I need to quick slap in the right direction from some of the seasoned Elder Scrolls loremasters out there. Akatosh comes off to me as a very positive God, but then according the the lore, to the Nords, Akatosh is Alduin, and suddenly Akatosh becomes this world eater set out to ruin our lives. Could someone please shed some light on what is going on here. Thank you much!

Think of it as split personalities. The Aedra, due to being bound to Mundus, change due to mortal thought and belief. Both Akatosh and Alduin are the Dragon God of Time, yet they're capable of acting independent from each other.

In TES, God is dead, but in that hilarious Weekend at Bernie's kind of way. As in, he can be manipulated as per the fickle whim of puny mortals.

All in all, it's an expression of the mundane sociopolitical contexts found on Nirn. The Cyrodiils, with their oh-so-stable era-straddling governments view the passage of time as benign, and so POOF! You have Aka, just your friendly neighborhood Imperial Dragon. Skyrim however is fraught with political turmoil and rabble and revolt (due in no small part to the Nords' firmly individualist social structure, that and the influence of alcohol), and so view time as destructive, every tic, every toc, every fallen grain o' sand in the hourglass is just one more step towards bloody chaos. Ergo, they have ol' curmudgeonly Aldy, whose approach is the death-knell of the cosmos.

Best description of TES metaphysics I've read to date :thumbsup:

Here's something else to think about: Akatosh has supposedly contributed to thwarting Alduin in the past.

I'm starting to think Bethesda made Alduin the big bad of Skyrim just to screw with the Lore Forum.

There is also the factor that Martin mantled Akatosh last time, and only then did Aka intervene to stop Dagon. Alduin, however, is more just a natural force/cycle in the world (ala, time/entropy doing what it does best in the long run: breaking things).

If you take the Altmer's worldview seriously, it is also possible that Alduin/Auriel is trying to free himself from the wheel:

"The Dragon of Cyrodiil is bound in stone, and in time, The Dragon of the North will no longer be." - Chimere Graegyn

"With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden..." - Altmeri Commentary on Talos, by MK

Add in mortal influence of the manifestations of the gods' schizophrenia, and you have a lot of factors in play.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride



Or, should I have spoiler tags around that? :thumbsup:

People need to stop linking to Michael Kirkbride

1. He doesnt work at the company
2. he himself has said less then 1/4 of what he writes is canon

This spreading of misinformation that ES fans seem to love to perpetuate needs to end. Unless it stated in the game itself or was in the two books you cant consider it canon.

Screw with us? No way in hell, a lot of us who frequent this place already knew about this stuff.

It's everyone else that's being trolled.

Right, so, I think the big deal here is that there is less Akatosh in the Time Dragon after Oblivion. The keystone of the Covenant got blown up so Martin could temporarily high(candle?)jack the Dragon's avatar and chew out Dagon, and without its whispering Emperor-Spirits and who-knows-what-mumbo-jumbo the Dragon reverts to his pre-Alessian, pre-Marukhati self. The self of the Dawn, and the self of the Dawn is not nearly as nice. At least that's what I think.



olololol trolls gonna troll.

But Martin didn't mantle Akatosh. He only released his avatar.

Considering this worldview is seen in a majority of the religions in TES see it like that also, I'd say the Nine should be ignored.

If it's not contradicting anything in established lore, it's fine. Using these materials is what allowed the lore forum to figure out what the plot will be before it was revealed and Cipher88's giant post.

How is that a troll?

He doesn't work for bethesda, and he has admitted less then 1/4 of his writings are canon

2 facts =/= troll


That's not how canon works

Kirkbride's stuff is flavor material at best, like all the books in the star wars universe, they build off of canon and use canon material in them but they aren't actually canon themselves.

Looking at the games alone, for a simpler newplayer look on things?

Gods are impossible to understand completely (looking at RL doo dee doo); the elder scrolls provide several cultures with different pantheons and outlooks. Why the Nords think Alduin is a terrible thing? Probably for the same reasons the elves praise and celebrate Auriel. It's a man-way of thinking to defend Creation, so Alduin represents destruction of The Now, which most people don't enjoy. Elves vs Men. They've been butting heads ever since the tortoise beat the hare.

The elves couldn't care less about The Now. It's an elf-way of thinking to escape Mundus, and Auriel is the champion of kicking ass and breaking open prisons. Or so they hope. (ref, The Monomyth. Totally in-game.)

---
It's all just one big cliche. Skyrim's repeating Raiders of the Lost Ark
It's just that Martin opened pandora's box 200 years ago

Where did he admit that less than a quarter of his writings were canon?

From here:http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1112211-how-to-become-a-lore-buff/



Additionally, he does work for Bethesda. He's not an full-time employee, but he's a contractor. I assure you that, if I hire a contractor, that contractor works for me.

Just seems like you really want to perpetuate this argument. You know that the people here don't agree with you and you've heard their arguments, so why keep bringing it up?
Incidentally, though, could you provide the link to where he says that?

If JRR Tolken had written Lord of the rings with another guy and that 2nd guy left to make his own stuff that could be set in the Lord of the rings universe does that mean its canon? Nope. since he isn't working on the books themselves.

After you leave a company your past history with them is disregarded. If Casey Hudson left bioware anything he says about the future of Mass effect would be wrong since he doesn't work there.


The Star wars books

1. Explain apparent errors in the Movies
2. Are in many cases backed up by in-movie references
3. Provide information to study

and yet are ALL non-canon

If you don't mind, I'd still really appreciate you sourcing that quote where MK said that only a quarter of his work was canon.

ugh ill search through forsaken websites to re-find that. Might take me awhile.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, finding a post/quote like that would significantly change my perception of the lore.

You're talking about two other universes, we're talking about TES. You might as well bring up the rules of religious canon. The rules of what is and isn't canon in their world isn't the same as what is and isn't canon in TES. According to Pete, the closest to an official answer we've got, at least some of the texts are canon (he was asked if they are canon, he said "it depends").



This is a perfect example of how you simplify the issue into irrelevancy. Do you consider the Silmarillion and the Children of Hurin canon? Both were written by J.R.R.T, but edited together by his son. What about the Forgotten Tales and other drafts of stories that were never finished? Or how about Tolkien's letters about his setting referencing things that never made it into the published works? Canon is not a yes/no answer, especially in something as expansive, shifting, and ownerless as TES.

I would also love to see you explain all the references to Obscure Texts that have found themselves into published, 100% officially sanctioned games and novels.

They're not non-canon, they're simply a lower level of canon.

I don't see why people ever worshiped every word he says as fact.

Chris Avellone, a video game designer who worked on Fallout 2, Van Buren, and more recently New Vegas, did something similar when he made the Fallout Bible. It was a massive collection of stuff that answered countless plot questions, Lore discrepancies, etc., and people treated it as fact until Chris finally said it isn't until its in the games themselves.

It doesnt matter if you were the lead lore master and wrote a massive books worth of stuff explaining all the lore errors, unless it is in the games themselves or other officially authorized materials it isnt canon.

Hint: we don't.

We see it as interesting material that enriches the universe and allows for more discussion. When "official" sources give us stuff we treat it the same way.

A few responses:

1. Monkey Truth. I acknowledge that it exists. Sounds like you don't. That's okay. My understanding was that MK was extremely involved with the creation and elucidation of lore, particularly in Morrowind. Thus, any lore he contributes is far more likely to be true.

2. The boldness and knowledge with which he speaks gives him an element of authority. You speak with boldness, but I haven't seen the knowledge, yet. If you get there, perhaps I'll accept your claims as authoritative, too.

3. The community seems to acknowledge its legitimacy as canon. Why should the community not be the deciding factor, as opposed to the developer?

Oh, and I do appreciate your looking for that quote, since you quote it as fact.

EDIT: I speak in agreement with Lady Nerevar when she said, "We see it as interesting material that enriches the universe and allows for more discussion. When "official" sources give us stuff we treat it the same way."