Hey guys,

I actually have a pretty basic question for the theological nerds around, but it keeps bugging me.

Everyone keeps insisting Akatosh and Auri-El are one and the same, but just possess different names like Jupiter and Zeus. And yet again, Auri-El has appeared in elven myths for thousands of years and I haven't even once read him being compared to or related to dragons. His myth is strongly tied to Lorkhan, the war with mankind etc.

Akatosh, on the other hand, is first mentioned and appears in Tamrielic reality to Alessia. As far as I know there is no mention of him in any myths before that, and yet he is associated with Time and basically assumes all the roles of Auri-El right until the punishment of Lorkhan. And then... what does Akatosh do with Lorkhan/Shezzar/Shor? Again, no mention of this dragon god whatsoever, not to mention he favours humanity. He has also intervened twice in history, first with the Ayleids then to protect Nirn.

Auri-El, on the other hand, has not manifested his presence in no way whatsoever. Not when innocent Ayleids (as few as they were) were butchered, not when Tiber almost razed Alinor with Numidium, not when the Sload almost annihilated the Altmer, and not when the Nords exterminated the Falmer. Which brings me to the second question: Did the Marukhati succeed in separating Auri-El and Akatosh, and is Auri-El now effectively "dead".

If the game would care to depict Auri-El as a dragon at least once, then I would say "Ok, there is the connection, it makes sense, they are the same god". But it hasn't showed up so far. I know the theory about the Aka oversoul and "two gods one soul" thing, but it still doesnt make sense. It is like Akatosh literally just conjured himself out of nothing. Certainly the nedics or Akaviri would have had him in a myth or two?


So yes, what do you guys think? Please prioritize canon info, but in case you can't answer... I suppose any theory would go xD

Cheers.

If I remember rightly, Akatosh was created by Alessia who fused the Elven Auri-El with the Nordic Alduin. That's the basis for Akatosh, as part of her creation of the religion of the Eight Divines. But Auri-El should in theory have still been in play somewhere.

The split came when the Marukhati Selectives danced on their Tower. This stripped the Merish elements from Akatosh, making him distinct. It may also have severely weakened Auri-El by cutting his mythopoeic image away from Akatosh, but that's a guess.

As far as canonicity goes, the first paragraph of the above is verified by in-game sources. Apart from the last sentence the second paragraph is extrapolation and out-of-game sources, but is a fairly common belief in the lore community. The last sentence is my guess.

I heard a supposition about the nature of the time god...

Auri-el is the beginning. Akatosh is the passage. Alduin is the end.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Faith... There's also this one, from the same text: "The Elven Akatosh is Auri-El."

http://imgur.com/HbEQBsa

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/etada-eight-aedra-eat-dreamer explains it:

"The Aedroth Aka, who goes by so many names as to perhaps already suggest what I'm about to commit to memospore, is completely insane. His mind broke when his "perch from Eternity allowed the day" and we of all the Aurbis live on through its fragments, ensnared in the temporal writings and erasures of the acausal whim that he begat by saying "I AM"."

There is a figure in Akavir called Tosh Raka who supposed managed to become a dragon. The book Mysterious Akavir claims that Tosh Raka was a king of the tiger-like Po Tun that managed to revive the extinct dragon species by becoming one, thereby turning his people into the Ka Po Tun. A lot of what's written in that book is to be taken with a grain of salt. The more likely truth is that Tosh Raka was a mirror brother to Auri-el/Akatosh and the figure described in the book was a Po Tun that managed to mantle Tosh Raka and found a united empire with his people.

As for the needs, they worshipped the constellations as Celestials or Guardians in what little can be found of their culture. There a three constellations, the Thief, the Mage, and the Warrior inwhich a planet, the corpse of an Aedra, serves as the eye. Planet Arkay is the Eye of the Thief. Planet Julianos is known as the Eye of the Sage, aka the Mage, and Planet Akatosh is the Eye of the Warrior. While that is not a dragon, it does illuminate an aspect of Akatosh seen in the tale of the Covenant of Akatosh. In this covenant, Akatosh blesses St. Alessia with dragon blood and the Amulet Kings to maintain the Dragonfires and keep the Gates of Oblivion sealed. In this tale, Akatosh acts as a guardian and the Warrior is known as the first Guardian Constellation. The Warrior himself was figure that Nedes prayed to. Perhaps it should be no surprise then that the term "dragonborn" began with that covenant and that dragonborn rulers, at least the ones that begin a dynasty to maintain the covenant, take the form of warrior with the souls of dragons.

So Akatosh or some form of him does appear in Akaviri and Nedic lore.

As for the connection between Akatosh, Alduin, and Auri-el...well when you subgradiate something as infinite and preter-logical as an Aedra especially in a timey-wimey era as the Mythic, you find these instances where illogic and contradiction do not rule out an account as being true. Take creation myth of Shezarr and the different responses that Auri-el and Akatosh have despite (possibly) being mirror brothers of the same Aedra. Auri-el sought vengeance against Shezarr for being tricked into diminishing himself for the sake of creation, yet Akatosh was pleased with creation and takes on a further role to protect it from Oblivion. So which was it? Was the Time God pleased with Mundus and now works to protect it, or was he wrathful and now hopes bring an end to it? Well I think a complete et'Ada's cognitive processes, by nature of its existence, cannot be anything near quantifiable or comprehensible as a mortal mind. So we have to ball park it with a little imagination:

An individuals does tend to be a plurality of wills with conflicting goals and desires sometimes to the point of developing disociative identities. Now imagine if the Judeo Christian God had disociative identity disorder, was slightly less omnipotent and omnipresent, and you'd have an explanation for how the God of the Old Testament, the God of the New Testament, and the God of the Quran could all be the same deity.

Think of it like that (although I'm probably wrong) and you might see how the Time God was both disgusted and enchanted with creation; how the Time God wants to preserve and undo creation; finally, how the Time God is both a World Eating Dragon, a Divine of the Sun, and a Warrior who defends Nirn. Each mirror reflects a different side to an infinitely sided form.

Thank you for the answers guys! Some of these sources I know and they assert what we all know so far, but it does frame a nice debate.

I particularly want to look at RedDingo's explanation, I can't believe I forgot about Mysterious Akavir, and the Nedic connection between Warrior constellation and Akatosh, which is still a bit of a stretch.

Still, I don't fully agree that Auri-El desires to destroy Mundus. That he is resentful of Lorkhan is clear, but at the same time, he clearly showed his followers how to escape the mortal plane. Whatever the actual means, which should probably be one of the six ways, he did ascend to the heavens in full observance, which should be his ultimate legacy. While it's logical to assume he would like to see Nirn terminated, at the same time I think until the Marukhati foolishness he was pretty much in league with Akatosh - whether it was a tragedy or not, creation is a fact and the least that can be done is to look after our direct descendants on Nirn, the mortals. I have a personal theory that the Psijic Endeavor, of the actual Psijic Order, is the long-forgotten teaching of Auri-El and the way he transcended Nirn - probably the mysterious process of "dracochrysalis". Just like Akatosh has real, physical children in Nirn (the dragons), so does Auri-El (the Altmer and Bosmer), and I think he is either chilling in Aetherius or is somewhere within Akatosh's plane, but still cares for his actual children. Probably the stone of the Crystal-like-Law was the body of the very first mortal child of Auri-El and Mara, and thus the first Aldmer in existence. Either way, I think the Thalmor madness is really, really exaggerated. It's like saying that muslim terrorists represent the true teachings and intentions of Allah, which is certainly not true. Auri-El already gave away his greatest legacy to the Aldmer and ascended. The Thalmor are just too blind to see it.

But yes, really good answer RedDingo Thanks for taking the time!