I've been curious for some time.

Myself, I'm generally a 'mostly aesthetics' person. I do eventually draw a line when things go overboard, but being happily shallow and relatively easily impressionable, I tend to lean towards the sense-pleasing and eye-candy as long as it does not fly in the face of my gaming experience. In Bloodrayne the heroine fights in the most suicidal stilettos I've ever seen, in Bayonetta there is not a single thing that's not over-the-top, and in Dragon Age 2 epic flair and flashiness accompanies every animation. Do I mind? Rarely - it suits these games. Sensible or not, I believe games to be a form of escapism, where such things can be forgiven and, more often than not, desirable.

In case of TES, however, I'm a bit closer to the middle of the road, as the games are lacking in both respects (I'm speaking of Oblivion and Morrowind here, I don't know the rest). I wish it was possible to easily create an attractive character without ever having to resort to mods; I wish magic was both visually appealing and a force to be reckoned with; I wish animations were more varied, more natural, prettier, livelier and preferably gender-and-race-distinctive (women don't move like men and Argonians or Khajits don't move like humans - for some reason Morrowind had it right and Oblivion didn't). I wish there was more variation and customisation potential among armours, clothes and weapons - I wish I had a choice between elaborate dresses like those from Shivering Isles and simpler, but not uglier ones; I wish to wear a robe with daedric pauldrons over a steel armour like I could in TES 3; and finally, I wish I could mix and match distinct makes of a class of armour - chainmails made by different craftsmen, sets of ebony from different ages, a flattering elven armour with a bulky, Oblivionish one... This could go on, but in short, I believe a reasonable equilibrum can be reached and aesthetics don't have to be mutually exclusive with realism - they can actually enhance each other. After the disappointment of Oblivion, Skyrim must improve both in equal measure.

There was a lot more I wanted to say, but having run out of inspiration, I shall leave it here. I'm more interested in what you would like to say.

Realism in a game where I play as a cat person fighting a bunch of people throwing magic fireballs at me? Yeah, realism sure fits into this game.

My answer: I think you will like the art direction, style, and customization Skyrim offers tot he player.

Should a cuirass technically be worn over a robe so that the pauldrons could attach?

This for me. There is a reason I don't play any of the modern-times military shooters available...they are getting to be so realistic looking that I have a morality crisis shooting people. Nah...keep it fantastical, for this guy anyway.

I like it when stuff looks really fantasy but you would still be able to actually use it in real life, to an extent. :thumbsup:

Ahm... to avoid confusion, I'd like to note the difference between game world and game design. The poll is about the latter.

Realism. Oblivion is a wonderfull game but I prefer Morrowind simply because of the more detail and content involved with gameplay.

Aesthetics, almost always. In other forms -- literature certainly -- fantasy requires a certain amount of quasi-realism to really sell the characters and story; it's the human trials and emotions that allow us to relate to characters and events, and that ability to relate that elevates a story beyond a simple visual/imagined pleasure.

In computer games, though, that's not really something I look for or require; most story-heavy, more-linear RPGs simply fail to be very good at telling a story or portraying characters, and the rest don't need to be. In CRPGs, give me aesthetics every time. But they have to be the right aesthetics. For example, you mentioned DA2, which I think is hideous despite an apparent focus on "flashy" and stylised graphics. Final Fantasy games often capture an aesthetic I'm very fond of - but so do very different game and art styles, like those of The Witcher and its sequel.

Skyrim appears to have got it right, thankfully.

Maybe, but it does look http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool

Mostly aesthetics but with caveats
It has to fit the style/atmosphere of the game and not be too over the top

Seems like you're asking for better quality, more diversity and options, which is basically a good thing. As long as it doesn't look ridiculous I'm all for it. I don't like the WoW style huge armors that look like they weigh 10 tons, neither do I like the 10 feet long swords from JRPGs or women fighting in stilettos. At least not in TES games. If the style of a game is cartoonish then it might fit and the game may still be fun. TES games have been more down-to-earth so far and I like that. While they are fantasy games with cat people and magic it all looks reasonable up to a point. Something that could exist in a different world without completely neglecting the laws of physics or without looking completely useless for its designated purpose (like stilettos as combat boots for example).

EDIT: I think Morrowind or SI are good examples for a nice, different design that doesn't look ridiculous. It's clearly fantasy, but it doesn't look like it couldn't exist in a different world.

no pauldrons have straps that go across the body

In order to work well, the game should put the player into a fantasy setting that is believable. I think Skyrim will do this for most of us. Extreme viewpoints, of course are may be an exception.

The OP was probably correct when stating that realism and asthetics do not have to be mutually exclusive.

There's a problem with that. Magic isn't real and Khajiit and Argonians aren't real. They HAVE to rely on thier minds as there is no realism to apply it to. You just have to completely guess what they look like, and if they want Khajiit to walk like men or elves, then they can because Khajiit are the invention of Bethesda, like how the cartoon characters that I like to draw in my notebooks and drawing pads when I have free time at college are my invention.

Also, keep in mind that even though you can segment the varying pieces of armor and allow players to min and match, it does blow up data usage (just a bit though, having to designate a sholder slot and a slot for both arms as well as the added numbers to go with the increased pieces of armor), and adding in multiple designs of armor made from the same material would REALLY blow up disc space usage, because of all the added art files and (potentially) new meshes. This game needs to use space for gameplay, it can't be set to let you have 9001 customizations while conserving enough disc space to put the actual game.

Remember that the chief limit is that they need to be able to fit everything (art, sound, the engine, and game data) into 4.7 GB, the size of a DVD.

Exactly. While Oblivion itself was of questionable quality in every respect, Shivering Isles was nearly a masterpiece in comparison.


Really? I don't believe this problem has ever come up in Morrowind, from which I'm drawing inspiration. I find it hard to conceive that as likely to ever be terribly significant.

Doesn't matter anyway. Let us focus on theorising - technicalities are beyond the discussion's concern.

Sorry, I'm missing an "other" option in your poll, since for me realism (in game design) isn't / doesn't have to be opposed to aesthetics. "Real" things can quite be very aesthetic - and vice versa, imo.

It depends entirely on the game, of course - the aesthetics chosen need to match the rest of the surroundings (like, for example, some of the more elaborate "JRPG"-style hair mods that exist for Oblivion.... don't quite seem to fit. Or brightly-primary-color superhero costumes).


So, given the premise that "aesthetics" doesn't necessarily mean "over the top, flamboyant, irrational).... yeah, aesthetics are important to me. Having things look nice is good.

The limit, however, comes at the point where making things either "pretty" or making them "real", impacts gameplay & function. Another thread today brought up the idea of having purchases at stores be animated - when you buy something, the shopkeeper goes over to where the item is, gets it, and gives it to you. This, to me, is a case of aesthetics (seeing the shopkeeper act) gets in the way of function (buying your stuff) - sure, it might be interesting to see the first few times.... but you do alot of buying and selling. It would rapidly get tiresome to have what should be a quick & repeated function get dragged out like that. Similarly, "realism" features can get in the way of function or gameplay.

"But I want it to be more REAL!" and "But I want it to be more PRETTY!" are not valid reasons for deliberately making a game function badly.

"Mostly Aesthetics". Would put "Aesthetics all along", but don't really understand the difference between those two. I definitely prefer beautiful things and handsome things and I couldn't care less about eating, drinking, taking bath or other realism things.

this is a bit confusing but i like aesthetics that look "real". morrowind had a very alien environment unlike any other game that i have played, but it seemed real at least as real as a video game can get. the amount of lore and attention to detail lent a credibility to it. oblivion was more real looking in that it didnt have giant mushrooms or enormous bugs that you could ride but aesthetically it was just boring. skyrim looks like its taken the best of both of them. its more gritty and realistic looking since its kind of taking cues from conan but it also is aesthetic as well........at least to me.

one thing i do not like in my video games unless its final fantasy or something akin to that, is over the top anime type crap. just drives me nuts.

First let me congratulate you for picking up such an interesting topic!
We're not lockstep marching when it comes to definitions and their usage but that's not really important now. I think this question has an interesting answer. Because it's been answered before.

War is serious business. You want your gear to be as efficient as possible, as non obstrusive as possible at the moment you're escaping or delivering death. Still, within this form-follows-function principle civilizations have managed to instill high levels of aesthetic sophistication into their war gear. Take ancient China and Japan.

You shouldn't overlook the strong psychological impact beautifully crafted gear has on your advesaries. The frightening power of an intricately embossed sword is greater than that of a plain one. That is a tactical adavntage not to be taken lightly.

So no necessary contradiction, no mutually exclusive options. Going back to your example, wearing those needle heel shoes sends a bold message about who's wearing them. She's here for the kill. Better watch out.

Aesthetics and realism can't be compared or contrasted. maybe the op means stylization and realism.

I like when form follows function. That was the key to much of the work on the LOTR movies as well, at least as far as armor and weapons went, with a couple exceptions. I think aethetics are very important, provided what has been created has a logic to it that makes sense and functions in a rational way. Be it armor or magic.

I like a magic system that makes sense, even if it is obvious fiction. Give it limitations, and why or why not certain things can or cannot be done.

I loathe most armor designs in fantasy video games. They are usually so impractical as to be non-functional if it existed in real life. I hate armor designs that leave the belly exposed, or are set up in a way that in reality it would seriously hamper movement. And I HATE how every fantasy game with the exception of TES gives women high heels. Really? Ask any woman you know how much fun it is to walk through a forest wearing high heels, or on sand, or jumping and running.

And I don't care for over-sized weapons that would take more strength than Jay Cutler posses to wield.

That's my two cents.

It's worth noting that realism does not mean something that is, to put it one way, realistic. It's definition in this context is more like plausible, things that could actually happen. It's a very blurry line. The game will feel gritty and realistic because objects look (or will try to look) like they could physically exist in the real world and the events of Skyrim are confined to the rules of the reality defined around it. Not necessarily our reality, but something like our reality.

Sorry if I'm not making much sense. Someone really needs to invent better terms and definitions for this idea.

While Elder Scrolls can get away with some gritty realism, mostly I prefer them to go with a stylized aesthetic.