It would solve nothing.

Assume Fight One was included in Skyrim as a book. What would it accomplish? It would not magically make the story of Aka and Dagon true. It would be a neat find that many of us would enjoy reading (again), but it would not be truth.

So because MK no longer works for Beth, though they still do use his materiel and contract him, means that what he comes up with should not taken into account? Your calling his comments and work misinformation correct? when this man is one of the key founders of TES lore?

in all the Video Game websites I've been too

-Canon is all materials considered factual in a series
-Lore is the information within those canon materials

I.E.
-Biography of the Wolf Queen is a canon book
-The information contained within it is Lore about the Wolf Queen.

Irrelevant over-generalism. TES is a different animal.

No, it really isn't.

Sure it is. We exist in a world where current and former devs at least frequent the forms somewhat, and drop off information that give us lore-heads something to talk about. Your definition of lore is rigid, lore is everything within the universe, true or false, not just cannon or "what is". MK drops us a bit of behind the scenes info and it gives us something to talk about, discuss, and interpret weather it fits into lore or not. Some stuff just doens't fit into the context of the games, nor would it make sense to be included.

Lore is rigid

Lore is the information contained within canon materials.

False.

The information contained within canonical materials is lore. There's a huge difference.

You're putting the cart before the horse.

CandleJack doesn't accept anything not in game as canon.

The rest of us do.

Obviously neither of us is going to convince the other, so how about we just drop this oft-repeated argument and go on with our lives? There are much better things to discuss.

Agreed; sorry that I got svcked back into it. This is my last post in this thread. I was looking for a way out; I appreciate you providing one.

Oh, but it is.

How many franchises can you name that have provided an entry with multiple endings that all end up being simultaneously true, eh?

Furthermore, hermeneutic ambiguity is a major theme in TES. That's why the in-game books are written from the perspective of unreliable narrators and there are 31 different flavors of Dragon God.

You have to admit that's hardly "rigid".

Dues Ex. 1 is a great example

Though normally most series don't have to suffer through that because the writers do their job.... and write.

Deus ex Machinas are generally frowned upon in the literary world as a easy way out. I was very disappointed when Bethesda said "instead of picking one lets go with them all"

The ending to Deus Ex 1 weren't simultaneously true. IW assumed JC had chosen to merge with Helios, hence why JC wasn't a member of the Illuminati and why the world wasn't in the dark ages, and why he was, you know, merged with Helios.

Well, to be fair: CandleJack does not accept anything not officially published by Bethesda as canon. (To preclude potential objections by CandleJack on the word choice.)

But you're right, I, too, cannot recall any thread where this discussion lead anywhere. (Such a thread probably would have been stickied, anyway! :happy:) So if someone insists upon reducing lore to fact and not-fact, it's probably better to stop discussing it with that person ...

*sighs, then follows the Lady and the King*


Hand of Sotha

That was a Dragonbreak. That's less "God from a machine" and more "God threw out his back".

It's also the more interesting choice overall, giving us political stability in the Illiac Bay, an Orcish state, the release of Underking, a god of necromancers, and the novel idea that the gods are not quite in control of themselves. Really, to have just picked one of the endings would have been lamesauce in comparison.

Cannon is rigid, Cannon is included in the Lore, where as the lore is made up of lies, theories, truths, half truths ect, ect. The Lady is right though, each has their own opinion, an neither camp seems to going to agree.

Actually parts of each Dues ex 1 ending are true.

I should have clarified that each ending was not 100% canon but chunks of each ending where.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/deusixinvisiblewar/preview_6074704.html
"The first game gave players a choice of three radically different endings, so one of the biggest questions on fans' minds, during the development of Invisible War, has been, "Which Deus Ex ending will Ion Storm consider to be the 'true' one that will be picked up for the second game?" That question has finally been answered: All three of them. Invisible War assumes that all three possible scenarios played out, and their combined effects have resulted in a minor Dark Age that has plunged the world into depression and chaos. "



As it stands now everything ended 100% peacefully.

Had only one of the endings happened it would have caused much more turmoil. turmoil leads to more story options.

The Warp of the West ended in one of the greatest losses of life in Tamriels history, it didn't end peacefully by a long shot.

How the hell have you still not gotten the point after 6 pages of people telling you to shut the [censored] up? This isn't any kind of mistake on our part that you need to come in and fix, this is a conscious decision by the lore community to partake in discussions of unofficial dev texts because we like the ideas presented. If it's not canon, it's not canon; I think we've made it pretty clear we don't really give a [censored] what terms you apply to them.

You (and perhaps a few others) don't agree with this, which, while absolutely stupid, is fair enough. But telling us we shouldn't bring these texts up because they're not official is pointless - we have brought them up, do bring them up and will continue to bring them up despite what you say.

So, just to repeat what Lady N said. Let it go, we [censored] get it already. And if you see a thread where someone's asking a question and an unofficial text gets brought up (that you obviously won't agree with), instead of derailing the entire thing with BS like this, offer a canonical answer - and if you can't do that, don't reply at all.

I meant peacefully in the long run.

compared to having the underking continue to run around, while the Orcs fought in wars for recognition, while the various kingdoms of the bay region continued to fight amongst themselves, while the empire regained a impossibly overpowered golem-god of death to [censored] the faces off of anything they wanted to for a long time.

I have my problems with the Warp in the West retcon, but it's not a deus ex machina. It's a natural, if unexpected, conclusion to what happens in Daggerfall. Bunch of politicians fighting for godlike power --> they find it --> they use it --> world goes crazy. Pretty straightforward progression. Deus ex, popularly, is when something that wasn't set up previously in the story comes out of nowhere to fundamentally change the plot/save the characters.

But it doesn't go with the story of the game, because the story of the game assumes you give it to ONE faction.

Having the next game say "everyone got it" goes against the previously set up plot path of you HAVE to pick ONE group/faction.

If the Empire got it, then they would just use it to crush their opponents. You know the Great War, the Oblivion Crisis, and everything else after Daggerfall? All of that would be gone if the Empire had the Numidium. The second destruction of the orcs city? Gone. No city for them. No playable orcs.

So no, what you want would cause stability. And the Numidium is powerful because it [censored]s up time, not because it stomps stuff.

Not really, the mythic dawn cult could have still killed the emperor and summoned Dagon. I would love to see that fight, Dagon Vs Numidium.

Also just because the Orc city is gone doesn't mean they wouldn't be playable. It would just mean their race is in decline.

Not really, with only one ending being true, the narrative can only proceed down one axis.

Wheres with the Warp, we have multiple axes.

Remember, the miracle peace of was only temporary, the Empire crumbles and Orsinium gets sacked. Mannimarco is still out there, trolling Arkay, and the Underking...well, he's out there, somewhere. And of course, the resounding implications of the gods being half-dead and plastic.

Much more interesting than if TES was a rigid and mandated that say, only Daggerfall got hold of Walking Brass. Bam. Empire of Daggefall. No contest, no conflict, no drama.

Also, recall the Dev who wrote the putatively-canon texts that helped to resolve and explain that this glaring discrepancy.

His initials, are of course, M and K.

QED we of the Shadowy Lore-Forum Clique would run into massive invisible walls if we tried to explain anything without linking to MK. It's just a necessity.