Now people, this discovery is seriously going to blow your mind. From the great game series The Elder Scrolls, I have played for not very long now (I got it around November 2012) and have realized many interesting things about it, but after I discovered this, it completely blew my mind away! I honestly must say I have only played The Elder Scrolls V and IV (Oblivion and Skyrim). I am sure most of you are aware of the giant statue that now lies in the center of the empire, if not, it is a giant statue of Martin Septim after saving the world by lighting the Dragonfires.

This is my first post, so do not expect any of the fancy stuff you see on here. I mainly signed up on here to post this, for this is an amazing discovery!

(When I can I will put the pictures on here. For now I will have to wait until I am given permission, sorry I couldn't put them on yet, but I will!)

Martin Septim's Statue that now houses in the former Temple of the One [1]. --Pay no attention to the statements with [#] at the end. Those were originally supposed to be pictures, but then I figured out I could not post them, and I was just to lazy to erase them, so instead I wrote this... For some reason unknown.

Now, many of you may or may not know, that Martin Septim saved the world by sacrificing himself during The Oblivion Crisis. Martin Septim is an Imperial male, young age, and (was) heir to the Royal Throne.

Martin Septim. Imperial, Male, and (was) heir to the Royal Throne. Also is a descendant of Tiber Septim (Talos) [2].

[!SPOILER ALERT!] At the near-end of the Oblivion Crisis Martin Septim did give up his life to save all of Tamriel by lighting the Dragonfires, even after the Daedric Prince Mehrunes Dagon had come to Tamriel. He, of course, didn't die from lighting the Dragonfires, but with the Amulet of Kings (an artifact given to the Septim Blood-line by Akatosh) and lighting the Dragonfires was he able to transform into the Avatar of Akatosh. After defeating the power-mad Prince, it was not possible for him to transform back to human shape, and so he shouted (like actually screamed to the sky, not like a dragon shout in Skyrim) in the sky, and turned into stone, as seen in Picture 1. Below are some more pictures of before and after The Oblivion Crisis.

Martin Septim transforming into the Avatar of Akatosh. Also to the left, that is Mehrunes Dagon [3].

The Battle for the Imperial City (Capitol of Cyrodiil). Also some Dremora and an Oblivion portal [4].

Martin Septim as the Avatar of Akatosh (Getting closer to The Great Discovery!) [5].

Mehrunes Dagon in his true form in Tamriel [6].

An Oblivion Portal, inside will be a Sigil Stone for the player to take and close the portal (until the Daedra create a new one atleast) [7].

[END OF SPOILERS]

Now then, furthermore with my discovery. As many of you may know, Akatosh, is the Daedric Prince of Dragons, and time. As we all know 'time' is very confusing, but yet so simple. Also, before I continue anymore, I must say this, there is a loading screen in Skyrim saying once Martin lit the Dragonfires, Akatosh defeated Mehrunes Dagon. Akatosh being the Daedric Prince of Time (basically 'confusion') is it possible that before Martin lit the Dragonfires, Akatosh was not even created (by created I mean like 'born' or anything similar) yet. Is it possible that Martin, all along, had in him dragon blood in him (not like being a Dragonborn but like just a little cause of his ancestor Talos (who WAS Dragonborn))? Is it possible a future Akatosh went into the past to make it so complicated as this: Akatosh created Martin so Martin could create Akatosh? Is that how their cycle had worked? Cause as many know and I have said many times, Martin did turn into Akatosh's Avatar at the end. Is it possible? And also in the past (before future Akatosh had to make a huge confusion (possibly)) when I say Akatosh had not been created yet, I also meant that people still believe in him. I am sorry if you think is a waste of your time, but as I said it is an complicated riddle-like ... thing ... Any way that was The Great Discovery. Leave a comment, tell your friends, and like it (or whatever you can do that you can do on here, as I said, I just made this account and did not look at much at what you can do.)

------------ The Epics Hero [TEH]

Also, if someone can, I would like a picture of the loading screen text in The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim of the piece I mentioned earlier. " Also, before I continue anymore, I must say this, there is a loading screen in Skyrim saying once Martin lit the Dragonfires, Akatosh defeated Mehrunes Dagon". If you can I will be very thankful.

(When I can I will put the Sources of this Forum).

Now also, lets all just thank Bethesda for making such epic games, series, and stories! All hail Bethesda! (I am not a worshipper of anyone. I just love their games and series (most of them atleast)).

~~[TEH]~~

A mod should move this to the lore forum.

Although, I honestly am not sure where to start with your post. I am too tired to explain everything. I will just report your post and hopefully it gets moved to the right section.

Oops, I did not see that other Elder Scrolls section. I just saw The Elder Scrolls and thought that was it.

Ahahahahahaha no.

The big glaring obvious flaw in this is that Akatosh is not a Daedric Prince of anything. He's an Aedra. Furthermore, his creation is already a known quantity. He was created by Alessia when she formulated the Eight Divines as a compromise pantheon between the Ayleidic Elven and Nordic Mannish pantheons. That is, Akatosh is a fusion of Auri-El and Alduin. Basically, he's one name for the overall Time Dragon.

I'm not sure where the very idea of Martin creating Akatosh to become him after he was retroactively blessed by him came from...

Ya, as the others said Akatosh is an Aedra not Daedra, big difference there.

As far as I understand, when martin became the avatar, this nulled the need for the dragonfires somehow, I don't quite remember why.

As far as your idea of Martin creating Akatosh, I can't say I follow. There isn't any sort of proof or even any hint to this sort of thing nor is their any sort of connection between Martin and Akatosh directly. The only connection is Martin becoming this avatar which is simply a manifestation of Akatosh threw the amulet of kings and possibly the bit of dragon blood in the Talos family lineage. There just isn't any sort of true connection besides that though. Your speculation is purely that, speculation. While I don't think there is any way this is possible or true it's not an idea that can be.... disproved I guess?

This is why people shouldn't do drugs SMH

Technically, the fact that Akatosh is an Imperial invention makes him a Daedra by default. Daedra = "not our ancestor".

C'mon, now. Posts like these serve no one.

As detailed in the posts above, there is no real in- or out-game proof to back up any of your hypotheses regarding Akatosh being created by Martin's sacrifice. You are correct in that Akatosh had never manifested physically as a big ol' fiery dragon before that moment, but that doesn't mean he didn't exist. Where divine things are concerned in TES, to exist is a very fluid and uncertain thing, as a lot of them are asleep or only manifest in weird ways--or not at all. But Akatosh existed as an idea way back during the formation of the First Empire, when Alessia "created" him as a fusion of the Aldmeri ancestor spirit of time "Auri-El" and the inexcorable Nordic world-eating dragon Alduin. She did this to make a cosmopolitan Imperial pantheon that pleased the greatest amount of people. In this way, you could say that Alessia created Akatosh.

Did Akatosh "exist" before Alessia invented the idea of him? He sure did, but not until people started believing he existed, at which point he always existed. Make sense? No? No problem. That view on the matter can be argued against, just like almost everything else in the Elder Scrolls' poetic and contradictory mythology. Welcome to the Lore Forums, my friend, http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/dogate_til_fishystick.jpg

Based on some factual errors in your original post (namely Akatosh being a Daedra) I am going to assume you are inexperienced when it comes to the Elder Scrolls and its universe. No worries, serjo, it's never too late or too early to jump in. I recommend you spend some time reading both these forums and the wealth of information available in in-game books so that you can hold your own in the discussions here and ask more informed questions in the future. There are some very helpful resources in my signature as well. Never be afraid to ask questions (feel free to PM me or any of the folks around here if you have any at all) and keep an open mind. You won't regret it.

Good luck.

You're mixing definitions and beliefs between races. The Altmer would define "Daedra" as you do, but the Dunmer would say Deadra = "our better, stronger ancestors". To the Imperials, whom Akatosh is a god of, Daedra are the demonic denizens of Oblivion. He certainly doesn't qualify with that definition.

If you mix definitions and beliefs between races like that, you get crazy results such as all the Divines being Daedra. The mannish races see themselves as the creation of the gods, not their descendants, so taking the Altmeri definition that Daedra = "not our ancestor" and applying it to mannish beliefs, it would make Akatosh, Kyne, Shor, Arkay, etc, all Daedra. So it's best to match Altmeri definitions with Altmeri beliefs, and Imperial definitions with Imperial beliefs.

I actually think this might be a troll. If I'm wrong I apologize... but taking your rather out-there conclusions and advertising them as "mindblowing," "important" and the "greatest discovery in all of TES" just reeks of baitiness. And all of the disorganized bits of text, several of them from kinda dubious sources, the part about "Hail Bethesda (lol I don't worship them)" and signing the post with your name?

No, Akatosh came before Martin. Martin wouldnt have dragon amulet if Akatosh didnt came before him.

Doctor Who's faillogic makes people get complicated on time

Hold on, though. The amulet is invested with mythopeoic energy by generations of belief -- it is a talisman for the entire Empire, but has no palpable powers. Martin then incarnates the Dragon in a moment of crisis. At this point, like Vivec, he exists outside of time and has always been the Dragon God. The new god then retcons the amulet as his own gift to himself because [reasons].

There are problems and errors, but it's not the worst theory I've heard.

Well, time in TES is at least as complicated as in Dr. Who. If anything, Doctor Who helps to understand time in TES.

Awesome to see a new poster with such enthusiasm for the lore.

Don't worry, we all have wrongheaded ideas in the beginning, this comes from mulling theories over to ourselves again and again without any peer-review because there simply aren't that many people to discuss TES with in the non-online world. Now that you've found your way here the journey is just beginning, there are so many wonderful bits of lore I bet you never even imagined existed to discover.

You're quite right that the Aedric god of time would have no trouble existing before he was born and that is in fact exactly what we think happened, only not during the time of the Oblivion crisis.

When slave-queen http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Alessia was assembling a pantheon suitable for her fledgling empire she ran into trouble with the most popular chief deity, Auri-El. He is a decidedly elven god and his promise of an escape from Creation did not fit mannish beliefs. So Alessia and her Marukhati Selectives performed some dangerous Dawn-magics on White-Gold tower with the intent of removing merish influences from Auri-El. This caused a http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Where_Were_You_..._Dragon_Broke lasting 1008 years, a period of time without linear time commonly referred to as the Middle Dawn.

After that Akatosh existed and of course always had.

All Alessia really did is name him. The Marukhati didn't do their thing until a thousand years later, and, as far as we know, their attempt to purge elven influences from Akatosh failed.

Good catch, I had that bit muddled together in my recollection.

I don't think they failed, really.

The Eight Falling Stars that each civilisation tracked seem suspiciously like the Divines to me and it has always been my belief that before the Middle Dawn the Imperial Pantheon as we know it did not exist, and after it they always had existed, Akatosh in particular.

They claim otherwise but Vivec says they are liars and biters and this would be a very fundamental untruth.

I am also reminded of http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1249697-on-boethiahs-summoning-day/, which suggests a sort of game of musical chairs going on that decides which particular deity becomes a Divine this time around.

I know it is apocryphal but it is beautiful and lends credence to my theories.

Its not complication, I like doctor who and i watch it. But writers sometimes to epicfail logics about time.

They do.

My favorite is when an sf show pulls an 'Time has been changed so now we don't remember what happened' to explain why their time-travelling characters don't recall the time travelling, which is complete physics baloney. What happens stays happened.

Martin does not become Akatosh, he becomes an Avatar of the god meaning he is transformed into a earthly representation of Akatosh because Akatosh himself can not enter Nirn. Like the other Aedra they can not enter Nirn like the Daedra can. So they have to work via priests and Avatars.

While transformed Martin has a portion of power given to him by the god Akatosh but this consumes his mortal form.

No offense, but read up on the lore before posting, OP. Makes everything simpler.

Akatosh existed since time began, and he is and Aedra, not a Daedra.

*reads up to "Akatosh is the Deadric prince of Dragons"* *leaves*

In Doctor Who? I generally like the time travel theories in Doctor Who... far better than Star Trek and the likes. And closer to the TES conception of time.

What exactly do you mean with "epicfail" in that regard?

Because it is that simple to "read up on lore"... TES lore can be a Quagmire (no pun intended).

Of course his ideas are wrongheaded, but we shouldn't be that harsh on an enthusiastic newcommer.