And you had turned around so well. You are just wrong, here. http://www.imperial-library.info/content/etada-eight-aedra-eat-dreamer was written to discuss this. This relationship had previously been discussed in http://imperial-library.info/ForumArchives/AmuletAmulet.html, a thread in which Michael Kirkbride posted out of character. The money quote, in plain language:

I haven't heard that anology before but I think it is a very well put together one. Kudos

Well, as long as the English Language remains, some things cannot be confused or distorted by interpretation.


Let us allow the Monomyth to speak:





Did you all hear that? After Akatosh forms Mephala and the rest crystallize. Others remain as concepts including a barely formed urge called Lorkhan.

Read my lips, a barely formed urge...

While Akatosh is formed, Lorkhan is barely formed. Simply grammar, it cannot be twisted.


Altmeri Version



Again Auriel comes first establishes time, and then Magnus, Mara and Lorkhan follow...

I just quoted a post by the person who wrote The Monomyth. :rolleyes:

My brother, the grammar speaks for itself. It is in interpretation that mistakes are made..

You're reading the beginning of the story. The 'tangling up' being spoken of here happens later.

edit:grammar

Mon frère, mi hermano, mein Bruder, surely you would not claim that your reading of those words is better than that of the person who put them to paper. I think he knows a little bit more about what he meant by them than you do.

I think it's incorrect to try and put some cause and effect wherein Akatosh precedes Lorkhan. The two are equal opposites; regardless of some stated sequence of events they came into existence equally and simultaneously. The one is meaningless without the other.
Grammar is effectively irrelevant when dealing with these concepts. It's a clumsy tool for imperfect expression. And when concerned with a framework of time, of course Aka must 'come first'. But that says nothing for a perspective beyond linear time.



Akatosh is not more senior than Lorkhan; He doesn't predate his brother. That can't be used as an argument against their sameness.

This is the sort of statement that just isn't helpful in clarifying these things.

Michael Kirkbride has also discussed Akatosh and Lorkhan in terms of "if" and "then," words which are consistent with The Monomyth's description; what vilnii does not understand is that Lorkhan being a reaction to Akatosh does not preclude Lorkhan from being the same as Akatosh. It also can't be ignored that The Monomyth was intentionally written from a limited perspective, and its fictional 'writer' wouldn't have known the true relationship between Akatosh and Lorkhan. "et'Ada, Eight Aedra, Eat the Dreamer" and Michael Kirkbride himself are certainly both better authorities on this than The Monomyth is.

I overstated.
What I mean is that grammar is necessarily a sort of form and order; and that in this context those two things didn't exist before the event of creation (if I understand correctly). So it's a tad meaningless to try to establish grammatical relations of cause and effect for a state in which those things did not exist.
It's entirely possible that I'm spouting nonsense, in which case I apologize.

So you're using a bunch of in-game texts written by a biased author over the guy who wrote the texts from outside the game?

Thank you very much for your help! Now I understood the connection between Akatosh and Lorkhan. I just hadn't read Pelinal lore. %)
So the situation is very close to that of Shivering Isles, don't you think? As Sheogorath/Jyggalg directly descended from Lorkhan/Akatosh. But wasn't Shezzarine, I think.

Is that because Tiber became Lorkhan which is the mirror image of Akatosh? (Enti something however it's called)?

Enantiomorph.
An enantiomer is a a molecule that is a mirror-image of another molecule; you picked your wording well.

Good to see I'm putting my knowledge in Chemistry in good use xD

But Lorkhan and Akatosh are enantiomers right? Were they always that or did one of them make that happen? (Because it is a way of walking, so I guess there is a certain procedure)

Since it's a way of walking, how exactly does it happen? How do you become a mirror image of something? (and don't say Magic =_=)

What if someone said magic but got more specific? Would that be palatable?

Although, one thing to remember is that since Akatosh is Time, he isn't stuck into a point in it, that means that everything he is he always has been and always will be and vice versa. So, since he was Alduin in the past he is Alduin now, and will be in the future, but since he became Akatosh at one point he had always been Akatosh as well, and always would be (maybe). And since he enantinomorph-ed with Shor that means he was always Shor (or however you see fit to phrase the effects of enantinomorph).

You'll get a different answer for different questions.

Fighting another, your mirror, for the same cause. It looks like this:
Nirn (Female/Land/Freedom catalyst for birth-death of enantiomorph)/ Anu-Padomay (enantiomorph with requisite betrayal)/ ?* (Witnessing Shield-thane who goes blind or is maimed and thus solidifies the wave-form; blind/maimed = = final decision)

*Seek and you shall find. I hid it.

First you need a Nirn figure, then you need two who want the Nirn figure. Finally, you need a martyr, a witness to the reality of the conflict (the maiming).

I mean don't just say it was magic, explain what sort of magic and how that kind of magic happens

So how do you enantiomorph?

And I know being an enantiomorph means, but how do you become a mirror image of someone? Does it mean a complete opposite or does it mean "Akatosh" but where right is left and left is right (like in a mirror)?

And how did Tiber become Lorkhan and Akatosh then? Is it because Lorkhan is an enantiomorph of Akatosh or did Tiber do something else to also become Akatosh? or is that what caused Akatosh and Lorkhan to become enantiomorphs (Tiber becoming both)?

I'd say Rasu has it well enough. In the most absolutely simple terms I can manage, you need two rivals, a goal, and a witness. The two rivals become so wholly defined by their goal that they become indistinguishable to the witness, and since belief is reality in TES, that means they are indistinguishable, at least at that moment.

Because Anu and Padomay existed before there was time, they are indistinguishable but still distinct because there was no linearity to enforce it on anyone who came after. Since the next set of them was Auriel and Shor, one being time and the other space, they were also not bound by linear time (or became Space-Time as we understand it, I'm a little fuzzy on that actually). Since every enantinomorph after becomes one or the other of them, they stay themselves while becoming the other.

Don't want to sound stupid here,but here goes.

Doesn't the fact that the Aedra have the mixed blood of padomay and anu,say/or could say why akatosh/lorkhan are one and the same maybe. Lorkhan is aedra....right?
Which means everything has mixed blood...like the stereo typical : Good and bad. If i remember right,it's only the daedra that have the blood of padomy.
Hope this makes sense.

You've asked a lot of questions like this and by 'like this' I mean wrong ones. This isn't your fault, but it is interesting because I notice that everyone keeps trying too answer them, when they shouldn't be because wrong questions can't have right answers.

What's also interesting is that I don't know how to explain to you what's so wrong. Let me try:

This isn't like learning how to ride a bike. To take a story I'm sure you know, you wouldn't ask how you become Gandalf, would you? We're not talking about real life or even a facsimile of real life, we're talking about a story. In this story there is a repeating pattern which is called the 'enantiomorph.' There are valid questions to ask about it: 'What is it? What is its significance? Why has the author chosen to repeat this pattern?' These questions will put you on a more productive line of thought.

You can't build without bricks. All that story convention stuff is meaningless if you don't know what the conventions in the first place, which is why there are no wrong/stupid questions. Otherwise it's like listening to academics teaching a writing class: pointless.

Nope.

The whole Anuic/Padomaic blood is really not as important as the people of Tamriel tend to assume, since they try very hard to put things in categories, which is just something people seem hard-wired to do. The only practical difference is that Aedra took place in the creation of a single world together and are therefore finite (though still largely more complex than what the average human mind could grasp), while Daedra have only their own realms inside which they are the absolute but are significantly depleted anywhere else.

So, the Aedra/Daedra conventions really have little to do with the entnatinomorph thing, or any of the major interaction with the mortal world.

EDIT: Well, that's not wholly true, there are other distinctions, but they don't have much to do with this particular discussion.

To be a little kinder to TengenToppa, I'll restate my post. There are wrong questions. This isn't because of what Toppa calls "that story convention stuff," but because "How do you enantiomorph?" is as fundamentally wrong a question as "How do you elf?" Similarly, "Can you mantle a Daedric Prince?" is as wrong as "Can you mantle White-Gold City?" They demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of these ideas.

TengenToppa may have noticed that the first of my suggested "right questions" was "What is an enantiomorph?" something I would find difficult to accept as falling under "that story convention stuff."