Akatosh/Alduin in Skyrim : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:47 pm

Oblivion info: According to the Mythic Dawn, Dagon doesn't want to destroy/invade Tamriel. He want to get it back, because it's the former Daedric realm of Prince Lorkhan that was stolen by the "filthy" Aedra. There is no information about how truthful these beliefs are.

Although, http://www.imperial-library.info/content/fight-one-eating-birth-dagon is probably a better source to know why Dagon is doing what he is doing. He just want to jump again.

Camoran didn't seem like the most reliable source though, I personally think that Dagon was probably looking for Tharn (from Arena) or felt that since Tharn promised him Tmriel, he felt he should have it?

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:12 am

Also, is there any evidence that Alduin and Akatosh are the same deity? Akatosh was merely the Imperial version of Auri-El, the same way Alduin is the Nordic version of him. Just because Alessia (or whoever) said they were the same, in order to reconcile the Nordic and Imperial religions, does that mean that the Aedra changed too? Akatosh and Alduin seem pretty different.

From Shezarr and the Divines:

"...concessions were made and Empress Alessia instituted a new religion: the Eight Divines, an elegant, well-researched synthesis of both pantheons, Nordic and Aldmeri. Shezarr, as a result, had to change. He could no longer be the bloodthirsty anti-Aldmer warlord of old. He could not disappear altogether either, or the Nords would have withdrawn their support of her rule. In the end, he had become "the spirit behind all human undertaking." Even though this was merely a thinly-disguised, watered-down version of Shor, it was good enough for the Nords."

If they changed Shor/Shezarr, was he really changing or were the priests merely saying that he did? And if they did, what would stop them from changing Akatosh/Alduin to suit their needs?

My thoughts on this:

Originally, I thought gods were false in TES. The same way I don't believe in god irl - there's no proof, and there's too many different religions believing contradicting things.

But.

Now that I've been looking into the lore, there's a lot of information that points to their existence. I'm now thinking that perhaps, when man and mer first knew of the gods and started to believe in them, it was a long long time ago. Perhaps even before man came to be. As time went on, and races evolved, colonized new areas of Tamriel, and started to create their own lifestyles, their beliefs changes with them to suit their needs. So at the time of Alessia creating the Eight Divines, people already had several different versions of the gods. Alessia combined those versions into acceptable gods for a racially-tolerant civilization, but there is every possibility (especially given the similarities of their belief structures and deities) that Alduin and Akatosh were derived from the same being originally anyway, though likely he originally had a different name, and she just 'rejoined' these two gods, so to speak. So this being is known by many names to many cultures, but Alduin and Akatosh have similar roles and appearances. Perhaps he is also Tosh-Raka (which sounds a lot like Akatosh when rearranged anyway)?

It all seems a little too convenient how similar people's gods are, and how everything has conveniently led up to this moment as the Elder Scrolls foretold. I'm finding it a lot harder to find evidence that shows that Akatosh and Alduin aren't one and the same now.

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:17 pm

It comes down to perspectives.

Mer saw Mundus as a prison, and Shor as the trickster, Lorkhan, and Auri-El as their defender against Shor. Men saw Shor as their liberator, Mundus as Shor's divine mercy, and Alduin as a terrible beast. As a side note, Vivec agrees with the men point of view that Mundus is Shor's divine mercy, not a malicious prison.

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:49 am

I'm finding it a lot harder to find evidence that shows that Akatosh and Alduin aren't one and the same now.

I read about Alduin and thought it sounded like a completely different deity than Akatosh, i.e., more violent, less "righteous". But now I'm beginning to see that Akatosh's image was softened by Alessia, it seems like World Eater is Akatosh's true identity. I'm just confused about the bargain Akatosh struck with Alessia, I'm assuming it's because Dagon was a common enemy. After KotN, I don't know what to think :blink:

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:07 pm

Hell, the whole religion of the 9 is nothing more than a feel good compromise of humans suffering from Stockholm Syndrome, but not trying to piss off the nords who helped them quite a lot (and would have waged war on them if they didn't include Shor as a good deity. Hell, the nords consider Shezarr to be nothing more than an extremely diluted version of Shor)

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:58 am

It all seems a little too convenient how similar people's gods are...

Well to be perfectly honest, a lot of gods on Earth are surprisingly similar. The Roman gods, for instance, were literally the Greek gods with different names.

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:03 am

I'm keen to find out how the elves view Alduins return.. would they call him Auriel? Are they happy hes returned? Does it impact the storyline playing as an elf?

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:57 pm

I'm keen to find out how the elves view Alduins return.. would they call him Auriel? Are they happy hes returned? Does it impact the storyline playing as an elf?

I think the elves viewed the creation of Mundus as them being separated from their divinity. Mer descended straight from Auri-El, according to their creation myth, and (don't remember where I read this) the elves believe that Alduin/Auri-El destroying Mundus would be their apotheosis, or at least their return to their original status as demigods. I think.

e: playing as an elf will probably affect the storyline about as much as playing a Dunmer did in Morrowind, which is to say, not at all. If past experience has proven anything, it is that the gods don't appear to be racist when it comes to choosing their champions

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:03 pm

I think the elves viewed the creation of Mundus as them being separated from their divinity. Mer descended straight from Auri-El, according to their creation myth, and (don't remember where I read this) the elves believe that Alduin/Auri-El destroying Mundus would be their apotheosis, or at least their return to their original status as demigods. I think.

So that would suggest that they would assist Alduin?, sounds like the Pantathians from Raymond E. Feists books

Would it be their entire race or just random cults

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:39 pm

Azura seemed to be pretty keen on saving the world in Morrowind, as did the Nine Divines in KotN. I wonder if The "good daedra" or the remaining Aedra will try to put a stop to Alduin? Or, even better, how about Dagon as the player's divine mentor/patron?

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:41 pm

So that would suggest that they would assist Alduin?, sounds like the Pantathians from Raymond E. Feists books

Would it be their entire race or just random cults

I don't think any of the elves but the Altmer and maybe the Chimer ever believed that, and I find it hard to believe that many of them would see the destruction of the world as a good thing. I imagine there's a few here and there that would support Alduin, but there were people willing to join the Mythic Dawn after all

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:38 pm

I don't think any of the elves but the Altmer and maybe the Chimer ever believed that, and I find it hard to believe that many of them would see the destruction of the world as a good thing. I imagine there's a few here and there that would support Alduin, but there were people willing to join the Mythic Dawn after all

Would explain why those damm High Elves are so snooty, thinking their gonna be gods and all

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:43 am

e: playing as an elf will probably affect the storyline about as much as playing a Dunmer did in Morrowind, which is to say, not at all. If past experience has proven anything, it is that the gods don't appear to be racist when it comes to choosing their champions

Yes that is most probable. If so i feel it would give credence to Alduin not being Auriel, but two separate beings. Because it wouldn't make sense to me that elves were fighting their beloved Auriel.

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:29 am

My first post in the lore forums, so forgive me if I'm totally out of my depth here.

Yes that is most probable. If so i feel it would give credence to Alduin not being Auriel, but two separate beings. Because it wouldn't make sense to me that elves were fighting their beloved Auriel.

I think the great majority of mer not in any way supporting or approving of Alduin's "devouring" of the world says nothing of Alduin's identity; the way I see it is that whatever entities they were initially descended from, most elves living on Nirn now are, for lack of better words, ordinary people going about their lives. I'm using reality as a comparison here, so I may be underestimating how zealous an entire race or species can be as one in TES lore, but it strikes me as far too simplistic and absolute a way to look at an entire people.

Alduin the devourer might feature, as Auriel, as a positive figure in the cultures and stories of the mer, but how many individual mer would invite death and destruction in the hope that they'll return to demi-divinity? How many individual mer believe that strongly enough, or even relate it enough with their own lifetimes, to gladly invite the deaths of their people, children and loved ones when the time comes?

I think those elves would be a great minority (ie, cults). And it's not as if ordinary elves can do much to oppose dragons, or Alduin himself, in any meaningful way; at least I wouldn't expect the Altmer to play much of a role either way.

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:20 am

Yes that is most probable. If so i feel it would give credence to Alduin not being Auriel, but two separate beings. Because it wouldn't make sense to me that elves were fighting their beloved Auriel.

From http://www.imperial-library.info/content/where-were-you-when-dragon-broke-complete-version:

A fanatical sect of the Alessian Order, the Maruhkati Selective, becomes frustrated by ancient Aldmeri traditions still present within the theological system of the Eight Divines. Specifically, they hated any admission that Akatosh, the Supreme Spirit, was indisputably also Auriel, the Elven High God.

Newly invented rituals were utilized to disprove this theory, to no avail. Finally, the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective channeled the Aurbis itself to mythically remove those aspects of the Dragon God they disapproved of.

Perhaps Auriel really was radically changed by the Selective and what was left was what is now Alduin. The Elven god Auriel may no longer exist as they knew him.

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:20 am

I get impression that people are taking Alduin as evil force as Dagon was in Oblivion, living breathing evil badguy. What i think is that Alduin is the target of "evil" forces in play, they wish to awake/alter him. He's not the one which is opponent for player's side. Alduin just is and waits moment to eat the world. Just as Selectives tried (and prevailed?) to eraze aspects of Auri-El to form Eight Divines.

So we are looking at some fanatical sect in Skyrim, by the way i see it. Who? PSJJJ order?

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/vehks-book-hours-concerning-dragon-break

"...Of special note is the Blue Star, which the Alesstics call ‘Mnemoli', that runs through this part of the Aurbis every untime. The psijiics hold it in much reverence, and many of their folk make pilgrimages to Veloth when it appears because a mountain there catches fire at its passing. This mountain is reputed to be one of the last refuges of the Dwemer before they departed from this world...

[snipr]

"...the Hurling Disk, it is conjectured, contains a strange mingling of magic from both the Solar and Lunar spheres. That singular rarity, coupled with the rarity of its presence within the world, has kept it from gaining a strong foothold in the schools of known sorcery. The Selectives claim a similar source of power in their depictions of the Right Reaching, but that has not deterred those magicians which still try to fathom the meaning of the middle dawn and what benefits they may derive from that understanding. Perhaps it is the association of Mnemoli with the vanishing of sequential sensation (and, by extension, the teeth-filled stare of the Alinor Dragon that comes thereafter) that drives seekers of arcane knowledge to pledge their scholarship to the Aetherius rather than dealing with the esoteric teachings of my murder-brother SEHT or her many aspects, who loves the secret tower so much that she trucks with folk that first gave it legs, head, and sixual recepticle...

I admit that i understand probably just half (or less) out of this. Oh and it might not be Alduin, but Alinor.

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:31 pm

I read about Alduin and thought it sounded like a completely different deity than Akatosh, i.e., more violent, less "righteous". But now I'm beginning to see that Akatosh's image was softened by Alessia, it seems like World Eater is Akatosh's true identity. I'm just confused about the bargain Akatosh struck with Alessia, I'm assuming it's because Dagon was a common enemy. After KotN, I don't know what to think :blink:

As far as I can see, he struck the bargain with Alessia because in order to regain strength he needed the faith and worship of mortals. At least, that's what my theory in the OP was based on, but I have only seen that written by other members of the forum, and haven't seen any solid lore that confirms it yet. And even if there was lore about it, it's TES lore, and so isn't fact simply because it's written. But it is an interesting idea, and I would love to see if the events of Skyrim lend the theory more credence.

I think the great majority of mer not in any way supporting or approving of Alduin's "devouring" of the world says nothing of Alduin's identity; the way I see it is that whatever entities they were initially descended from, most elves living on Nirn now are, for lack of better words, ordinary people going about their lives. I'm using reality as a comparison here, so I may be underestimating how zealous an entire race or species can be as one in TES lore, but it strikes me as far too simplistic and absolute a way to look at an entire people.

Alduin the devourer might feature, as Auriel, as a positive figure in the cultures and stories of the mer, but how many individual mer would invite death and destruction in the hope that they'll return to demi-divinity? How many individual mer believe that strongly enough, or even relate it enough with their own lifetimes, to gladly invite the deaths of their people, children and loved ones when the time comes?

I think those elves would be a great minority (ie, cults). And it's not as if ordinary elves can do much to oppose dragons, or Alduin himself, in any meaningful way; at least I wouldn't expect the Altmer to play much of a role either way.

Yeah, I agree with you. I also think that those cults would most likely be found on the Summerset Isles or the newly invaded Valenwood (assuming the Altmer still control it in Skyrim's time). Any Altmer found living in Skyrim, including the PC should he choose the Altmer race, would be very far removed from the race's traditional cultures and beliefs. Though it would be cool to occasionally come across Altmer fanatics, perhaps as a new enemy type akin to the necromancers and bandits from Oblivion?

From http://www.imperial-library.info/content/where-were-you-when-dragon-broke-complete-version:

A fanatical sect of the Alessian Order, the Maruhkati Selective, becomes frustrated by ancient Aldmeri traditions still present within the theological system of the Eight Divines. Specifically, they hated any admission that Akatosh, the Supreme Spirit, was indisputably also Auriel, the Elven High God.

Newly invented rituals were utilized to disprove this theory, to no avail. Finally, the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective channeled the Aurbis itself to mythically remove those aspects of the Dragon God they disapproved of.

Perhaps Auriel really was radically changed by the Selective and what was left was what is now Alduin. The Elven god Auriel may no longer exist as they knew him.

Did that definitely happen? Could mortals really have altered the gods? Or did they only succeed in altering mortal perception of the gods? I haven't heard about this event before, and a quick search of 'aurbis' on UESP brought up two whole lines of little use...

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:18 am

Did that definitely happen? Could mortals really have altered the gods? Or did they only succeed in altering mortal perception of the gods?

The two are essentially equivalent. As for whether they succeeded, its hard to tell. The modern Akatosh is pretty far removed from Auriel, but also from Alduin. This could have been a cultural change or a mythical retcon. The striking of the pact might have been one of those retcons: other texts have Lorkhan presenting the Amulet to her instead, which would make more sense in a typical mannish pantheon. Either way, they could not have succeeded in removing all Elven influence, since Auriel IS Akatosh (IS Alduin)... sorta.

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:26 pm

The two are essentially equivalent. As for whether they succeeded, its hard to tell. The modern Akatosh is pretty far removed from Auriel, but also from Alduin. This could have been a cultural change or a mythical retcon. The striking of the pact might have been one of those retcons: other texts have Lorkhan presenting the Amulet to her instead, which would make more sense in a typical mannish pantheon. Either way, they could not have succeeded in removing all Elven influence, since Auriel IS Akatosh (IS Alduin)... sorta.

Dragon Break did occur. So something atleast happened. I think Amulet of kings and Dragon Fires is proof of this. And i don't think it is destruction of Amulet of kings which some how unbinds Akatosh back to what it used to be. As far as i can tell there wasn't Dragon Break after events of Oblivion which "logically" should happen? So i assume that Akatosh is still the main role which Akatosh/Alduin/Auriel/PleaseDon'tForceMeToGiveOtherNames plays, someone has to Break Dragon yet again to "make" it Alduin (or something). Like Selectives did.

...

Ofcourse this applies only if Selectives indeed managed to take (some) aspects of Auriel from Akatosh. And possibly also bind Akatosh into Amulet of Kings.

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:58 pm

quote name='second' timestamp='1294946763' post='16979410']
Dragon Break did occur. So something atleast happened. I think Amulet of kings and Dragon Fires is proof of this. And i don't think it is destruction of Amulet of kings which some how unbinds Akatosh back to what it used to be. As far as i can tell there wasn't Dragon Break after events of Oblivion which "logically" should happen? So i assume that Akatosh is still the main role which Akatosh/Alduin/Auriel/PleaseDon'tForceMeToGiveOtherNames plays, someone has to Break Dragon yet again to "make" it Alduin (or something). Like Selectives did.[/quote]

The Dragonfires in the Temple of the One not being lit, and a Dragonborn emperor not wearing the Amulet of Kings are the conditions for the covenant to be broken. That was probably what released Akatosh, not the Dragon Break. Perhaps it was during the Warp in the West in which Akatosh/Auri-El/Alduin etc. was returned to his pristine status and stripped of the varying mortal perspectives.

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:16 pm

The Dragonfires in the Temple of the One not being lit, and a Dragonborn emperor not wearing the Amulet of Kings are the conditions for the covenant to be broken. That was probably what released Akatosh, not the Dragon Break. Perhaps it was during the Warp in the West in which Akatosh/Auri-El/Alduin etc. was returned to his pristine status and stripped of the varying mortal perspectives.

This is something i have wondered some deal. Thru out 2nd era there wasn't Dragonborn emperor wearing Amulet of Kings if Potentate wasn't dragonborn himself. Martin hadn't amulet of kings for sometime before it was recovered, admittedly it was brief time. Heck he's father spent many years in Void or somewhere during events of Arena. I believe there were times when there was someone else than Dragonborn in throne, Reman 1 died years before Reman 2 was born. So basically there could have been atleast one time when Dragonfires could have died away and no real emperor with Amulet of Kings and thus covenant be broken and Dagon have free access into Mundus.

And of course there's fact than Mehrunes Dagon destoryed Mournhold after time when deal was made with Alessia and Akatosh. So was there anykind of Covenant in the first place? Sotha-Sil's pact with Four Corner of Trouble allowed this to happen (it was witch who summoned Dagon), but Covenant was suposed to ward this off... But infact it's possible that last emperor of 1st Era Reman III had just died away when Dagon assaulted Mournhold. Both events happens at 1E 2920. Covenant apparently went off already by then.

In this sense i've never quite understood Oblivion's story. There has been presented this theory that Akatosh needed Dagon to destory Amulet of Kings before it dared to release itself from Covenant, so it planned this all along... It logical explanation, but my simple mind has hard time with it.

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:27 pm

second, thing is, Red Mountain was still active with your examples, so the hell that was going on from Reman III's death to Tiber's rise to power still had stabilizing towers. With Oblivion, it became deactivated, and when White Gold Tower deactivated by having the rebel steal the stone from the king, bad [censored] could fly out.

Also, I got the idea that MD was more like "[censored] this pact, I'm going to wreck [censored]!"

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:14 pm

This is something i have wondered some deal. Thru out 2nd era there wasn't Dragonborn emperor wearing Amulet of Kings if Potentate wasn't dragonborn himself. Martin hadn't amulet of kings for sometime before it was recovered, admittedly it was brief time. Heck he's father spent many years in Void or somewhere during events of Arena. I believe there were times when there was someone else than Dragonborn in throne, Reman 1 died years before Reman 2 was born. So basically there could have been atleast one time when Dragonfires could have died away and no real emperor with Amulet of Kings and thus covenant be broken and Dagon have free access into Mundus.

And of course there's fact than Mehrunes Dagon destoryed Mournhold after time when deal was made with Alessia and Akatosh. So was there anykind of Covenant in the first place? Sotha-Sil's pact with Four Corner of Trouble allowed this to happen (it was witch who summoned Dagon), but Covenant was suposed to ward this off... But infact it's possible that last emperor of 1st Era Reman III had just died away when Dagon assaulted Mournhold. Both events happens at 1E 2920. Covenant apparently went off already by then.

In this sense i've never quite understood Oblivion's story. There has been presented this theory that Akatosh needed Dagon to destory Amulet of Kings before it dared to release itself from Covenant, so it planned this all along... It logical explanation, but my simple mind has hard time with it.

That's a good point. I'm not sure, but I think it has something to do with the dragonfires going out AND the heir not wearing the Amulet. As in, during the Simulacrum and the Potentates, the Dragonfires didn't go out. I don't remember what caused them to go out in Oblivion, though.

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:18 am

second, thing is, Red Mountain was still active with your examples, so the hell that was going on from Reman III's death to Tiber's rise to power still had stabilizing towers. With Oblivion, it became deactivated, and when White Gold Tower deactivated by having the rebel steal the stone from the king, bad [censored] could fly out.

Also, I got the idea that MD was more like "[censored] this pact, I'm going to wreck [censored]!"

Is there anykind of lore to be read about heart being freed/destoryed and Red mountain going off-line? I've searched a lot but haven't faced such info at least in Imperial Library. Someone who could direct me to such bit of lore would make my day.

Sotha-Sil's pact had such "smart" exceptions listed that witches and sorceress could summon MD.

» Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:06 pm

That's a good point. I'm not sure, but I think it has something to do with the dragonfires going out AND the heir not wearing the Amulet. As in, during the Simulacrum and the Potentates, the Dragonfires didn't go out. I don't remember what caused them to go out in Oblivion, though.

During the Simulacrum the Emperor didn't technically leave the throne. He was still the Emperor. Jagar Tharn was the Emperor only by using Illusion to imitate him.

The Dragonfires may have gone out during Interregnum (the periods between the Empires), but additional towers such as Numidium and Red Mountain kept the Oblivion gates from opening.

As for why Akatosh/Alduin did not appear then... that lore remains to be seen. It most likely has something to do with the Covenant.

My belief? The Covenant doesn't just keep Mundus safe from Oblivion, it also reinforces the infrastructure of the Kapla. As Alduin says in the Aldudagga, "do you even know what would HAPPEN if... the kalpa [was] left to run forever". Something bad would happen, and the Covenant provided the means to avoid it. With it gone, the universe is spiraling towards destruction, so Alduin/Akatosh does what he must to prevent a terrible fate, and MUST eat the world.

Probably a pretty common belief, and probably well debated and such, but I've been too busy to keep up with these debates.