Changing something's appearance and biology doesn't make you its biological father/mother, though. You said it needn't be a metaphor, but it's a metaphor you're describing here.

Dragons just "are". They've existed since Time itself, yet Alduin came before the rest.

And it breaks lore. Akatosh is a politcal creation by Alessia. Nords would have no reason to like him in his older aspects, considering his forces killed Shor (and Tsun).

Basically, imagine you would lose all Nordic support for worshiping one god. These Nords are more or less all what's stopping the Ayleid's from taking back White Gold. Yet your entire populace worships that god. So, you merge the pantheon on your society and the pantheon of the Nords. That's Akatosh. That's the entire religion of the Eight Divines.

Like I said, something similar. Similar =/= exactly the same.


Auri-El that is Akatosh formed linear time, and Auri-El that is Akatosh isn't a dragon it just takes the shape of one, much like the Daedric lords have no gender they just appear in a specific way, and the species of dragons came after that so no, Dragons have not existed since time began, they were made, at earliest, shortly after it.

Also I think the fact that the Alyeids are extinct is whats stopping them from re-taking white-gold tower.

I'm gonna make a few leaps here, and correct your (and the very common understanding) "political creation" to "man-changed God". Alessia may have come up with the idea of Akatosh-as-Akatosh, but even Pelinel references "Aka", and the Nords were worshiping Dragon* since Atmora. Then there was that whole Marukhati Experience (dibs on the name for obscure indy band), wherein they forcibly did something to Time (capital T, Big Daddy Dragon), temporarily breaking It in the process.

Which brings me to a point/question: If you change Time, when do those changes take effect? Did what happened during the Second Dawn influence events from the First one? We're talking about Time here, after all... if you change something about Time, wouldn't that make it Always So? Think more sideways than just the over-cynical and literal thought of "Akatosh doesn't matter, because Alessia made him".



Moving back to the OT: The dovah are, inferring from the few conversations we actually have with them, intricately bound to Time(/Akatosh). My main question is thus: Is Alduin the Firstborn of Akatosh the same way Auriel is the Firstborn of Auri-El is the Firstborn of Anu the Everything, or how Lorkhan is the Firstborn of Sithis is the Firstborn of Padomay? A fractal division of Big Daddy Dragon, whom, as the game (or at least Parthy-on-the-Mountain-Top) explicitly states somehow "shirked" his rightful role? Which ties into my previous point, at least a little bit. Akatosh IS real. Whether or not Alessia is to credit doesn't matter; He is Time, which means, from a linear perspective, he has always been Time. Lorkhan's children eventually found a trick, making it so that his "other half" (/enemy/antithesis) was sympathetic, had always been sympathetic, to Man.



*Side-note: I thought it was really interesting to hear how the Nords from the Dragon Wars reference a "Sister Hawk", which I thought was a clear reference to Kyne(areth). Anybody else get lore-jollies from that?

Good point

Pelinal Whitestrake was killed before Akatosh, as a political invention of Alessia was made, so him referencing a "Aka" shows some soft of already existing belief in him before hand.

Pelinal was a time warping terminator. He also shouted praises to Reman I, even though Reman wouldn't appear till another 2000 years. He was the combined being of Time and Space, and because of that, inherited the madness of time.

His praising of Reman comes from a book made by a "in universe" author. Stories of old heroes are often greatly embellished.

They even say at the beginning of The Song of Pelinal that they have no idea on the original source for the text. It is about as uncredable of a story as one can get.

Alduin has "always been" according to Paarhurnaax. http://www.imperial-library.info/content/skyrim-there-be-dragons They're et'ada. Now, in elven culture, the only difference between Auriel and his weakest servent is power. To men, the difference between Shor and a human is that one is a god and the other isn't.

The Ayleid's did not go extinct for hundreds of years after that. Hell, some helped Alessia take the city. The Alessian Order finished the job, and the only connection to Alessia they have is that their leader says Alessia's ghost told him to do it.

Akatosh, however, is probably the closest thing to his "real" name, considering cultures have no connection to Cyrodiil call him something similar, like Alkosh and Tosh Raka.

None the less, saying your from Akatosh is like saying your an elf king to a Nord.

Funny because in this link you provided.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/skyrim-there-be-dragons

It specifically says "There is no credible story of how dragons came to be"



Also I never said or implied a time-frame for when the Alyeids went extinct just that they did. However you said

Which they are not, because as I have pointed out before, the Alyieds have been extinct for hundreds of years. The Nords are not stopping anything.

The Dremora are our best source.

Yes, you did. You said it in response to my comment on the Nords helping the Nedes keep the IC, which implies around that time period. Otherwise, why mention it?

Edit: Were. Typo. I meant were helping the Nedes. Sorry.

Being the best source really doesn't make it in any way credible. Also considering that most of the Dremora work for Mehrunes Dagon makes them even less credible.



Furthermore "According to dremora that the College of Whispers have "questioned," they just were, and are. Eternal, immortal, unchanging, and unyielding."

We know from Skyrim they are not immortal, and that they can change, IE in the case of Paarhurnaax,

Yes. Let's ignore all lore, because it has a chance of being wrong.

They can only die permentantly when something eats their soul. Otherwise they can be restored. Unchanging did not mean in personality.

And how do you know Paarhurnaax was telling the truth?

I am not saying to ignore it, I am saying to not take everything as true just because some random guy said it.



Also death is death, the Dremora still lied either
A. Due to lack of knowledge on the subject
B. Because they are evil and untrustworthy
Either way it puts all his other statements into question.

In my experience, Dagon has been a fairly straight-forward Daedra. I see no reason why not to trust something he says, or that the Dremora say. They're proud, they're loud and angry, and they really would like to kill you. But they've never pretended otherwise.

Also, even when he has tried to lie, Dagon's proven to be really terrible at it. It's why he's not a Leaper Demon any more, after all.

Your argument works on the assumption that the Leaper Demon thing is true which is up for debate.

Bethesda has been known to take only bits and pieces of MK's works and leave out others.

And your argument still avoids the fact that the Dremora was wrong on at least one thing.

The last statement of my argument hinges on it being true. The rest of it (Dagon's natural guilelessness) is mostly an assumption made based upon his in-game representations, and official-lore sphere.

Regardless, even if Dagon were physically incapable of telling the truth, that would not mean the Dremora would be likewise; Sheogorath is as nutty as chunky peanut butter, but the Mazken and Aureal seem perfectly sane, linear-thinking beings who always wear their undergarments on the right side of their pants.

I never said that Dagon's ability, or lack there of, to lie means that the Dremora have the exact same tendencies.

All I ever stated was that due to their allegiance to Dagon they really cant be trusted.


As you point out before Dremora are prideful. Pride is a form of arrogance, and arrogance is quite often derived from willing ignorance.

The Dremora being prideful makes them terribly untrustworthy as they, being prideful, would feel that they are so much better then everyone and everything else that they really have no need to bother to check their information before spewing it.

Fact check? Why? They witnessed it. A daedra is an et'ada who did not perticipate in creation. Dremora #24950496459845954609 might have laughed at the Doom Drum's plans himself. Dragons are Aedra now (who survived the Dawn Era), and thus are bound to Mundus and the beliefs of the mortals. They aren't lying to be arrogant. If they're lying, they're making something up so they'd stop being tortured. Why do you think "questioned" is quoted?

Torture isn't a good way to get reliable information, though. But if a bunch of Dremora say more or less the same thing, then it's more likely to be true. If they're all lying, you'd get stuff like "Oh, Akatosh created them after Mundus was created!" and "they always existed" and thousands of other different answers.

At the very least, Ald was one of the first et'ada. "The Eldest" to be exact.

The books says so but they are usually only partially collect and never tell the whole story. Who and what Akatosh exactly is and with what forces Alessia consorted with are still a mystery.

Aka means dragon, IIRC.

Alternately, Akatosh could have been a name used to refer to the time god, but not the pro-Mundus deity we know now. Perhaps Cyrod's humans had some notion of him.

Also, Pelinal shouted the name 'Reman,' so chronology means nothing when it comes to his utterances.

What do you mean by schizophrenia in this context? That Alduin is a psychotic delusion, or?

As has been pointed out before The Song of Pelinal was written at a unknown time, at least 2519 years after Pelinal died and after Reman 1 came into power.

In game authors can hardly get events that happened 100 years ago right and you are seriously trying to take a book written about an event over 2000 years ago, at the time of writing, now nearly 4000, as correct?


There is no proof that Pelinal shouted Reman EVER. This sounds like another one of those "only those with the blood of alessia can wear the Amulet of Kings" embellishments created to make the Emperor look better.

So... Alduin is just a dragon that can be killed? I haven't completed the main quest so I don't want too many spoilers, but anticlimactic much?

As I said, I'm not anywhere near an expert on this subject; but I think that since we were in Sovngarde, which can be said to be Shor's realm, and we didn't absorb Alduin's soul when he died there - there's obviously something unusual going on. He's not just a dragon. I theorised that if Shor/Lorkhan and Alduin/Akatosh are aspects of the same god as has been talked about before, then maybe Akatosh absorbed Alduin's soul back into himself for the time being. Alduin wasn't a dragon, obviously, because the Dragonborn would have absorbed his soul if he was. So the soul must have gone somewhere. Perhaps Shor/Lorkhan absorbed the soul and we get closer to a change in the pantheon where Lorkhan is the head god, as I've heard people say stuff about here. I don't really have any knowledge in the subject, though, I'm just theorising.