It's stated a couple of times that Alduin is the first born creation from Akatosh or something along those lines. Paarthunax himself says it.

Yes, but the issue then arises, how is an artificially created god, who was invented in the first era which was well after The Dawn, Merethic and a few hundred years in the first era, the real deal? And then there's Auriel, who does NOT like Mundus, and is a champion of Mer.

The only explanation I can come up with at this point is Dragon Break, but that's a complete and utter cop-out and a misuse of what was done in The Warp of the West, and the ascension of the Tribunal. It's seriously looking to look exactly like a Mannimarco Moment.

Ald son of Ald. What do you think Shor son of Shor meant by that? A mantled version created by Ald (the Dragon God of Time). The Khajiit call him Alkosh and the Akaviri call him Tosh Raka. Are they wrong because it sounds similar to what the Cyrodiils call him?

I never read Shor son of Shor. My head kept spinning.

Or perhaps they're all fake. The Nords thought up Alduin The World-Eater because of the Dragon War and their fear that the dragons were going to come back and end everything. The Altmer thought up Auri-El because they hate Mundus and need someone to look at and say "see, he could do it!" Cyrodiils thought up Akatosh because they wanted an Empire that had time on its side.

They're all equally fake, given real power by the mortals that believe in them, and all bound to the concept called "time". Perhaps Mankar was on to something after all. Powerful liars, indeed.

That...makes sense.

Well that's how it is. Except that all three spirits are predicated on the dead Time God who ripped out the heart of the dead Space God. It is only inaccurate shorthand when we call those spirits Akatosh and Lorkhan, as that suggests that some of their latter-day forms are 'correct.'

We have to remember that the games are always from a point of view. It's easy to always meta view things on the forum, But in- game is only nordic.

In this case alduin is still the world eater. It is hinted at several times that he either: is for some reason not as strong as he should be, or; never actually was.

Personally... I think he is whatever the nords make him to be.

*cough*themarukhatisuceeded*cough*

This is a favored interpretation, that I was quite content with (even figured the whole Akatosh bit in Oblivion was just Martin manipulating a certain Earthbone/Chim-el Adabal to get the result we perceive at the end, added to the whole "Akatosh is Shezarr who put Alessia in the Amulet" deal to explain that part away...), but then we have this whole kalpa problem that really screws everything up. It implies that Akatosh is still a very active force that periodically comes alive and remakes the world. We figured that was all going to be explained with Alduin. Now Alduin is a literal, giant lizard. The only way it makes sense is... more mantling. However, we have no text or hint that that is occuring (except maybe Shor son of Shor).

Something seems to be missing.



I haven't argued for that one in over a year. As I recall, there is more evidence to hint that their attempt failed after making a 1008-year mess, the 'stars fell back to earth', and everything snapped back into its original form. We may have been wrong, of course.

*slams head on desk* You damn dirty ape followers!

He's the first born of Akatosh, nothing more and nothing less.

Now go find me someone who actually knows what that means.

I have a hard time picturing Akatosh reproducing.

Ald son of ald?

If Akatosh is, always has been, and always will be the sole real time god, I agree, that'd be totally lame, but just because something was a god in a past Kalpa / the very start of this one, doesn't mean he has to be a god right now. If TES has taught us anything, its that divine status is always in flux. According to the Boethiah letters, Trinimalacath wasn't a god last time around, so whose to say the reverse didn't happen to Alduin?

All I know is, I clearly didn't actually kill the first spirit, the dragon god of time, and hard as it may be, there must be a way for this to fit.


It makes no cool, but it makes sense. Religious texts can be false, y'know.

Because I'd rather have an insane dragon of time, as has been hinted for quite a long time, than the sudden "lol, just a dragon."

To be honest, I find the answer svcks a ton too, but then again, I get the feeling I'm going to not like most if not any answer.

Agreed on both counts (especially the second one) but I guess we just get what we get.

Alduin is the first-born of Akatosh

I've always thought that the Akatosh variants were each culture's take on deified time. Nords viewed time as a world-destroyer, Altmer viewed it as a force tricked into becoming a method of degradation, etc. So could it be that Alduin is no longer time to the Nords? Displaced by Akatosh and downgraded to Big Bad?

Tell me if this makes no sense at all, because I'm not a lore expert, but maybe Akatosh is still a manufactured God, and Alduin is also, but both were created from an earlier God of time that the Nords have since forgotten or renamed Akatosh like the Imperials. Does that make sense? And even if it does, is that something you haven't already heard of and I'm not completely misunderstanding the argument here?

I want to pull the postmodern perspective card here and say that most of our lore comes from mortals. Perhaps the Nords don't even have a full grasp on the relationship between Akatosh and Alduin.

EDIT: After reading over some of the arguments here, I think we'll have to settle for a tenuous creed of "Akatosh is Akatosh; Alduin is Alduin" and leave it at that. I don't know if we have enough resources to get anymore specific.

EDIT#2: ... disregard my first edit... The matter definitely demands more debate.

EDIT#3: Until we get more details on how Alduin "fell" from grace (or even if he did fall from grace) I'm not sure we can resolve this.

Not really. Akatosh is an invented god...of time.

Is it really that hard to believe that he could have had sons before he existed?
Akatosh has caused people to give birth to their parents before.

What if Auri-El became Akatosh?

I remember an elf from the Knight if the Nine questline that joined up to take up arms for Akatosh. What is interesting is that he then said:

"Well, we call him Auri-El back home, but it's the same thing here."

The Imperial Pantheon may have changed more things than just the political landscape. Elves in Valenwood and Summerset Isle growing up would be exposed to a new form of the Time God, one who doesn't destroy Mundus, but protects all. It would seem that that line of thinking got a lot of converts in the elven lands. Since Belief=Reality, the Imperial Doctrine may have altered Auri-El himself and mellowed him out.

So when Alduin says his father is Akatosh, he really means Auri-El (or both). The reason he used the name Akatosh is because most players are probably more familiar with that name for the Time God than Auri-El, which is more obscure.

It might also explain why Akatosh, who loves Mundus, would create a dragon who wants to swallow it whole. If he created Alduin, why create the Dovahkiin to oppose and stop him? Auri-El created Alduin, then got mellowed out and became Akatosh.

Auri-El went the way of Paarthanax.

Alduin said that he was the first creation of akatosh and leader of the dragons, so my guess is after mundus was created akatosh created alduin to rule over nirn and sent dragons to serve him, Alduin the enslaved all of man (weather or not this was akatosh's intention i don't know as the reasoning of the gods is beyond mortal comprehension) and i think you know the rest of the story. As for Auri-el, he and akatosh are the same being, just with two different faces since akatosh did come from Auri-el when Alessia created the Alessian order.