Can someone explain me what exacly happen's once Ayem and Seth have died?

It is said that Vehk stays along to prepare the temple and reorganise it for the futur. Although then we get the (semi-official (correct me if I'm wrong)) trial of Vivec... that states how he pays back Azura for turning the golden Chimer to ashskined Dunmers by (errr hmmm) empaling her (won't go into the details here).

So all in all what does happen? Vivec reorgainses the Temple by banishing Azura from the Land of Morrowind -or Mundus/Nirn for that matter- (again, correct me if I am wrong) and what? I mean sure it's a great thing to take revenge for your fellow Tribunal Gods and for all your own race of mers but is that all he does? I know he vanishes after that but did he not do more for the Temple? Or is that all that is know?

Nothing specific is known.
I believe he says that the Dunmer will return to worshipping their ancestors. Well, they never reallt stopped, but they will treat the Tribunal as saints (of which they allready have quite a lot) instead of gods.

Gonna check it out now.
edit: Okey, didn't find anything in the CS. So that is what I believe, without any basis.

"Without the power of the Heart, our divine powers diminish. Our days as gods are numbered. I have told my priests that I shall withdraw from the world, and that the Temple should be prepared for a change. We may be honored no longer as gods, but as saints and heroes, and the Temple will return to the faith of our forefathers -- the worship of our ancestors and the three good daedra, Azura, Mephala, and Boethiah. The missions and traditions of the Temple must continue... but without its Living Gods."

Vivec_god's dialogue, on the "reorganize the Temple" subject.


By the way, this 150 delay between posts is incredibly annoying. Wasn't it 30 or 60 seconds before? It was already annoyingly long back then, but 150 is just provocation.

I knew there were something

Tell me about it.... :brokencomputer:

So basicly after having stolen the thunder as it were- from the Daedric Princes, he just simply says okay well now that we don't "kick ass" we just go back to before although do keep us as Saints (even though we killed Nerevar (okay remains to be proven), went mad and used the heart of Lokan for own profit and byt doing that changing the Ch8imer to Dunmer), damn he's a bit of fathead :s !

Although what about Azura then? go back to the faith of your forefathers after I have a go at Azura "queen of her own envy"? Someting just doesn't click here for me...

The Tribunal did alot of good for Morrowind, which is why they mantled Lorkhans power in the first place. Or at least why they pretended to use the power. They should be honored as saints, not gods. So they got that right.

According to Vivec, Azura is as fatheaded as you think Vivec is. Its all about perspective my friend.

You suggest it was a question of Vivec's revenge on Azura for the deaths of the other Tribunal members? You may be correct, but consider:

The wife that Vivec took from Nerevar after assassinating him with Nerevar's wife's assistance by many accounts ... then murdered his great friend Sotha-Sil.

The Nerevarine (re-incarnation of Nerevar) came along in all innocence and the ex-wife of Nerevar - recognised him/her as the reincarnation of her former husband Nerevar

After the Nerevarine discovers that Vivec's great buddy Sotha-Sil has been murdered, the murderer then attempts to murder the Nerevarine ... and fails miserably So Vivec lost a wife who might have murdered him next ...

So that leaves Vivec (who had been living apart from his fellow murderers (probably out of a sense of self-preservation) as the only one remaining of the group of 3 murderers ... and then the Nerevarine does Vivec the great favour of ridding the mundus of Dagoth Ur = no one left toking on the heart's powers.

Add it up and if Azura took any part in events she did Vivec a great favor - assuming that it was not Azura who set Dagoth Ur up to access the Heart.


Heehee - if you take the Trial as Lore then Vivec likely has the Nerevarine to thank that he is still around because his wife would have walked all over him. And so the Nerevarine has been instrumental in allowing Vivec to achieve CHIM ... and if Azura is responsible for the actions of the Nerevarine?


But try it another way. Vivec foreshadows Mephala the goddess of assassination? Who was really killing people off? Maybe to make a monkey out of everyone?

Absolutely, although they weren't going to do a lot of bad else I think that would have been really sticky. Nevertheless their "good" as you call it is not a white good, a lot of the good they did was good for them. A bit like saying Hitler was good for germany (which he was but just not good for everyone, what is more his good came with a p pice). What I mean is:

- Yes the ALMISIVI did a lot of good and were much more present than their former Daedric gods.

- But on the other hand, Tribunal killed the hero of the day (Nerevar), Vivec happily brainwashed his people with his 36 Sermons. The idea that a man (or mer) can kill his "master" and then brainwash the people into thinking he is a complet goon of a man is really truely back stabbing to a dregree (not saying how he ran of with his widow afterwoods). And if anyone showed signs of being the reincarnation of his old buddy he would promptly kill him.

So lets just say they were good to a degree but they weren't white like little lambs!




pretended? are you pulling my leg? or am I just not understanding you?






Not only but yes I do believe this. The idea came prickling to me when I read

"AE ALTADOON DUNMERI for my sister's madness I eat you."

"AE ALTADOON DUNMERI for my brother's wasting I eat you."

"AE CHIM CE ALTADOON for my own revenge I eat you."

So yeah I think he was sort of pissed off about what happened to the Tribunal including himself when he said that...

Although your so righ about his wife walking over him :rolleyes:



Somehow i doubt Vehk sees it that way...

I must say I like your answers - and it may be that I see something different in your quote.

Given Vivec's duality and adventures with a certain Prince of the Daedra (though possibly not a true Daedra) it seemed to me there is a sixual duality present. That could place an entirely different cast on those three sentances. Maybe they each referred to him? Maybe he was mad, maybe he referred to the reduction in power and he certainly did not eat Azura - more the other way around = someone sorta missed his own point

The question is what did happen to the Tribunal? It was not Azura who denied the Tribunal access to the Heart - it was Dagoth Ur.

Unless Azura set Dagoth Ur up what did that have to do with her?

If MK posts here that he intended to mean what you have written when he wrote that then I believe him ... but I also believe that is not what he has actually written :shrugs:


Try it another way - granted the following may not be what was intended, but for the sake of argument - k?

If Azura actually said: You are cursed by the Tribunal's perverted use of the Heart - maybe it was not so much that she was cursing the Dunmer as she was observing that the Tribunal were cursing themselves and the Dunmer by their own actions.

Say someone builds an Atomic Power Station incorrectly so that it leaks and an entire nation is poisoned thereby. Then a woman passing by says that they are cursed by this action.

Does the builder then claim that the passerby is the cause of the poisoning? He may do, but only if he is dishonest ... which does happen.

From another point of view even if the woman says I curse you - does that mean that she is the cause of the radiation poisoning?


Vivec's actions in that Trial do not ring true to me as they only cover one aspect and Vivec is normally about duality = balance. Also his natural victim ought to be Mephala, as his wife's would be Boethiah ...

And lastly madness is the province of Vivec's 'lawyer' Sheogorrath and Azura is the natural enemy of the Prince of madness ... so what was that really about? Unless Vivec was being used as a mouthpiece by Sheogorrath.

The only thing that then makes sense to me is if Sheoggorath has totally (or temporarily) taken control of Vivec and used Vivec to assault Azura. And where then is Vivec? Maybe prisoner of Sheogorrath. So what does that say about what Vekh said and did during the trial?

edit
little last bit A God may know what he is saying, and say it accurately or not, but does that mean that an observer of the God is going to get it right? And should it be a crime if the observer does not understand what the God said? And is it a crime if the observer notes that the God is lying? - you might like to equate that to the Dissident Priests

No of course he did not eat poor old Azura, that would be disgusting, I just think he was having an attempt at poetry again

I don't really think you can qualify a god (or ex-god in this case) that has been bobing bout in Nirn for over 2000 year sane or insane if you follow my meanning




Well no she did not deny access to the heart as such -neither di Ur for that matter he was just keeping K's Tools to himself naughty bugger that he was!- she just did not want them to use the Heart to given themselves godhood. This is what she said to Nerevar and therefore why the latter made them swear the oath on Azura. By doing that if they broke their vow Azura would know... the rest is history.



An interesstin point fo view which I don't think many people have thought about.. I would have thought she cursed them but then again maybe their was a more powerful force in play. (I love your metaphor on this )

But the question is (if I exclued the bit about Sheo taking control of Vehk because that would be the end of this discution) why did he do what he did to her and what will be the aftermath of it all (cause if he Wants his people to worship Azura like before then why has he empaled her?)

Umm - it could be he's a pervert and takes pleasure in [censored] - something he taught a former boyfriend ... easy answer. That's directly based on his past deeds etc ...

I see 3 ways forward here based on playing the game:

My actual view of the Lessons initially was that Vivec was just trying to puff himself and the other Tribunal members up in the eyes of the Dunmer, generally mysificating and giving them something salacious to add interest re 'the Lessons', etc.

Once I had met Vivec that seemed to be confirmed by his words, actions and what I found in the scrolls he gave me. Basically he was willing to say whatever it took to ensure what he believed to be in the interests of the people would happen.

The TIL Dogma
But then this Trial business comes along - and the 'cognoscenti' have a strong case that the Trial is his 'other side' taking over. They also appear to be implying some kind of parallel with instances where mortals have 'ascended' through re-enactment of murders of immortals. If you like would-be Gods create their own importance by committing acts of such barbarity and consequence that they are then perceived to be of the stature of their victims and in so doing they become immortal in the sight of the worshippers of those Gods, presumably taking over that defeated God's place in the scheme of things - thought being: after all only someone of equal puissanse could kill their God, right?

Assuming that Vivec is already a demi-god then maybe he does not have to actually kill a God to become one - maybe they are thinking that [censored] will suffice?

The Sheogorrath Dogma
But what it comes back to for me is that it could also be Sheogorrath infusing Vivec with madness if Vivec is not quite as CHIMMED-up as people believe. In that case Vivec would claim great power, but it might be Sheogorrath speaking though Vivec's mouth and controlling Vivec's deeds to take revenge on Sheogorrath's old enemy Azura. Question then is would the dev roleplaying Vivec be able to admit that he was not in charge of his character any more So what I am suggesting is that it could be this is not Vivec speaking or Vivec acting - he's might have become a puppet for a hostile power and has no more control. Otherwise I have seen nothing that makes (acceptable) sense.

The Third Way
The easy counter again is that Vivec = duality ... half Chimer and half Dunmer, bisixual, good and bad etc ... so then you say what happened is the bad side. It could be, using all that has been written that fits - but really it goes nowhere. So I am looking towards a third path - I am hoping for more duality.


If this were to become an expansion what I would like to see would be multiple paths where Vivec might be a puppet of Sheogorrath or he might be acting according to the other side of his true nature ... you decide ... and a whole load of detail that could make following either path rewarding and maybe bring the player up to a new level of involvement.

It could be that the outcome would be similar either way - in that case it is the journey that is important rather than the destination.

Just a few things that I noticed while reading your post that I want to lay before you to think about:

- The 36 Sermons were not written for the Dunmer. (Bonus for answering who they were written for. Sadly, the CHIM thread where I asked this question was locked before anyone would answer).
- To the Chimer/Dunmer, murder is accepted, even sacred. See Mephala. So, it might be worth thinking about a sacred murder of Nerevar. And thinking about the difference of a leader who's running to an inimical god for counsel in contrast to leaders from your own people.
- Vivec is not, never was and will not be able to ever kill the real Nerevarine. So it is a certainty that the other Nerevarines were not the real ones. Considering the danger of a fake Nerevarine poses, maybe things look different.

Just a few thoughts of mine...

I think your misunderstanding. I meant perhaps they 'pretended' to have good intentions. However, I find that unlikely.

In the end I think your probably right and they did gain the power of the heart of Lorkhan for their own good. Even though they did help all of Morrowind.

Lol - 36 Lessons (excuse the pleasure I take in nitpicking) :shrugs: and I might remember one day about who it is said it was written for ... hmm - some guy called the Nerevarine maybe? hope it's ok wit Oborrowind if I answer this?

It occurs that if it was sacred murder rather than for lust (of power or each other) they murdered Nerevar to 'sanctify' their connection to the Heart. And that's a whole extra kettle of fish.

But I have not caught which leader is running to an inimical god rather than the leaders of his/her own people? Azura was not an inimical God - Azura was an accepted and officially Chimer-friendly god. And therefore whether she approached Nerevar or the other way around ... ? Nerevar did go to those who had made him leader with the news from Azura- their God - and they swore on Azura's name because they trusted both Nerevar and Azura their God ... but it appears that those who came to call themselves the Tribunal were damned by their own weakness and thereafter gave in to temptation.

Maybe they called themselves the Tribunal becuase they really needed to pronounce judgement on themselves while pretending it was on Nerevar.

If anything it might be suggested that Kagrenac had already shown that his tools and his way was corrupted or flawed - yet the Tribunal in their eagerness to grab godhood ignored that warning too. Unless you suggest that Kagrenac succeeded and the Dwemer are happily floating about outside the Aurbis unbeknownst to anyone within?

I'm not sure where your last part about real and fake Nerevarines comes into play - seems the Nerevarine is the Nerevarine is ... etc and the fakes make themselves irrelevant by their inability to succeed - and by their own deaths.




This bit keeps niggling at me so I've returned to it.

I suspect that to get to the Heart the Tribunal would have to pass Dagoth Ur and his Ash Vampires with an army ... they tried that and failed without those tools according to what I read. Maybe because they waited too long and had weakened too much? And it would appear that they were unable to access the Heart without the Tools. I can't see any purpose to Dagoth Ur's possession of the tools other than to prevent the Tribunal from using them.

Is it so hard to say that Vivec is the ultimate rascal first, and a divine leader second? He admitted as much, and MK has said that his behavior at the trial was partially the result of a group decision on what he would do when freed of his heavy responsibilities and Ken Rolston's dialog.

cool - and in that group was 'the dev' Sheogorrath? So the question remains has Sheoggorath taken over Vivec - is that so hard for you to ask of yourself?

Role-playing is a shared thing - as in which moon is currently in the ascendant ... and where is all the nitty gritty that tells us exactly what that 'group' decision really meant to each participant, their various interrelations etc, etc.

It's ok to simplify - also fun to expand ...


are you worried about the Ghost of Vivec's sanity past/

Vivec is a black-hearted selfish devil. Luckily for all of us though, his black heart is actually very big. And in all his selfishness and ego, he still left instructions on what and how he did what he did - even to the point where there is a chance to do better than him (and look prettier).

Not sure Vivec would agree about the prettier part.

Really that's interesting, where did you find that one out? (if they werebn't what are they doing lying bout Morrowind?). And nope 1999 I don't agree with your answer .okay seriously then, why did he write such cowpats? Truely for the Nerevarine? What did he want to accomplish by writing that for him??






That may well be possible. One could easily believe that before the imperials moved in the only way to make justice was by the family of the dead victim, using their one resources from their house or with the legal local thugs: The Comma Tong. Which lorewise would be absolutly spote on.

As for the hypothese that the murder of Lord Nerevar was all part of the sanctification and union of the Tribunal to the Heart of lokhan sounds very nice and romantic, although it still chose how what sh*t friend Vivec is, what a traitorous wife Ayem is and what lovely teacher Sotha Sil turns out to be!No matter what your cultur is no one likes being murdered!







Yeah well we all no that but the principle of killing them just because of what they could be souds wrong and obviously evil! Has no one got morals anymore??!!



As for the weakness's of the Tribunal, I think they more likely were planning that from the word go. I just don't think they imagined it would turn out the way it did...


" Unless you suggest that Kagrenac succeeded and the Dwemer are happily floating about outside the Aurbis unbeknownst to anyone within?" I doubt this is what happened




I agree about the part of "Dagoth Ur's possession of the tools other than to prevent the Tribunal from using them" without a doubt that is what happened. As for the rest I don't think i quite follow you since the moment when the Tribunal had to go passed Dagoth Ur and all his jolly friends was way after the battle at the Red Mountain when Ayem and Seht lost the tools to Ur and Vivec came along to help them out (but they lost access and the Tools)... anyhow it seems you are talking of the start of the Downfall of the Three gods and I am talking of just before they decided to become what we know now as the Tribunal.






no but your right I esitated and fell on the wrong word....

? Supposedly the Lessons were lying about Morrowind for the Nerevarine to find of course

It remains uncertain why and how Nerevar was murdered and by whom. We have various claims in different books in-game that make statements, contradict themselves and each other :shrugs: so we speculate.

There is writing in-game apparently that Vivec did write the Lessons for the Nerevarine - you may decide his precise motives for doing so

Speculations? -
Maybe Vivec knew he would be unable to defeat the Nerevarine and so made this offering as a peace gift?
Maybe because he decided that the Nerevarine would save his bacon for him?
Maybe because he felt responsible (many would say for a change) ?
Maybe to prepare the people for the coming of the Nerevarine?
all maybes - I believe others may be more certain as to the reasons

But it is certain that Vivec and his pals swore an oath to Nerevar on Azura's name and they reneged on that oath - so there was a debt to be paid. In mundane events we still talk about destiny etc, but that oath seemingly tied treachery into the foundations of their divinity and who knows what effect that had?

Another thought is that although they previously accepted Azura as one of their Gods the Tribunal were bound by her name not to use the Tools of Kagrenac and the Heart to make themselves into god-like beings and Vivec may have seen this as a restriction on his freedom and blamed Azura - which would be a reason why he might seek revenge on Azura. But was it Azura's idea they swear on her name? It was Nerevar's idea as far as I can remember.



lol - ummm suicide?

True, it is just hypothesis, an unsubstantiated theory, but if a sacrifice was needed to connect to the Heart initially then it's true that the Dunmer have their own code of lawful and unlawful murder - as Mephala is their 'God'/daedric Prince of Murder/Assassination.

Also maybe Nerevar changed his mind and offered himself up as that sacrifice? O:

Or it might be that it was Dagoth Ur who actually murdered Nerevar and that was how Dagoth Ur made his connection to the Heart? All speculation and its unlikely we will ever know for sure.

morals? are they little sea-creatures that tase great sauteed in butter with garlic?

Note paw-print's contribution:


Vivec appears to be something of a rogue - and it is in that spirit that the people of Morrowind love/d him - remember that bandit and the girl he met by the roadside?

I suppose we see eye to eye then about Kagrenac - it just shows either how vastly the Tribunal miscalculated and how foolhardy they were or what a great sacrifice they made.

About The Tools and Dagoth Ur? The Tribunal gained the Tools to make themselves demi-gods and used them - but the method was flawed or incomplete and needed to keep returning to the Heart to svck more power from it - like Vampires.

They were not Gods in that it they were not generating the power themselves nor was it ceeded willingly to them as by worshipers. They had not really earned it. Although the people revered them as Gods they were not actually in themselves worthy of that worship as they could not be sustained either by their own natures or the worship of the people = they were very powerful fakes.

The really fascinating thing is that Dagoth Ur did not use the tools - so was he actually a God? Evil as he appeared, (and it is clear he became corrupted) could it be that he was the only genuine one and true initially?

all of your reasons would be plausable exept for this one, because he diminshes the Nerevarine so much i doubt all though one could as well assume that it was done so that it would take a true Nerevarine to come out under such a context...



How could he blame Azura without first blaming Nevera and finally and more stupidly blame himself for taking the oath!




Fare point




Yes I agree as I have stated before... but on second thoughs Dagoth Ur managed it without any sacrifice, then again many would argue that he sacrificed his sanity and consequently the futur of his House.



Yeah! Right in Vivec wildest dreams maybe! But seriously, Vehk admitted to his murder right? The most famous statement would be the hidden message within the 36 lessons (<- getting better aren't I?:D)




Or maybe his sacrifice was bigger and better. Personnly though, I think he got corrupted and did not use the Tools, I think he did not want them used (as we can read) and due to him staying around the warped heart he got taken in by its power changing from Voryn Dagoth to Dagoth Ur (I don't why he changed name does anyone else know?) anyhow he was not given godhood more like a mad ilimited power.... Or as you say he did become a god but they -mere mortals that they are- can not deal with such power and went a bit loopy-loo. So in a way the half godhood that the ALMISIVI acquired was probably a blessing in disguise.

He does:
But I gladly?no, delightfully?admit to stealing my bridge to godhood! Let the court record I would do it again and again. Moreover, I've left instructions for others to do the same, and look more pretty than I did doing it!
- Vehk at his Trial (Hogithum Hall, Part II, downloadable html from http://www.imperial-library.info/characters/trial_vivec.shtml)


By reading, thinking and through a precious few good people to help me and talk to.
You're beginning to ask the right questions. Now, you should look for the answers. They're in the same writings where you found the questions. Begin asking the question "If he really was writing to the Nerevarine, why the heck did he write to the one who might be the reincarnation of the one he murdered? What's so special about him - or her?"

lol - I guess I missed that pretty bit Nalion

I must admit that I always have and likely will continue to underestimate the Lessons ... too much like code from my point of view. Even when I read my own poems I lose track of what I was doing originally when the creative madness is on me.

-

Oborrowind - there are many cultures in which leaders have seen themselves as a sacrifice to the people - just about all of them at one time or another maybe.

-

And I still do not like that Trial thing. It is not about understanding it or out-of-game reasons for having to do something. It's just that it feels so petty and inadequate to accomplish it's end. As well as being unworthy of the characters and the history involved.

Interesting discussion. I like all the points put forward. As a good conversation will do, this has sparked in me a reassessment of a few points, one of which I would like to slap down here.

I think many people (myself included) interpret Vivic as murdering Nerevar, and then becoming sorry for his actions. The hidden lesson in the Lessons seems like an apology.

But taking into account that Vivic was/is the anticipation of Mephala brings a new light to my eyes. Rather than murdering Nerevar to get him out of the way, or as a sacrifice to power the ritual to bind them to the heart, what if Vivic murdered Nerevar to ensure that Nerevar would return?

Figuring in the anticipations of the rest of the Tribunal you have murder and secrets (Mephala), beginnings and endings (Azura), conspiracy, deceit, murder (again). This could imply that the whole Tribunal was in on the murder, but for different reasons. They could have surmised that Nerevar's natural death might be pointless (old age, falling down a cliff, killed during sword training, catching a disease) and wanted to ensure he became a heroic martyr. Killing him in a "heroic" way that stories would be told about it would seem an appealing option.

And yet, it seems Vivic knew he would return. The lessons really are a good proof that Vivic knew a long time ago that Nerevar would return. One way of being so sure is to have killed Nerevar in such a way that his reincarnation would be assured. Thus the secret message in the Lessons was not so much a confession, but a way to let Nerevar know who to thank. This seems very in character with Vivic, to me. (Of course the second secret message could be problematical, unless it was delivered with a sly nod and a wink.)

:celebration: Woopie we're all gonna die! love it - that smug, self-congratulatory grin behind Vivec's mask sits very nicely

Not sure that the Nerevarine would see it that way though it is a very fine idea.

This has been one of the most refreshing and inspirational threads I have seen for a very long time - thanks guys :thumbsup: