Both Agneir and Paarhurnaax treat Alduin's defeat during the Dragon Wars as a delay of the end of the world.

Auriel was broken by the selective, time itself was smashed, and the elven parts of Akatosh were removed. Thats what I think he means by Akatosh being a de-clawed Auriel.

I think many people are taking the books of Skyrim too literally. They're books, opinions, propoganda, but not facts. Definately not facts. Paticularly those that relate to creation.

Oh, I was looking through some old posts I wrote back in Oblivion time and came across this, which may or may not be relevent

Everything begins with three, Nirn, Anu and Padomey
Nirn became Kyne, Anu became Ariel, Padomy became Lorkhan
Kyne became Kyneath, Ariel became Akatosh, Lorkhan became Shezzar
*Akatosh became Tiber Septim, Shezzar became the Underking*
Martin Septim became Akatosh, and vanished from the world, tipping the power back into Shezzar's favour
Akatosh represents status, the monarchy, order
Shezzar represents change, freedom,
Akatosh represents the Past, the Empire
Shezzar represents the Future, the Intenigrum
it is a cyclical motion, in the chaos of Intenigrum it is Shezzar who is powerful, with the order of empire, it is Akatosh who is powerful

Perhaps I am missing some important part of the lore where this is mentioned, could you point me in the right direction please?




Well the books are the only snippets we have got, that we can use to work out what the hell is going on. It's not a case of being too literal, it's a case of using the best and only evidence we have.

The morrowind era book, http://imperial-library.info/content/where-were-you-when-dragon-broke-complete-version
This is the complete version, rather than the incomplete version that was in Morrowind.

Where is there any evidence of Akatosh being on Alduin's side? I haven't played that game, but I'm betting there isn't any.



Those are secondary sources, written thousands of years after the fact by people who weren't there. Akatosh obviously didn't use those exact words. And that parcel of Oblivion books about the Covenant is in part pro-Septim propaganda.



You are missing some very basic facts here. Auri-el and Akatosh are independent aspects of the Time God. They are simultaneously separate and synonymous. Auriel's personality is the opposite of Akatosh's. Auriel already ascended from this world, Akatosh fortifies it.

As explained here:



The Book of the Dragonborn. Skyrim's lore is rather silent on the current status of Akatosh. But Talos is all over the place metaphysically and politically.





That can all happen without that participation of the strangely compiled chief of the Alessia pantheon. A god created by worshipers can't suddenly turn into something different and betray them.

Alduin is under no such constraints. When he calls himself a son of Akatosh, he is referring to former kalpas, before Alessia and her coup. He is referring to the pre-creation Time God, who out of a certain Cyrodilic bias we also call Akatosh. But Akatosh during the Dawn is very different from Akatosh after the fall of White-Gold.

Thanks Shardieine, but it's a bit vague on wether the ritual was a sucess or not. It rather seems like it wasn't.

Sonic, they may well be secondary, but since we don't have access to any primary sources (except MK himself), then it's all we have got to go on. If we don't, an we use assumptions, it's called "baseless conjecture", much of which you have written is so. Sorry.

I forgot to point out the KotN documents in my post. Those are more contemporary sources, containing what appears to be Pelinal's words at Alessia's deathbed. It shows you what the Convenant really was.


Don't try the old saw "I don't have to engage in discussion because we both don't really know anything." I mean, come one, it's common sense that Akatosh didn't tell Alessia about nine divines. That doesn't even need to be argued.

We don't deal in baseless conjecture but valid argument, based on material that was meant to be interpreted. The writers don't throw out random [censored] for us to make wild guesses, they write with intention of communicating ideas and having us draw conclusions. There is a very real element of uncertainty, contradiction and alternate possibilities, but it is badly, badly overblown by the community.

I am very confident that I understand the intended vision behind how the Aedric gods function. I don't claim that this is definitely correct, but I do think that if my views are mistaken, it is due to differing visions between various writers and execution within individual games, as opposed to misreading of source material.

Fair enough Sonic, I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this, as the writings, as you say are dependant on one's interpretation. We'll just have to wait and see what happens in the long run. I'm still holding to the thought that Akatosh is going to turn on man, as man was Shor's creation.

I do support the idea that Alduin is not Akatosh YET. Possibly after he eats al the souls, he gains enough power to devour Akatosh himself, absorbs Akatosh's soul, and thus becomes Akatosh.

He then recreates the world in what he believes is his own imagining, and creates Dragons, including his firstborn son, Alduin, and thus th cycle begins again.

I like this idea. It elegantly ties in a lot of pre-and-post Skyrim lore so neatly that it feels truthy.

Want me to sum up Skyrim from what I've played so far? Here you go. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNOExDrsdbg

Half the game seems to be going through various legends and tales of ancient times and discovering the dark secrets of how people lied and cheated their way to positions of power.

Gods are not gods. Kings are not kings. The only straightforward group in the game seems to be the Daedric Princes.

So true.
A lot of bothersome contradictions in pieces of lore...

The thing is, unless Alduin served as an ally, the Nordic pantheon spends it's time fighting other pantheons. Such as the Aldmeri.

Akatosh, as most know him, did not exist until Alessia realized that the Nords would withdraw their support at best, or at worst attack them for worshiping Aldmeri gods. That is, the anti-Mundus Dragon God of Time. The book about Akatosh and Alduin was written in the last first era, well after the Nine Divines began to influence Nord culture. Paarhanaak has nothing to do with Nord's liking Akatosh, as I've heard a lot of people say.

So, who would they lie about Alduin being? Auriel? An enemy god? Akatosh did not exist at that point. Saying your the Dragon God of Time back then, especially to Nords, meant "I am the Lord of the Aldmeri." which is just about the worst thing you could be to a Nord. If they are ruled by an Elf God, why hate elves? Unless the books are wrong about when the Dragon War takes place. Then he have even more reasons for elf-hate.

If Alduin is not Auriel, then he is who? Remember, "Akatosh" does not exist yet. What Dragon God of Time is he lying about being?

I think the Aldudagga may be our best reference. The Nords hold "the Dragon" in reverence (911th Cow); a Nord is not allowed to curse the World-Devourer. The Time-God is bound to the world, and an essential part of Shor's creation. The kalpa cycle is a natural force, just the same as the animals we see the Skaal/early Nords worshipping as part of their reverence for the Mundus in general.

Finally, notice something: "At the End of Seasons, we will know him as Thartaag the World-Devourer. But in these ages he came to be known as the Greedy Man." - Aevar Stone-Singer

Here, the Greedy Man is clearly Alduin. Yet in the Aldudaggas, the Greedy Man is clearly Lorkhan ("I'd better hide under my mountain", and all that). Add this to Pelinal's duality ("our shared madness"/"our faces which eat each other in amnesia each age"), as an example. In short, once he was bound to the world, Alduin either is Lorkhan in a bizarre, 'mirrors', Two-Headed Dragon/Ruling King fashion, or at the very least is a key part of Lorkhan's plan/creation. The Nords recognize this, even while they fight the part of Alduin which left/tries to leave, and his followers.

Alduin actually calls himself the firstborn son of Akatosh in game. Boom.

^^ Another son of Akatosh (in some sources) is Arkay... Arkay is, according to the Varieties of Faith, not worshiped in Skyrim; but Aldurn is. Akatosh's absence could be because they do not support worship of their greatest enemy. Arkay's role is death and rebirth. Death of one world, rebirth of a new world...

makes you think, eh?

I don't think so. I'm not gonna jump to far fetched conclusions just to complicate things.

And in Morrowind we get three different accounts of the events at Red Mountain. Also, show me a god who doesn't speak in metaphor and poetry and I'll show you a liar.

OK, I haven't been reading much of this topic, and my knowledge of Akatosh is extremely basic, but;

When we kill Alduin we're in Sovngarde, which is described as being Shor's realm of sorts. When Alduin dies, we don't absorb his soul. Now, aren't there loads of theories about Akatosh/Alduin/etc and Shor/Lorkhan/etc being the same god? Then couldn't Sovngarde be another of this fragmented god's realms (another is Nirn), and Alduin is simply the representation of what's left of his mortal side (or his "evil" side; I mean, mortality in its most extreme form entails a lust for power, and destruction is very much a concept unique to mortality/things temporary)? So bit by bit we remove this god's mortal side (destroying the Heart, killing Alduin)? Or at least pushes that side back? If we don't absorb his soul, then maybe Akatosh absorbed it back into himself?

I'm just theorising wildly without much knowledge on the matter, but since we don't absorb Alduin's soul, it seems like he's more than just a dragon who happens to have an Akatosh connection. I mean, dragons are a unique and intelligent race, so couldn't a dragon be a Shezzarine just as well as a human could?


EDIT: And here's a quote from... uh, me in Skyrim: "Some say Alduin is Akatosh. Some say M'aiq is a Liar. Don't you believe either of those things."

Correctly if I'm wrong, but during the main quest, I think Paarthurnax says that Alduin is Akatosh's first born son or something like that. So could this mean that Alduin was the first Dragon created by Akatosh? I'm no lore expert, so I am probable way off.

That would be the most logical answer but some seem to want to try to make it far more complex then it actually is.

I think Paarthurnax also claims to be a child of Akatosh. Are they both lying or talking in metaphor?

Alduin was the FIRST child of Akatosh, Paarthurnax never claimed to be the first child of Akatosh.

It need not be a lie or metaphor.

Problem is that "a child of a god" is a bit too vague and weird not to be a metaphor. It doesn't feel like an Aedra would give birth to something in the regular sense of the word, but rather a "child" would be an aspect of the god - or a bit of schizophrenia.

The Khajiit believe that Azura made their race from the formless man/beat spirits.

I don't see why Akatosh doing something similar to make Dragons is so far fetched.