Laser Rifles aren't hard to find, you just take a swing through Fiend territory every time you need one for repairs.

» Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:40 am

Here's some Data to get some infoAER1458.8 Dmg per Shot (after perks, using Max Charge ammo)-10 DT (Max Charge Ammo)2.5 Cond per shot (Does using x2 MF Cells per shot increase weapon wear compared to a x1 MF Cell gun?)12 shots per Clip2.0x Crit Multiplier68%+ Crit (using 5LK plus perks and 1st Recon Beret)0.0335 Min Spread0.0 Spread45% Base VATS Chance20 AP per shot in VATSLa Longue Carabine53.55 Dmg per Shot (after perks, using .357 JFP Rounds) -3 DT (JFP Rounds)1.0 Cond per shot11 Shots per clip1.5 Crit Multiplier30%+ Crit (using 5LK plus perks and 1st recon Beret)0.160 Min Spread (JFP Rounds)0.016 Spread (JFP Rounds)30% Base VATS Chance18 AP Per Shot in VATSSo you can see the guns are pretty close in most areas except in an important few. Firstly, the AER14 has a effective perfect shot accuracy at any range vs the Carabine. Secondly the AER14 has a -10DT compared to the Carabines' -3. Thirdly,the AER14 will crit over twice as much in combat than the Carabine.However, these advantages come at the cost of durability. With the AER14 having 100HP and x2.5 condition per shot of Max Charge rounds(consuming 2 rounds in the process), the AER14 is going to be in need of repairs more often than the x1.0 condition per shot of the Carabine.But if you had to sit down and make a choice of which gun to use for the majority of the game, which one would you go for, and why?

Well, for one, this seems almost like a biased post, favoring the AER14. From what you have here (and considering I did not use either gun during Game Play) I would think the AER14 is a better choice. I personally like energy weapons, though the condition may diminish quicker. I also had a perk that allowed me to turn most anything into energy cells, so I guess it would only make sense to forfeit the Carbine