It occurred to me that the Akatosh--Alduin--Auri-El schizophrenic-dragon-god-of-time thing isn't quite dead yet, even with the story going as it is.

As Paarthurnax said, Alduin was "Akatosh's Firstborn" and Alduin as well says that he is an "Aspect of Akatosh". (I say Akatosh and I imagine the game says Akatosh not because they mean the Cyrodiilic entity but the Et'Ada Alduin/Auri-El rather than the dragon Alduin) I take this to mean several things. Do recall that the Aedra as a whole cannot directly act on the Mundus as Daedra can, and when they do, it's typically through some vessel (A Shezarrine, the blessings of priests and shrines) or avatar (Wulf and the other avatars of the Nine in Morrowind are fine examples). So what if Alduin was enforcing Akatosh's will as an aspect of him? The ability to bring dragons back from the dead not via necromancy but as if they had never died thing is not only defying Arkay's sphere, it goes and defies Akatosh's own sphere by essentially rolling back the cycle of time for a set being.


As for the Dragonborn? That could be Akatosh's other schizophrenic half, another Shezarrine (which I prefer, as Lorkhan is referred to in some stories as a dragon as well, and in most religions, Akatosh has replaced Lorkhan and even now Talos as the guardian of Men), or what-have-you. Mythic forces of belief-is-power, and mass belief of Akatosh's current role in the pantheon, could indeed reshape the actions of gods to oppose themselves. Note that there are still a few people that follow the Old Gods of Skyrim, but they are few in number and religion is largely Imperialized by 4E201

Not really. Shor is still (rather obviously, IMO) the most prominent god in Skyrim. The Temple of Mara in Riften seems to be dedicated to her Nordic aspect, still being Kyne's handmaiden. The priest that mentions this is a Redguard, which shows that the Old Holds (aside from Ysmir being called Talos. No idea why Bethesda did that) follow their Old Gods enough to assimilate non-Nords.

Most Imperial gods seem restricted to Soltidue, in my experience. Akatosh, from what I've seen, is only mentioned by the horse thief and dragons. Haven't heard anything about Zentihar aside from an Amulet, or those guys who hunt Daedra for Stendarr or somethin'. Kynareth is still connected to Thu'um, so the Nordic Kynareth seems to be a combination of the Nordic Kyne and the Imperial Kynareth.

Dibella seems to be the same in both religions.

The way I interpreted the events of Skyrim, was that Alduin was sent forward in time by the three hero's when they used the Scroll. Thus creating the time wound, this is why Paarthurnax was waiting in that very spot for Alduins return.

If we are fighting a dragon from another time, is it not possible that Alduin simply exists in another time frame, instead of being destroyed?

I think Bethesda was quite clearly trying to push away the duality, which is why I'm hesitant to believe that they really are the same being, but at the same time, firstborn could mean 'firstborn aspect'- the beginning of time must, by nature, include an end of time.

Godlike entities in TES only have power when they have a role to play though, don't they? Couldn't it be possible that Alduin was defeated by the Dragonborn because Alduin's power failed him because it was not quite time for the world to be eaten? It's possible that the Elder Scrolls themselves dictate the power of time-related gods (Akatosh/Alduin/Auriel), as the Scrolls are fundamentally related to time itself (metaphysical yet physical manifestations of events that have occured, will occur, and may occur).

This is just wild guessing on my part, as I have yet to fully wrap my head around the lore. But from what I've seen, the TES Lore board is pretty much Wild Mass Guessing: The Forum with a specific topic.

My own humble interpritation of the events in the game:


Time = Akatosh/Au-riel -Alduin is Akatosh incarnate on Nirn.

Mortality= Lorkhan/Shor -PC is Shor incarnate on Nirn (further confirmed when the heroes of Sovngarde are not allowed to fight Alduin under Shor's command, yet when the PC arrives they are allowed - My opinion)



So it boils down to simply 'Time vs Mortality', that age old struggle ever present in any religion or lore wether it be real world or fantasy.



I believe we have just witnessed the start of the 5th era/age, where Akatosh has for the time being been displaced by Shor as the chief diety. This sets the scene for the coming war between Man and the Altmer, who hate Shor more than even Talos.




EDIT: I almost forgot to mention that is always Shor/Lorkhan who leads Man against the Aldmeri throughout the ages. Plus you only have to look at the imagery Bethesda has chosen for this game. You can look at the very background of this forum. Who is that depicting?

I guess that works. Still don't like how Alduin is nothing more than a super dragon, but a good idea nonetheless.

That's all Akatosh was in Oblivion though.

But he IS more than just a Dragon. He is the world eater and first born to Akatosh. From where I sit I'd say that's pretty big. What else could ya want?

As I said in my post, he's more than just a super dragon. He's able to bring dragons back to life--not via necromancy--but as if they'd never died. Which not only craps over Arkay's sphere, it demonstrates a mastery of "time" (essentially, rolling it back for said dragons to a time when they were living) in a way that only Akatosh should have. Which makes sense, as he is Akatosh's avatar.

That was an avatar. In Skyrim, there's nothing behind it.

He's not the World Eater because a little bitty dragon can't eat the world. What was he intending to do with himself, anyway?

Whether people like it or not, what we got in Skyrim was Alduin.

In Skyrim, it's an avatar too.

And it seems to be his intent to ravage the world with ever-living dragons whilst eating the souls of the living as they die. A metaphorical "eating of the world."

Perhaps "world-devour" doesn't mean the physical devouring of the world. If you get rid of beings capable of rational thought both in life and in death, and you also rid the world of their records and histories, what's left? The concept of "nothing" wouldn't exist until one of the remaining species of creatures (assuming non-rational beings were allowed to live) evolved enough to start defining concepts and ideas.

Alduin "eats" everything. Paarthurnax vaguely suggests he ends Time. Literally. The dragons, who see time differently due to their connection to Akatosh, "cannot see passed Time's end."

Maybe after getting enough soul power, he devours Akatosh then Mundus?

Silly me, I'm still under the impression that time is entirely artificial. If you consider that time is a mortal construct, rather than a force of nature or a god, then my conclusion makes sense.

This. Discussing semantics as to how exactly he ends the kalpa if he's just a small dragon doesn't get us anywhere. We can just accept that he was going to. Because of obvious parallels between Nord mythology's and Norse (aka Valhalla/Sovngarde, etc.), we can compare it to Ragnorak where it's said that Fenrisúlfr (Fenrir)'s lower jaw "will go forth with his mouth opened wide, his upper jaw touching the sky and his lower jaw the earth." Fenrir in all depictions is just a wolf - large, but not that large - and indeed is killed by Odin's son, but Fenrir in the prophecies was going to be the one to eat the world nonetheless.

It is a god and a force of nature. But it's something has has been intentionally imposed on Nirn, so it is artificial, in the sense that it's an artifice.

I'm pretty sure that somewhere along the end of the mainquest in Skyrim, it is said that "with every soul that Alduin eats, he becomes more powerful", suggesting what we got was not the full force Alduin.

Contrary to what the book says ingame about "Akatosh is Akatosh, and he ent Alduin" Alduin is infact the avatar Akatosh. The book mentioned, is simply the musings of a simple man (the clue is in his writing style) trying to reconcile his beliefs taught to him by his ancestors with what in stark reality is really happening.


The question is, why has Akatosh/Alduin decided to end Nirn now? I think the answer and motive can be found in these lines from lore:

"9. Akatosh says: Serve and obey your Emperor. Study the Covenants. Worship the Nine, do your duty, and heed the commands of the saints and priests." -The Ten Commands of the Nine Divines
"But if the Empire should slacken in its dedication to the Nine Divines, or if the blood of Alessia's heirs should fail, then shall the barriers between Tamriel and the Daedric realms fall, and Daedra-worshippers might summon lesser Daedra and undead spirits to trouble the races of men." -Amulet of Kings


Now, is Akatosh (lover of Elves, hater of Nirn) manipulating things, so that he can finally get his vengeance on Shor (as can be seen in 'Shor son of Shor' there is a very uneasy truce between Akatosh and Shor) and finally bring about the end of Nirn. Afterall it's his most dedicated followers (The Aldmeri) that are bringing about the outlawing of Talos, hence the breaking of the covenant (worship of the nine) between Man and Akatosh (as seen above). Why were they so content with the White/Gold Concordat when at the time they were in a very healthy position? Is it because they knew that the covenant would be broken, hence Akatosh would unleash his wrath on Nirn, bringing about the end, which would fufil their ultimate goal and end mortality? I think so. This whole thing stinks of Akatosh's justification to bring about the end time.


As I said in my earlier post, that leaves only one possibilty of whom the PC represents in Skyrim. I look forward to the expansion and leading the men of Tamriel against the Aldmeri, then to go off wandering again... B)

It isn't quite a Mannimarco moment. It'd be a Mannimarco moment if he turned out to be an Argonian in tattered robes.

Easy. They haven't. Or rather, the former hasn't. They are the same god, but they are opposed to each other.

Akatosh couldn't have told us to worship the Nine Divines back when there were only eight.



Show me one source where he is either of those things. Akatosh is a de-clawed Auriel, on humanity's side.


I don't see it anywhere. The books I've read all point to Talos as the important deity here.

What I don't understand - well, I don't understand a lot of things, but this is troubling me the most: On the one hand, Alduin is the World-Eater, the Time-Ender, devouring the souls of the living and the dead. But on the other hand, he seeks to enslave all mortals with his dragon army ("You would have made a good slave" or something like that). Why? Why enslave the joore, to what end or purpose? What could they possibly do for the dov they can't do themselves? And how do you enslave something you are about to destroy?
You can't eat your cake and have it, Alduin!

The reasons behind his actions are all over the place, and none is given any explanation. Apparently eating the world wasn't bad enough for Skyrim's big baddie.

What if destroying the world, isn't meant literal. What if it's more like killing all the beings on it. Without any mortals on the world, then the Gods would lose their power and existence, because apparantly gods can be created by what people believe. Destroying the world, destroying the gods and thus reseting time and the world to before it's creation?

In that case having an army of dragons would be a good and useful thing, at the same time having slaves to fight some of your battles for you would be as well. First kill all humans with your dragon and slave army and then kill the slaves...

I could live with that explanation, if Alduin didn't seem to pursue a real, literal regency, either over his fellow dov or over the mortals. There is no indication that Alduin sought to destroy the world back before the dragon wars. Apparently the dov were quite content with how things were, so when and why did the destruction of creation become part of their agenda? :shrug:

Well quite clearly he/them has, as can be seen in the events ingame. Regardless if part of the duality doesn't want that to happen.




Those quotes I wrote are directly from books, if you read amulet of kings again, it's not just the part I quoted that reinforces what I said. So how then did it happen? Akatosh definetly says nine, even when they were only eight.




Here is just one, there are many more suggestions: "Cyrodiilic "Shezarr's Song"

"This was a new thing that Shezarr described to the Gods, becoming mothers and fathers, being responsible, and making great sacrifices, with no guarantee of success, but Shezarr spoke beautifully to them, and moved them beyond mystery and tears. Thus the Aedra gave free birth to the world, the beasts, and the beings, making these things from parts of themselves. This free birth was very painful, and afterwards the Aedra were no longer young, and strong, and powerful, as they had been from the beginning of days.

"Some Aedra were disappointed and bitter in their loss, and angry with Shezarr, and with all creation, for they felt Shezarr had lied and tricked them. These Aedra, the Gods of the Aldmer, led by Auri-El, were disgusted by their enfeebled selves, and by what they had created. 'Everything is spoiled, for now, and for all time, and the most we can do is teach the Elven Races to suffer nobly, with dignity, and chastise ourselves for our folly, and avenge ourselves upon Shezarr and his allies.' Thus are the Gods of the Elves dark and brooding, and thus are the Elves ever dissatisfied with mortality, and always proud and stoic despite the harshness of this cruel and indifferent world." -The Monomyth

Akatosh is a de-clawed Au-Riel? Akatosh and Au-Riel are one and the same. It is just the name given to him by two different races. I think the Men of Tamriel like to think he's on their side now, but I think they are gravely mistaken.





What books? Here? Where is here? Who is Talos really?




I'll say it again, in more clear terms. I believe what we are seeing ingame during Skyrim, is the renewed battle between Akatosh and Lorkhan. Time vs Mortality, as suggested at in 'Shor son of Shor'. Akatosh vs Shor, Alduin vs PC, Aldmeri vs Men.