For the same reason only George Lucas can determine what is canon in Star Wars, it's his series, he owns it, and thus he get to make the final call

You can assert that, but it doesn't make it true.

EDIT: That wasn't intended to be trolling, but in case it seems that way, I'll elucidate:

You have a different definition of canon. Fine. That doesn't mean that you can assert it as factual.

Actually it does.

That's how ownership works. If you own it its yours to determine what is or isn't.

Unfortunately not. Otherwise, artists would all determine that their works are superb works of art.

It's the critics-- the informed community-- that establish the significance and legitimacy of their claims.

At least, that's how I understand it.

Well value is a construct made from the human imagination and thus value is subjective to each individual an artists claim that his work is superb is correct.

However we are not talking about value we are talking about details within a object.



Case in point
-Gene Roddenberry the creator of Star Trek has been recorded as saying many details of episodes of the original Star Trek aren't canon.
-JRR Tolken, if he were still alive, could say Frodo's encounter with shelob the spider never happened, even though it was in the book, should he desire.

Legally, sure. But if all of Lucas' fans ignore that the force comes from midichlorians, does it really matter what the "official" word says? The "official" word is in this case effectively eliminated by fan opinion, and a new form of canon, mandated by fans, has arisen. In TES, the fans (or, more accurately, a select but shifting group of lore scholars) is in charge of working out all the contradictory information and gaps that Bethesda leaves by accident or by design, and, since Bethesda doesn't themselves have an official word on the canon, the fan's version is as close of capital T Truth that we get. You can choose to deny that, but you're going to be in a small (though admittedly vocal) minority. Most of us don't care about the "official" truth, we care about an interesting world and a cohesive universe.

He has the right to say it, but that doesn't make it true. If there is a knowledgeable and mature community who disagree with him, he may be wrong.

And, I'd still appreciate that quote.

EDIT: Drat; again Lady Nerevar said it better than I could. Feel free to altogether disregard this.

And, if it's relevant, I'm speaking as someone who learns from the experts. I'm not an expert-- I know next to nothing-- and claim no authority. There are some, however, like Hellmouth, Prowler, and Lady Nerevar, who have (in my estimation) earned the right to be considered experts. If they assert something as true about TES lore, I tend to believe it, unless I have good reason to disagree.

Same with MK, I suppose.

Fanon, made by denialists who think they have some higher authority then the series creator.

I don't like the whole "midichlorians" bs, but I'm not so arrogant to think myself better then the series writer.

It's HIS story written by HIM in the way HE wanted. You can't claim his version of a story is "wrong" besides it's HIS story. That's like saying a company made a chair wrong when they had planned to make it that way from the beginning.



The closest we get to official truth is anything that stated in games

The supposed "plot gaps" and "errors" are caused by something called Retcons, something few ES fans seems to have a understanding of. It was said that Cyrodiil was a jungle, while in Oblivion is was shown not to be. This isnt a "error" its a Retcon, Crydiil was never a jungle because Bethesda changed their mind, as is their right as series owners.

Actually, not a retcon; it was CHIM'ed by Talos, if I recall correctly.

(Let's pretend I can use "CHIM" like that.)

That was never stated in game, or approved by Bethesda.

Until a in-game book, a in-game dialog reference, or bethesda themselves say it is so it isn't

It is simply a retcon.

One book in Oblivion says that only descendants of Alessia can wear the Amulet of Kings. Yet none of the Septim emperors, much less Mankar, are descendants of Alessia. Is Oblivion retconing itself?



From the Commentaries.



So yes, it was stated in an in game book. Incidentally an in game book written by the guy who you claim doesn't work for Bethesda.

A in-game book, written by in-game writers, who being in-game people are subject to limited knowledge.

there are several possibilities including
A. The author of the book didn't know the true story
B. It was a lie perpetuated by the empire

The amulet of king's magical requirement powers are really unknown.

:facepalm:

So everything in game is canon, but nothing in game is objectively true? How do you find what is real if you're not willing to accept anything? It seems to me that you're just trying to find excuses to ignore things you don't like. We're fine with that, but don't try to pretend that you're doing it for some objective truthyness.

The books are canon in that they exist as they are in the ES universe.

However as many historians IRL do, much written knowledge of the past is based off of myths and speculation.

That was discussed in-game.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-mythic-dawn-commentaries



At this point, I'm probably going to stop commenting, because it's clear what's going on. I'm sad; I had actually hoped this would have developed into a fruitful discussion. :confused:

Hmm I don't remember that in the game but anyways, so it is canon.



But anyways back to what I was saying about the Amulet of Kings

The only source for "only the heir of Alessia can wear the amulet of kings" comes from a book, written in a game, by a fictional author, who is subject to the limited information that the common fictional people in that universe have.

As such the author could be writing down a myth that is perceived as fact by the common people, similar to how in history text books it is written that Paul Revere said" The British are coming" when he didn't.

Actually . the stupid little buggers may be offical canon but its not arrogant to think you're better than the series writers when its such drek. you nay not be official but oftten a blind retarted monkey could be better than the writing in Star Wars prequels. Frankly if you can't see the difference in accepting canaon as canon and not being inferior to poorly written crap you've lost the arguement already.

Star Wars isn't your story, not matter how much you don't like the writing that doesn't mean you can say parts of it "don't exist" or "aren't true". Just like how you can't just say "well Frodo never met Shelob the spider" if you didn't like that part. It isn't your story, it isn't yours to dictate whats right about it.


I don't like Coca Cola, but I can't say they made the drink wrong. they made it exactly as they wanted to and thus its always right no matter of your personal preference on it.

They did/could say it but too late its as they say a deal is a deal. at leat he didn't fail to understand what was his own creation as completely as Lucas his supposed creatio.

Lucas didn't fail to understand his own creation. He failed to model it in the way the fans who arrogantly believed that it was their series wanted to.

very large difference.


Also he could go back and say episodes 1-3 never happened, and it would make it true regardless of the fact the movies exist, he wont but he can.

So what's your take on The Trial of Vivec?

Several Beth writers took part in it. But it's not in game, so it's not canon. Yet its effects can be seen in future works.

You never did answer Lady N either on the Silmarillion, Children of Hurin, Lost Tales of LotR either. Are those not canon?

Such a narrow view, CandleJack. We're not saying that anything unofficial MK writes (or any other dev/ ex-dev, for that matter) is canon - but unless a dev outright comes out and says 'this is not true', unofficial texts are certainly strong possibilities, and there's no more harm in discussing them than there is in members discussing their own ideas. Sure as hell provides more interesting threads than ending it with 'we don't know because there's no official word'.

Bottom line is that, even if a text isn't canon, doesn't rule out the possibility of it being true - and anything that appeals to the (lore) masses as being pretty cool and fitting and being able to work is worthy of discussion.

I don't know if the anology to Star Wars is really apt, because there's a certain sense in which one can say Star Wars is primarily the effort of an individual, with the assistance of various others. TES, however, has been a group effort from the very beginning, with old contributors moving on and new ones joining the ranks. It began with people like Ken Rolston and Ted Peterson. Then people like Michael Kirkbride moved in and mixed things up. Recently Greg Keyes has stirred the pot. Each group builds upon, and, in some cases, slightly alters what has been set down by those before. If you try to think of TES lore as a set of facts about the TES universe, which are the property of a select individual or group of individuals who have the prerogative to add or subtract from it as they see fit, then you've completely misunderstood the nature of TES lore.

Here's the thing: in TES, no source, whether in-game or out of game, can be taken as Absolute Truth. This is partly because these texts reflect the biases of their authors, but there's more to it than that. In TES there is no hard line between official and unofficial lore, because the lore itself is an evolving phenomena. We don't (or shouldn't!) say: Here's the truth, full stop. What we should say instead is: Here's where we stop, because we don't know how to go any further.

The affection for Kirkbride is due to the fact that he has done a wonderful job of explicating evolutionary nature of TES lore within the provenance of the ES universe itself, and in so doing has taken us to the places where we don't know how to go any further. If someone else can take us somewhere else, either further along that line, or in another direction entirely, we'll treat him/her in a similar way.

This.

The Silmarillion, Children of Hurin and Lost Tales LotR Books are canon. When JRR Tolken died his family gained the right to the series and thus can claim canon in his place. Just as while Interplay may have originally made Fallout, Bethesda now owns it and can claim canon.


As for The Trail of Vivec, I again make reference to Star Wars books. Many of them set up explanations for why specific people where at the places they were when they were and without them the movie series would not continue in the way it did. However just because it gives A explanation doesn't mean that it is the RIGHT one.


The canon is whatever the last official word is, when they say something different it will be retconned, then when they say something different again the previous retconn will be retconned.

Canon in long lasting series like the ES are a series of retcons stacked on top of each other.