So first off this is really a thread about MMO style Aggro(hate) and actiony game combat, or if you dont play MMOs its kinda like Dragon Age. MMO haters can stop reading here, because the rest of this wont matter to you anyway.

This is specifically about combat and AI in combat. Not about generaly smarter AI. There is a thread for that here: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1166835-skyrims-ai/

As far as Ive ever been able to tell(Ive not done any testing) in Oblivion or Fallout monster hate is really only based on damage. Which is perfectly fine with Oblivion because it was made without real followers and you were almost always by yourself anyway, and in the event that you have a companion mod and YOU want to wade in with heavy armor swinging a big sword youd be doing most of the damage anyway. But with Fallout its a little different. Im going off mostly New Vegas here because even with mods I never used companions in Fallout 3. Im using Veronica, and shes wearing Power Armour. She will run in and literally start knocking heads off but usually everything still runs at ME hiding in the shadows and not the crazy happy psycho with a shotgun for a hand. Its just... kind of immersion breaking and it really makes using companions lame.

Back on Oblivion YOU can tank fine as a heavy melee, but what about Mages or Thieves that dont want that attention? What if you want to use a big angry Nord as a companion in Skyrim(Im going off the assumption there may be vanilla companions in Skyrim) and have him sort of like, tank? Or you conjure a REALLY BIG ANGRY DAEDRA as a Mage and want it to soak up hits but not be stuck not being able to toss in some Fireballs, and thus be stuck standing around summoning more REALLY BIG ANGRY DAEDRAs when your REALLY BIG ANGRY DAEDRA dies, because youd just pull hate off the REALLY BIG ANGRY DAEDRA by doing much else?

EDIT: Not only would this allow people to play a more tanky role, but it would also make support or healer characters somewhat more viable and fun to play.

Even in the event that aggro stays the same there are NPC combat AI issues that I dont really have faith in Bethesda fixing. At most maybe theyve tuned NPC AI to NOT shoot you and other friendlies in the back, but thats not enough IMO. Positioning is a big deal when it comes to fights with more than just You vs. 1 NPC. IDK about you guys but I HATED how NPCs would all just make a strait beline and bunch up in one spot on what theyre attacking, like trying to help a Guard only to have another Guard run right in front of you(and with me it usually results in an angry Guard with an arrow sticking out of his backside).

Dont bother with the "New game engine" crap response, it holds no water. Not only do we NOT know how the new engine differs(or if its even any better), but it wouldnt make any difference if the Devs dont think of or want to change this kind of thing.

Personally I would like a little more flavor for combat, like say... backstabs. You can argue that because an NPC already cant block your attack if youre behind him that can be considered a "Backstab Bonus", but I disagree. Easiest thing to do is just slap a multiplier on and forget about it(stacking with sneak attacks as a reward for the trouble of sneaking up to melee). I dont think its the best solution but its a lot better than not having any kind of bonus for being smarter and the somewhat more effort to position yourself properly in combat(kind of like six). I encourage people to suggest other kinds of bonuses or Perks for combat positioning because I know theres some ideas out there(Deadly Reflex) and Im sure there are better solutions than mine.

The only reason I really bring up positioning is NPC AI though. I would like to see NPCs flank. Each other and the PC. I would like, if I am playing a S&S heavy armour wearer, my Rogueish follower to circle around and flank monsters without me needing to abuse poor AI. I dont mean the little side-shuffle marksmen NPCs do in Oblivion, but really try and get behind(or on to elevations) so they dont hit me with a fireball when I sidestep just an inch. The coolest thing would also being able to send in said Rogue to get a sneak attack off on a patrol or watchman, or NPCs to have more combat personality in general. I can understand this may create a problem with terrain pathing but I should hope under a new engine youve fixed this a little bit.

Oh, and Turtles. Why Turtles? Well ever since Id seen the weapon chart with dual wielding shields(which I still think is just a joke btw) it made me think that maybe we CAN play a very defensive character, and use followers(including summons) as a source of damage. This was why I brought up the change of Aggro from being based on just damage, because a defensive character would need another way to attract attention than abusing AI on corners or causing the highest damage.

In FO3, Dogmeat would aggro enemies more than the player. People complained that he died too easily. Puppies perk. Awful. In both FO3 or NV, I've never had a problem with enemies that refuse to on aggro my companions. What I do is run when enemies get near me. I know, it seems crazy that you would run from an enemy that is about to maul you, but it actually works.

The aggro mechanic itself is best used when you have multiple party members. Dragon Age has 4, so it works pretty well to have a tank, rogue, mage, extra (can be off-tank, DPS, whatever). The problem with the aggro mechanic is that it's just plain worse than simply improving enemy AI. For example, BGII had backstabbers go after the party member with the lowest HP. Mages are dangerous, so set the AI to go after mages. If your warriors gets to close to an archer, the archer should run. Stuff like that. I know what you're thinking "but then they wont attack my tank because he has 2 shields and does no damage". That's true, but if you get yourself into an unflankable position and have your tank hold the line, the enemy is screwed. The difference between aggro mechanic and actual good AI for intelligent enemies is that the latter requires use of tactics and terrain whereas the former requires use of the provocation spells. It's a bad mechanic in general, and is especially bad for a TES game where you're not focus on tactical combat with a party, but slashing, magic, or sneaking with a solo or duo.

Companion AI needs to improve, yes. The problem with trying to make them tactical is that they are completely AI, and AI can't guess what you want it to do. It can try to do certain things (use potion at low health, use bluntz on armoured foes, axes on unarmoured, try to go undetected, etc), but it's really not going to be smart. Combat AI needs to improve, though, form companions and enemies.

On dual-shields as an argument for aggro: 1) shields are not a purely defensive tool. 2) If you choose to use a purely defensive character, you must live with the consequences. 3) you can switch to a weapon at times when dual shields are not the best choice.

tl;dr: Aggro is bad, especially for TES.

Ah Ive never played BG2, I like that bit about backstabbers. Doesnt make sense for someone using daggers to mindlessly beat on the guy with a shield(even the PC), but I wouldnt want them to make a beline for the mage either unless the mage like sets them all on fire. I would rather they improve AI rather than an aggro bandaid too, where if you have a Mage follower they would hang back and NOT start blasting with a fireball right away so enemies dont think much of him at first. Im no programmer or dev but I imagine thats kinda hard to code to make it dynamic(at least Ive never seen a game with anything like that yet).

Btw I wasnt seriously serious about wanting to play a dual-shielder lol. Just some adjustment to aggro to make it not damage or level based. A large screaming Nord running at you with a big sword would probably attract more attention initially than some guy standing back twirling his fingers. Or a Rogue might not join in combat at first and sneak around to take out the weakest looking enemy.

MMO aggro is actually really bad, and the AI is worse. I dont think well see AI advanced enough to replace a player anytime soon though, so I think a little bit of an aggro system would help. Not that I want TES to feel that you need a companion or anything, but I very much doubt Im the only one that uses them and would like to see groups be a bit more viable. Nothing to the extent of Tank + Healer + DPS of course, but just being able to mesh roles a bit.

I do but still interested.
:read:


Oh, you just lost me.

I have about as much faith in Bethesda thinking outside the TES box as I do in Bioware writing unpredictable plots. I like a lot of the changes theyre doing but they still seem like baby steps to me(which judging by the community reactions, is probably a good idea). Besides its not like theres any evidence(to my knowledge) of Bethesdas ability to make great AI, even the RAI in Oblivion was just script pooling.

Which is sort of the whole point of this, pointing out there are other options to allow for more gameplay diversity.

Aggro is already in in some regard. Instead of it just being a level check like WoW (If you are level 1 and the enemy is level 50, he can attack you from super far away, and if the levels are switched, you can practically walk over them), it is a rather complicated system. But it still is Aggro.

*shrug* I still feel it needs a change though. Not as much as combat AI needs an improvement, but some aggro tweaking could help that. Threat based on actions instead of damage or skills or level, though I dont have any ideas on how to actually accomplish that.

Can't be that difficult to tell the AI to be passive: No attacking until PC attacks, after that follow regular combat script until combat ends. Pretty sure the Phalanx mod for FO3 has a bunch of different actions for followers to take, too. Have your mage follow you from a distance if you're a tank, or have your tank be the vanguard if you're squishy. This way enemies with the current AI will just notice the person in front and attack. Once they're committed to the attack, it probably wouldn't be worth it to go after the other character.

I wasn't suggesting enemies to all target a mage or anything for TES, just saying that it's superior to have better AI for games that would otherwise use aggro.

I think it would actually be more difficult to have the companion AI set to sneak attack proficiently than to have them be passive or hang back.

Well that would be a definite improvement. I would take it a little farther though and have that sort of behavior replace combat scripts. In Oblivion its mostly just "Use spell X over spell Y" to define NPC roles rather than actually different styles of combat. I suppose an "Aggro" system isnt really needed with some AI tweaks and script packages.

Like for Mages and Bow users there could be a "If higher elevation exists within X radius and is pathable: go there!" or something. And for Rogues... Idk, maybe a "stay off to the side and back a bit, sneak when enemies detected, initiate combat from stealth unless detected" kind of thing. It would be great to see hostile NPCs use this kind of thing and have it scale so higher levels or harder difficulties have more 'tactics' available to use(could be randomized).

Really I just want NPCs to act a little smarter without a ton of text trees, and to make their behavior more dynamic depending on the situation. Dragon Age has this when it comes to skill use, though you still need to preset your tactics and it doesnt apply to positioning(like Rogues wont move to flanking positions on their own). Uh, some way to simulate environmental awareness.