It's... make... believe...

None of it matters. It's fictional. Only what is interesting matters.

So is
Star Wars
Warhammer
D&D
Fallout
Star Trek
Mass effect
and countless other things

But saying what is right when talking about them doesn't matter is like saying what is right in Harry potter doesn't matter when talking about it. You would be terribly terribly wrong


You can sharpen a pencil by removing the eraser and the metal thing and sharpening that end but that would be doing it wrong.

I sincerely apologize for this, as I recognize that it is profoundly impolite; Since this thread has descended into something altogether meaningless, and this despite certain parties efforts to go back to the original topic of discussion, I would humbly suggest that it be allowed to die. If this should prove to be too difficult, then it should be locked;

If you can only engage in these discussions after a point by derailing them entirely, for the love of Shor, please stop.

Discussions about fictional works are already meaningless, as they have no bearing on reality.

You cant get more meaningless then the original topic of this thread.

By your logic the entire lore forums should be closed due to meaninglessness.

I don't think this anology does what you think it does.


Your idea of canon as a fundamental concept is silly because it is actually just copyright law and intellectual property. What people really mean when they speak of canon is a body of notable, respected work by given authors.

b : the authentic works of a writer
c : a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works

Canon is subjective and defined by the audience, although the authority of the writers can make that decision for them (such a decision is absent in this case).

a : an accepted principle or rule b : a criterion or standard of judgment c : a body of principles, rules, standards, or norms

In a literary sense, the correct manner in which to approach TES, works drop in and out of canon.

To return to the original, religious meaning of the word, canon is any text REGARDED by the Church (Bethesda) or the faithful (fans) as scripture. As an example, take the Muslim hadith. These are commentaries on the Quran and accounts of Mohammed's life mainly by those who knew him. Not revelations from God and therefore secondary, but accepted by most modern believers nonetheless.

Discussions about fictional works are already meaningless, as they have no bearing on reality.

You cant get more meaningless then the original topic of this thread.

By your logic the entire lore forums should be closed due to meaninglessness.

So literature has no meaning? The meaning of literature is not in what age Hamlet was at the time of his death.

But saying what is right when talking about them doesn't matter is like saying what is right in Harry potter doesn't matter when talking about it. You would be terribly terribly wrong

By all means, take a poll of Harry Potter fans with the following question. "If J.K. Rowling gave away the rights to a janitor, would you read and believe the sequel he wrote while ignoring everything the original author said about her past work?"

So while you're gathering data on that, let's get on with the topic of Alduin and Akatosh. We await your return.

To call all those around you ignorant when they do not share your opinion seems like, to borrow your own words ...




to me.

To clarify: I do not expect you to uncritically accept the opinions of a majority, just because they are a majority. But maybe you should occasionally stop and try to understand why they don't agree with your opinion, instead of unquestioningly clinging to it. Or are you above erring?


... Wait a moment, did I really read this?



Are you really saying here that fiction cannot have meaning pertaining to the real world? That fiction cannot make statements about real humans, or the way the real world works? That works like those by Shakespeare, Goethe, Homer, or whomever are mere fancy and contain nothing of worth beyond entertainment, and that any literary discussion therefore would be meaningless?

... And you call us ignorant?


HoS, flabbergasted

The opinion of the fans is meaningless when it comes to canon as canon is defined and set by the series owners.


In a work of fiction, canon is any and all material accepted as "official".

Fans don't get to determine what is official the owners do, the rest of your post is negated by that fact.

You misunderstand. He does bow uncritically to the opinions of the majority. In this case, Star Wars fans. A pedantic catalog of in-universe facts is all that concerns him, which is why you should indeed be




You seem to believe in some sort of magical force emanating from Bethesda's lawyers to our brains. A writer without readers is one person exercising their vocal chords. The readers have all the true power and can override the intentions of authors. In this case, the authors make no such definitions and there is no conflict.

I don't give two flips what the fan think, it isn't their series to determine anything about.

Fiction can have meaning, whatever meaning the author gives it

Discussing it is pointless as it is the authors intended meaning that trumps all.

Candlejack, please answer this. If MK's writings do not matter, why do they seem to have such an influence on Skyrim, as well as parts of The Infernal City.

hmm I'm not seeing it.

Skyrim happens because of those 5 signs, none of which are dependent on MK's writings.

The Infernal City mentions white-gold being able to seal the rift between mundus and Oblivion but that doesn't really verify the whole tower/stone nnu-mati thing.

"The Scathing Bay" first showed up in the Loveletter. Aldmeri desire to see Talos gone? Been around so long I can't find it in the forums. Now Talos worship is banned. That's how you kill a god. Take away the belief. Giants liking swirls on their art? Straight out of the Aldudagga fights.

http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15402

Please enlighten me as to the authors intended meaning.

Ohh man they used a name that sounded cool, Geroge Lucas did it also in Star Wars, doesn't make the description of that character or place in a side story canon. It just means they used the name.


Elves hating humans? dear god stop the presses because that TOTALLY wasn't mentioned before.


swirls appear everywhere, like seriously its REALLY common, The quarrians in Mass effect must be related to the giants in ES also.


MK's works are based upon the ES games not the other way around.

Spoken like someone who's never taken an English class in his life.

Most of the books in the literary canon have dead authors whose intentions cannot ever be known. You're really going at this the wrong way.


Willful ignorance and denial. I'm out.

I took plenty of English classes and they made me laugh.

There is no point in trying to find out a dead authors motive as they are dead. discussing something you can never know is fruitless.

So why are you in the lore forum? You can never know for sure if a book is true. If you want to discuss in game happenings, Oblivion/Morrowind/PastGames General are more your avenue.

Because there's plenty of established events that happen between or before the ES games which constitutes lore.

Also while we can't definitively know if a in-game book is "true" or not, until something it given to contradict it, I.E Mankar wearing the Amulet of Kings, we can assume it is right.

So any given fictional work looses any worth except for entertainment as soon as the author has died. (Except, of course, if he or she published a clear explanation of it before dying.) Good to know.

And living authors should just explain what they meant, instead of hoping for readers who try to understand their works by using their own heads. Also, good to know.


:rolleyes:


Why do you take part in lore discussions, then? You explicitly say in that quote from your post that discussing fiction is pointless. Our discussions here are attempts at understanding fictional matters. So as that's pointless to you, why are you here? Are you so bored that even pointless talking is better than the alternative? Or do you enjoy discussion about facts?




What a boring discussion that would be! But, each to their own ... if you enjoy that, you'd probably be better off looking for other people as discussion partners, instead of squandering your time on us ignorants.


The only threads not pointless to you would appear to be those where Bethesda officially hands out facts ...


HoS

TES lore is designed around not having staunch truths provided to the player. It's about providing conjecture and possibilities from in-world sources, so that players can make up their own beliefs with the info they're given. It's been the philosophy ever since Daggerfall (the War of Betony, anyone?). Having only one source on a subject does not make it inherently true until something comes to contradict it. Some people may take it at as what they believe to be true, but we can also come up with our own ideas and beliefs, and provide them here if we have evidence to back them up with (or if it's just too awesome to not share). And since Bethesda has not moved any of the (former) devs' out-of-game texts to the fan-fiction forum, nor has told us to stop treating them as valid lore, it's reasonable to conclude they don't mind us playing around with the ideas expressed therein. It's not like we're going to take those ideas as absolute truth, and it's not like it diminishes the work they put into the games themselves.

Huleed said it pretty well. Beth has always left most of the lore open for discussion and encourages us to draw our own conclusions and unxover the truth. There are few solid cannonical facts when it comes down to anything that's not mundane in TES lore.

Has Candlejack ever actually stepped in to discuss lore? As far as I can tell, it seems like he's only really been talking about literary criticism. At this point, I think we should just leave this to his English teachers.

Except there's 4 games worth of solid canonal facts.

You obviously didn't read my post.