So I'm pretty new to the practice of diving into the depths of TES lore, past what the games clearly spell out for you, but is the following correct (or possibly correct)?

Pact with Mankind
Akatosh and the other divines require the faith and belief of mortals in order to gain strength (not something I've read, other than in other people's comments, so need a source for this please) and so http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Alessia in order to free mankind from Ayleid slavery and protect their world from Oblivion, in exchange for becoming mankind's religion. The deal requires that a descendant of Alessia's bloodline (or someone with the blessing of the gods, and their subsequent bloodline?) be the ruler of the empire, and that they wear the amulet of kings.

Akatosh in Oblivion
So after around 4000 years of worship, when Martin is the only person with royal blood left alive, and the Daedric realm of Oblivion is invading, Akatosh only seems to save the world. I haven't played Oblivion's main quest (despite pouring hundreds of hours into the game :confused: ) so I'm not 100% sure on what occured. But is it possible that Akatosh convinced Martin to sacrifice himself and also destroy the amulet of kings, just to break all elements of the 4000 year old agreement to protect mankind? With no dragon-blood heir remaining, and with the amulet shattered, Akatosh is now free to return to the mortal realm (using the strength he has gained from 4000 years of worship) to lay waste to all creation and return to a timeless state? In other words, was the apparent act of good will by Akatosh in Oblivion, really just a means to an end for the god? Did he save mankind from one terror, just to bring about a bigger one in 200 years time?

Has he also tricked dragons into believing they are capable of achieving immortality? Taking their form, and telling them that by killing man (and possibly Lorkhan?) they will return with Akatosh to the divine forms that their ancestors held?

The Other Divines
In this case, how would the other 8 divines feel about this? The original 7 are presumably also pissed at Lorkhan for his trickery, so could they also feature prominently in Skyrim as enemies bent on mankind's destruction in order to regain their freedom? The Game Informer magazine mentions that Alduin is the chief villain after all, not necessarily the villain. What about the Ninth Divine, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Wulfharth? With Lorkhan having a place in this religion, would people's faith also have strengthened him? And if so, could he therefore feature as a saviour in Skyrim, in a similar fashion to how Akatosh was the 'saviour' in Oblivion?

But this pretty much all hinges on the idea that faith and belief from man and mer strengthens the Aedra, which isn't something I've seen written in official lore, just seen mentioned by other forum members. I haven't read much lore, so if you could link me to something that confirms this I'd be really grateful!

Thoughts? I may well be completely wrong here! If so, I'd love to learn why ^_^

It's a way of seeing things. I'm withholding judgement until I get more details. But the key things to remember is that the Cyrodils are not the Nords. They've got different (if similar) views on the Divine and as such have different (if similar) gods. The Cyrodils have Akatosh, the protector of Mortal-Kind, with some Elven bits removed. The Nords have Alduin, the eater of worlds. The Cyrods have Shezarr, the Nords, Shor. The Nine divines are an Imperial convention and while the Nords have nine chief gods, their interpretation is different.

The events are the same, its just how they're perceived is what'll change.

He's evil from a mortal point of view, but that doesn't mean his intentions are chaotic evil (eating the world for no reason). He's doing it because that's what has to be done.

Time consumes us all, just remember that. Except, Alduin makes that pretty literal.

Well... he makes it literal because we make him make it literal... but whatever, close enough.

Interesting theory, I wonder how it will actually play out in Skyrim.


:rofl:

The Nords have about six prime gods. Well, more like four, because Zun and Jhunal aren't worshiped. Nobody needs them, anymore. Herma-Mora, Dagon, and Mauloch are among the pantheon.

(Potentially) most righteous.

Well, hermy wouldn't be well liked, as he did try to convince the nords to become mer, and Malacath is a giant fart to the nords.

You insult my ancestors!

The term is "hyper-sixed fecaloid."

So...a lingering fart?

I'm sure Akatosh has other motivations than just wanting to go on rampage, if Mehrunes Dagon was actually 'killed' in Oblivion (haven't played it for a while) maybe a balance needs to be kept and a divine must also die :shrug:

EDIT: or perhaps he's like the army of the dead from LOTR, his guardianship of humanity was only good for one crisis, and now that that has been used he has no obligation (like a hired mercenary of sorts)

Dagon/Revolution/Destruction is Akatosh breaking from the grinding Wheel.

Absolutely, and I feel bad for not making this clearer. Essentially there is no good and evil, just different points of view. So from Akatosh's point of view, he was tricked by Lorkhan into creating Nirn and allowing humans to exist, imprisoning him and the other gods in the process. Essentially, the existence of man and mer keeps Akatosh locked away in a Fort Knox, only worse. He's used to movement through unlimited space and time. I suppose being locked in a cell with linear time, and without the ability to physically manifest in the world except through an avatar is akin to locking a prisoner in a room so small that he can't even turn around or stand up straight. I don't blame him for wanting to escape.

The Nordic belief, that Alduin (Akatosh) created the world, and that he also plans to devour it, still holds true to the Cyrodiilic view (assuming that he's actually an enemy of Cyrodiil forced into a pact to survive, as outlined above). Different motives, but same results as far as man and mer are concerned. Drawing the parallels you can see a lot of similarity.


This being the idea that gods are only created through mortal beliefs and faith? A really cool theory, and the one I held before hearing the story of Skyrim involving dragons and Alduin destroying the world, and linking it all up to the stories of past TES games. Now I'm not sure, and am actually starting to think the gods may be very real, and perhaps even did create the world. I'm not sure. That's what I love about TES! The lore is so open to speculation! Other games just give you lore and present it as fact... as do most books. TES is a cut above most fantasy.


Yep, see my reply to Rivaldo above. I'm not quite sure about Dagon's involvement yet though, since I've never played the main quest. Is there a reason he wanted to invade Tamriel? Could he have been talked in to it by Akatosh, who potentially planned for this all to happen? Assassination of the heirs, and the destruction of the amulet being required to defeat Dagon, thus releasing Akatosh from his pact with mankind? Then again, is there a reason he couldn't have just ignored the pact and gone back on his word anyway? Perhaps the power of the amulet's main soul gem?



This is of course all assuming that the gods are real, that they gain strength from mankind's belief (still don't have a link to any lore on this!), and that the creation story about Lorkhan tricking the other gods into creating Nirn really happened. I'm just as likely to believe that man and mer created those stories, they were exaggerated and altered over time, with names and stories altering as races and cultures shifted into different parts of Tamriel, and everything having occured just being coincidence in that it can be bent into proof of the gods' existence and motives.

Akatosh is called the "bane of kings" in the translated poem. Take that as you will....

Oblivion info: According to the Mythic Dawn, Dagon doesn't want to destroy/invade Tamriel. He want to get it back, because it's the former Daedric realm of Prince Lorkhan that was stolen by the "filthy" Aedra. There is no information about how truthful these beliefs are.

Although, http://www.imperial-library.info/content/fight-one-eating-birth-dagon is probably a better source to know why Dagon is doing what he is doing. He just want to jump again.

From the Fights:

"...You I curse right here and right now! I take away your ability to jump and jump and jump and doom you to [the void] where you will not be able to leave except for auspicious days long between one and another and even so only through hard, hard work. And it will be this way, my little corner cutter, until you have destroyed all that in the world which you have stolen from earlier kalpas, which is to say probably never at all!"

Was the entire Oblivion main quest Dagon destroying the last "stolen" part of Tamriel so that Alduin could more easily eat the world again? Also, is there any evidence that Alduin and Akatosh are the same deity? Akatosh was merely the Imperial version of Auri-El, the same way Alduin is the Nordic version of him. Just because Alessia (or whoever) said they were the same, in order to reconcile the Nordic and Imperial religions, does that mean that the Aedra changed too? Akatosh and Alduin seem pretty different.

From Shezarr and the Divines:

"...concessions were made and Empress Alessia instituted a new religion: the Eight Divines, an elegant, well-researched synthesis of both pantheons, Nordic and Aldmeri. Shezarr, as a result, had to change. He could no longer be the bloodthirsty anti-Aldmer warlord of old. He could not disappear altogether either, or the Nords would have withdrawn their support of her rule. In the end, he had become "the spirit behind all human undertaking." Even though this was merely a thinly-disguised, watered-down version of Shor, it was good enough for the Nords."

If they changed Shor/Shezarr, was he really changing or were the priests merely saying that he did? And if they did, what would stop them from changing Akatosh/Alduin to suit their needs?

Dagon - Destruction, Revolution, etc. - is Akatosh, breaking from the Covenant. When he's finally broken the chains and he's free, you see Martin's apotheosis and Dagon's banishment. Dagon was the result of the subterfuge, against the Wheel, Aka's prison.


Same thing. http://www.imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-song-pelinal-8 hid http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100202215236/elderscrolls/images/d/d7/Statue_akatosh.jpg.

By liberate, they actually mean completely annihilate. Mundus is a prison, and Mehrunes Dagon is there to shatter its bars. In essence, Mankar Camoran has a bit of the Fights and merrish thought in his ravings. Now, by having Dagon force Martin's hands into shattering the amulet, Dagon may have indeed fulfilled his purpose by releasing the dragon of time.

I was reading the Nu-Mantia Intercepts.... I guess that's the "empire-spanning conspiracy" it mentioned. Also:



Here's hoping Skyrim isn't the Crystal Skull of the Elder Scrolls series. "The Aedra are all aliens. From space!" I know there's some ambiguity in the lore about plane/planet but the "sleek and silver vessel" part makes me nervous. Somehow the mental image of Akatosh riding his White Gold Crystalline spaceship down to Nirn doesn't help. :sadvaultboy:


e: duh

Ur tower is a space ship

Doesn't Bethesda have a Star Trek license? Elder Scrolls VI, starring Patrick Stewart as both Uriel XX and Captain Picard. :facepalm:

it actually is a space ship though.


Does that mean that if he appears in Skyrim (which he will) we will get another Adamantine tower?

Most gods are extra-terrestrial beings. Not a big deal, at all.

I've been enjoying the perception of the Aedra as distant spirits since Morrowind. Oh well. Times change. I'll be happy as long as they avoid explaining magic away as some advanced kind of alien technology. :rolleyes:



Something tells me that it might be a bad thing if Alduin doesn't succeed... it sounds like it might be a natural process of rebirth. So maybe Alduin destroys the world, then creates a new one, with a new set of towers. Or the main quest of Skyrim ends with the Dragonborn ending the cycle of Aka's destruction.

Edit: I'd love to see all the mystical business tied up neatly at the end, so that the only problems remaining for Tamriel are political. Kind of, "the gods/daedra are leaving us alone for a while, now we have to figure out how to live with each other."

Well, I would say the aedra are more like planets at this point in time, and they circle around Mundus...well the aedra that did not wholly give themselves up to creation, like Y'ffre. Heck, the two moons, Massur and Secunda, are actually pieces of Shor/Lorkhan/Shezarr's flesh.