Not sure if there was an EMP in the game because I have yet to see anything mentioned but I noticed that the Enclave vertibirds fly around, why doesn't Rivet City use all those airplanes that are scattered all over the flight deck?!



Think if its been sitting there for 200 years, somebody would fix it up and fly the heck outta thur like thur right thur? lol...

Simple answer: The flight deck wasn't long enough after the carried broke in two, that and lets face it... how long were those aircraft left without maintenance? As for the Enclave... I would hazard a guess and say they have some form of advanced manufacturing and are producing the Vertibirds.

Because there arent exactly a lot of trained Aircraft Mechanics lying around. Aeroplanes are complicated machines, even simple ones.

I've actually written an article on what Aerospace technology could exist in the fallout universe - I've kinda misplaced it, but here is the basics. Note this is speculation and supposition on my part.

1) Hot air Baloons - Probably exist in moderate and higher technology groups. Textiles and some gas burning technology required. Probably owned by richer eccentrics for pleasure, and used by organised governments (NCR, Vault city, etc) for scouting, cartorgraphy and aerospace research.

2) Lighter than air baloons and Zepplins - Helium aircraft (like blimps are today) are probably non existant due to the difficulty in getting helium. This leaves Hydrogen, like the Hindenburg used, which is plentyful and relatively easy to produce (Any water source, even if undrinkable + Electric Current = Oxygen and Helium). Known to exist in the BOS (if Tactics is taken as Canon). Within technological grasp of the NCR, Shi, and Vault City, although the NCR is more likely than the others to build them it due to better resources. Can be used for transport, as well as scouting purposes. Probably out of reach of the regular citizen, although richer caravan masters may have an interest in this technology to get above the raiders.

3) Fixed Wing Gliders - Essentially an aeroplane without an engine. They can take off by various sources, such as another fixed wing aircraft towing it, a winch (essentually an engine with a long cable), an Auto-Tow, or a bungie launch from a hill. The Current standing endurance gliding record is over 56 hours, and was set in 1952 (new records stopped being existed at this point for safety reasons), showing that long term flights without an engine are possible given pre-divergence technology. This would require some degree of civil control (as an airfield of some type would be required, and would need to be maintained) and technological development (to build the aircraft structure and launch method). Gliders can be used for recognissance and transport (tanks and troops were transported by glider in WW2). Shi, NCR, Vault City, and the Brotherhood are all potential users of Gliding technology.

4) Fixed wing power - Aeroplanes. Some level of civil control is required to operate and maintain an airfield, and a good understanding of technology is required to build and maintain. AvGas (Fuel) is likely to be extremely rare, so any Fixed wing flying is probably limited unless alternative fuel sources are available. NCR and Vault City, with their access to pre war vaults (and the Vault library contained within) could possbily build a fixed wing aircraft. Brotherhood is a possibility, depending on the source of their library. Shi are less likely without these sources, but due to their organised scientific culture have the capability to rediscover the secrets on their own (if they cant find a source in an old San Fran Library somewhere). This is probably the minimum level of flight technology the enclave would show, however due to their lack of territorial control would have some trouble showing this power.

5) Helicopter / Vertibird. A Heliport is probably easier to control, operate and maintain than a full runway airfield, but helicopters would require a good technological understanding and capability. Enclave show this capability. NCR and Vault City with their access to Vault Library computers might be able to build some elementry helicopters. Shi and Brotherhood may have plans and capability to build vertibirds, depending on how you finished FO2. However, fuel is likely to be a problem.

Three problems.

First: who would fly it? Contary to Battlefield Earth, planes are complicated machines. You don't just jump in one and off you go.

Second: Where would you go? Most of the roads are in ruin, and likely so are all airfields. Plus, chances are other areas are in just as much trouble as you are.

Third: Fuel. Where will you find fuel? This leads into the issue raised by point two: Where else will you find fuel once you take off?

Bottomline, is most aircraft are exceedingly unpractical until there has been major reconstruction, someone figures out how to control them, and finally, finds the fuel for them.

Well I know Vertibirds use Fission reactors, I think. So it seemed weird that Adams AFB had tanker trucks everywhere.

Regular airplanes seem pointless in this day, nowhere to land safely, no reason to drop bombs and with Vertibirds...why bother?

1. The planes are more than 200 years old. That alone should explain why they are useless.

Actually they should be rusted pieces of junk like the cars all over the Fallout world or the Rivet City carrier itself as they were outside all the time and exposed to the forces if weather instead of , for instance, the fighter in the Museum of Technology. Consider this a little logic and level design screw up by Bethesda. Another thing i would love to include into a realism mod.

2. No fuel.

3. No body knows how to fly a plane. Try to find a flight instructor who does not work for the Enclave

Hmmmm I think the complaints about fuel are forgetting the fact that in the Fallout3, a simple Fission Battery can power a sentry or gutsy robot for an indefinite period of time! I don't think power/fuel is quite the problem in that universe that it is for us petrolium-addicted ancient-folk.

I also recall that rocket motor technology is advanced-enough that a single engine can keep a gutsy aloft, so the technology to construct very compact rocket motors that most assuredly run on fusion batteries exists.

I think that very much opens the possibilities for the kind of aircraft that would be possible in that timeframe. Unfortunately it also makes the Vertibird a ridiculous notion - perhaps the most complex of all aircraft (look at how much trouble we have had making our modern version work!). To make the vertibird a viable thing, there would have to be a huge factory somewhere pumping out the things and sending them flying to all corners of America - along with tons of spare parts and mechanics to keep them running. While I love the Vertibirds and think they are a Great and Fun addition to Fallout3, I find their presence un-characteristic of the rest of the game.

M

Nope, we dont forget that.

You cannot simply put a fission battery into a airplane and let it fly. What a fission battery does is producing electricity , and a jetengine does not work on electricity you know.
It needs a inflammable high energy liquid which it can burn together with compressed air to push the airplane forward.

A fission battery is also NOT a nuclear reactor. The electricity a fission battery produces is directly converted heat which is created by the radioactive decay of the material inside. (Usually , Strontium or Plutonium)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator


Powering Vertibirds with nuclear energy is a different story. This could actually work if you could build a nuclear reactor which is small and light enough.
Obviously these exist in the Fallout universe as the cars in the Fallout universe work exactly this way.

Propellors can be powered by high pressure water steam created in a mini-nuclear reactor or by electric motors which run on electricty created with the same water steam in a turbogenerator just like it is done in real nuclear power plants or submarines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressurized_water_reactor

Hrm, sure you could run virtibirds on fission batterys - especially virtibirds as the engines can be run electrically (just as the cars in the Fallout3 world are). I don't see why you would need a combustible fuel to run an airplane unless it's using Jet Engines. Given the total lack of fuel, it does make sense that propeller-driven aircraft could last (in some capacity) while fossil-fuel driven engines would, "run out of gas". And I have to argue the point on the Fission Battery - its called that for a reason, and the amount of power it puts out (to run a Gutsy or Sentry) means it must be capable of generating enough power to run a turbo-prop. So to me, power is not really the issue.

The real issue is in keeping the engines running, presuming no New engine development in the 200 years since the war ended. Its one thing to have tons of batteries lying around, that it easy to fathom. But working engines? I agree with your posting here that it would not really be viable after 100 years, especially 200 years. Thats why virtibirds (flawless looking, fresh off the assembly line) are just not probable without a modern manufacturing center.

M

Sure. But the thread is about the jet fighters in Rivet City. And jet engines only work with liquid fuel and nothing else.
To have them fly again you would need to produce a powerful synthetic fuel from natural gas or coal like the ones Germany's industry and military was mostly running on during both world wars.

And neither is really available in the Fallout world. Not to mention the industrial capactiy and technological hardware this requires.

Well, maybe the Enclave might have some still existing chemical plants under the control.

You could create synthetic fuel from biomass like Brahmin [censored] but this would never burn good or hot enough for running a jet engine.

As for the fission battery : If their power output is like the ones of our real world then they could never lift a airplane into the skies.
Well, maybe a model airplane or a drone.

You need muuuuch more power to lift a helicopter or plane than what thermocouples can deliver from that temperature they produce. Fission batteries are not about creating much electricity but more about providing electricty for a loooooong loooooong time.

So what is the point your arguing? There are no Jet-Engine planes that fly in Fallout3 - so I think we both agree there? :rolleyes:



Bah - this is pure speculation on your part, we have no idea on how much power a fission battery puts out - and look at the batteries used with Gatling Lasers - they pack a mighty-big wallop. So on this point I think its completely viable to have batteries strong-enough to fly airplanes. Your making the assumption that power-consumption of the prop-engines are as in-efficient as engines are today - which is clearly not the case in the Fallout3 world.

I find it very easy to believe that larger batteries would be possible, but the engines themselves - thats why I would find very hard to believe would still be working. Even electrical motors would wear-out after 200 years unless new ones were produced.

M

Oh, it seems that i misread your post and mixed it up with something somebody else posted. Sorry



To the batteries : They obviously dont have more power in the Fallout world either or the cars would run on THEM instead of the bigger ,more complex and expensive mini nuclear reactors right ?

Indeed I can't argue there, the Fallout3 planes probably had fusion reactors for power and fuel for the jet engines. Its all good fun to speculate about for sure.

For me it has a special significance as well, which will become more clear here in time.

Cheers!

M

I would think that autogyros might be more common in advanced circles, such as the NCR, BOS etc.

I would think this. Given we have scientists smart enough to repair pre-war nuclear cars (FO2), repair small water purifiers (In megaton), understand energy and PA tech (BoS, Outcasts, and Enclave), repair prewar robots, and even a random vault dweller can rig a nuke to explode, I think there are enough people with smarts to make auto gyros or crude fixed wing plans based on propeller tech. The original fixed wing airplane was made by bicycle repair men for crying out loud.

Also, with the energy weapons in use, I bet someone could mach up a jet engine. The fuel adds energy to compressed air by heating it, so I bet they could replace the burners with a modified plasma projection system (as plasma is typically super heated/ionized gases). Of course, this is just conjecture.

What would be cool is if someone started selling para-sailing rides, maybe off of Tenpenny tower.

The Vertibirds aren't really out of place in Fallout. The Enclave obviously has manufacturing plants still intact somewhere (as an other poster already mentioned) in order to crank out new 'birds and spare parts. And no mystery about all the tanker trailers seen at the AFB. They are to fuel the jet fighters seen parked in some of the hangars. Undoubtedly these tankers have been long empty though..

well with all those robots laying around maybe one coulda taught somebody how to fly... or maybe some waster took a airplane apart and learned how to use it... as for fuel of those rivet city planes, maybe they run on fission batties?


but ya they should be rusted over if they have been there for 200 years lol.



After playing Fallout 3 , it seems liked the bombs fell maybe 15 year ago not 200 lol...

bottom line
no one knows how to fly
why would you want to fly anyway?
where are you going to go?

if you say California they have no way to talk with California so they have no idea its almost rebuilt :nono:

From the air, it would be easier to spot the SuperMutant source.

Aircracft arent just about going somewhere.

can some one tell me the difference between a nuclear reactor in a car and a fission battery i thought they did the same thing... fission...
and why use fission when you can use fusion power sources that fit in your hand.. how this is remotly possible i have no idea.. some very very smart pre war scientist i guess.. well i guess plasma is pretty similar to fusion in containment and stff

but back to the point is how would the aircraft that i assume is made from iron or steel is still in a well... air craft shape after 200 years (maby because of the desert condition)? or leave the carrier? if they are pushed off maby,
those jets would have to be reverse engineered so new ones could could be build with parts no one has or knows how to make ,then poeple would have to learn how to fly it
but you do have a point some one somwhere would have found a way to fly in 200 years with all that technology lieing around.

Because they don't know how to fly. Why would they? They don't even have a clue as to how their city got started a matter of decades earlier, there's no reason to expect them to be capable of controlling an aircraft, much less a jet fighter.

If it were made of those, it would struggle to fly. You'd need some light weight material.


Takeoff and landings are very difficult, there's a good chance that an unexperienced pilot with no instructor would kill himself on an attempt to landing. I've done over 100 landings, and I'm almost there.

I would think that any aircraft recovered, could have the potential to be brought back into service, though due to the lack of dedicated airfields, and of course flight instructors....many new pilots would basically be trial and error guinea pigs(similar to military aviation during WW1).

If anything, helos and auto-gyros would be the preferred method of aerial transit.

Actually when a Nuclear bomb of any kind goes off, it gives off a wide circle of a EMP. So that's probably why they don't work either. But it does matter how big the bomb is because if its small, the EMP could last for a couple of years. But something like what happened in FO is possible it took out the electronics of the planes.

The EMP would have also wiped out every computer and holotape in its radius as well. Unless they were extremely well shielded. Even then...
Still, I like that explaination for why the planes are just sitting there. Why they were never taken apart for other uses is the real question. Surely the parts could be used for something besides an overgrown lawn ornament? Maybe?