Right, Lorkhan is an archetype; the rebel's always the rebel. When the actor assumes the mantle of king, the mantle of Lorkhan passes to another.

I agree, Akavir's Tamriel's undertow.

I think the real question here is what the Tsaesci think of the Daedra.

Calling the Tsaesci mannish is off mark. Padomaic is truer. Jara is tangentially right.


The Princes of Misrule are the spirit of opposition to Aedric oppression. The Tsaesci developed beyond both, as a hatchling leaves its brood.

I honestly don't know if we're agreeing and to what extent, Rasu the Pilot. But that's okay because not knowing is half the fun. With that in mind:

Fragments from the journal of Catulius the censured (a missionary who stayed briefly at Ionith), a document that unfortunately periodically lapses into untranslatable (heretical really) cartographic [binary]code:
...Akavir is the land of (mirrored?) Convention... where the gods in their deepest deep places, their palaces of us, unmade the Dragon (of that land) by removing his mind and placing it on the highest (perch?)... that was the beginning of Day... or a petty allowance...

Would this be why the Sharmat saw a sideways eight when he looked upon the Mundus from the Dreamsleeve?
edit: Eight seems to appear a lot even in conjecture.

I don' think so, Annotated Anuad calls them mannish and they also play the same role in Mysterious Akavir as do man in Monomyth.

If that's your preference. I don't like the racialism; mannish is true, but Padomaic is truer. That's all.

Perhaps the idea of the mythic importance of the opposite side of the world plays into this part. The Anu/Padomay duality is certainly central to the lore, and methinks that the other known, large inhabited continent is simply the "other side of the coin."

Perhaps the golden-skin/goblin as slave argument for them being anologues of the modern altmer is correct, but perhaps the Ehlnofey war looked different on Akavir. I'm still thinking through the possible ramifications of if that were true. Not awake enought yet, and I'm afraid to sleep-drunk type. lol.

Sure. A sideways eight has the same shape as a sideways wheel; a tower.


As far as the myth is concerned those are the same thing.

I understand this, which is why I can swap mannish for Padomaic.

:thumbsup:


I followed you until there. Lorkhan is synonymous with Rebel and Akatosh is synonymous with King. They're archetypes; moving Lorkhan to Kingdom is just to say he's Auriel, right? The King is always an Auriel, and the Rebel is always a Lorkhan.

It's true that the wandering Ehlnofey that settled in Akavir became the Tsaesci, so yes, I can accept the "mannishness" implied with that. The Annotated Anuad even calls them men. Fine. But I disagree that "man" has to equal "Padomay".

The fact is, the Tsaesci have more in common with elves than they do with humans. Golden skin. Eating the world (presumably as a means of achieving/maintaining divinity). Having some clear parallels with the Aldmeri Dominion (naval superiority for one, and opposing a dragon emperor). Being long-lived (as a result of replacing the Aedra, and the spoke/wheel/tower-ness that comes with it). Enslaving goblins.

It's basically a parallel universe. Except, instead of Kennedy never being assassinated, we've got men who act like elves, and elves (tigers) who act like men.

The Tsaesci joined the Padomaic side of the dichotomy.

"They ate them" means the Tsaesci took the place of man, and they're going to do the whole "man" thing, better. That's how they began; the Tsaesci usurped the "Yellow Threat" of the bad lore. I notice their similarity to the Hunger of Satakal. The Tsaesci are the consuming hunger of Akavir. How about Alinor's Dragon Emperor, who is the mirror-brother of Tosh Raka.

That's not what I meant. When the Sharmat looked at Mundus from the center of all things he saw the false symbolism: the eight turned on its side, the infinity sign. This was false because he saw the all where the one was true. The Lessons say as much.
He saw the eight-infinity because of Tamriel and Akavir. They were each one of its lobes.

Sure, the Tsaesci took the place of men, and men typically go for the Padomaic (ie Lorkhan good, Akatosh bad) side of things. But that's inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. And as for the king of Alinor, what, something wrong with the Septims? All that dragon symbolism they wrap themselves in isn't exactly powerless.

Actually, you mentioned a similarity to the hunger of Satakal (who in turn resembles Alduin).

I think what we're looking at is a Redguard-type situation. The Redguards believe that their version of Lorkhan, Sep (The Serpent, no less!) was driven crazy by Satakal's hunger, while Tall Papa (Akatosh) shows mortals how to persist beyond one lifetime, which could be seen as the usual mannish way of living through one's children. In Yokudan mythology, the roles of Lorkhan and Akatosh are switched from their usual human positions. Lorkhan is the crazy one, while Akatosh is the one with mannish values.

As in, the Redguards (and IMO, the Tsaesci) are men who act like elves.

I mean, this isn't a perfect argument, but I think it's a good starting point, as it shows that the standard Human-Padomay, Elf-Anu isn't necessarily the be all and end all.

Yes it's the same, but also different (enough of them to make Tamriel Tamriel and Akavir Akavir). Keep in mind that before his heart was removed Lorkhan was the king and Akatosh the rebel.
"Missing" isn't the end of the story. Shezzarines abound in the history of Tamriel, while Akatoshines don't. Talos is the most potent one, going as far as taking Shezzar's (empty) place in the pantheon. Now if one raises one's right hand the mirror-image raises it's left. With this in mind (and the correlation between Ka'Po'Tun and the Empire). It's a smal leap to asume that Tosh'Raka filled a simular (empty) space, and yet he is Akatosh not Shezzar.

Also, another fragment:
...The land of the heart and the land of the dragon are brothers, and thus they are enemies (that is continental enantiomorph)... This is why they invade and we invade and they invade again as the awful fighting always begins anew...

Not the same Dragon Emperor. Talos is the Enantiomorph, Tosh Raka's one head.

It never has been, Mundus is gray. The interplay of Anu and Padomay emanates from every man's imprisoned heart. Which is why I'll prefer Padomaic to mannish. Which men?

In their opposition to the king, the Tsaesci are rebels. They are the Padomaics. To be Padomaic is to seethe rebellion. Tosh Raka and his Tiger Dragon Empire is the king, who could be the rebel? To be a king is to be the antithesis of Lorkhan. If Lorkhan was the exalted king, he would be Auriel. He would not be Padomaic. Swapping their names is the same as calling the king a rebel. The king is Auriel and the rebel is Lorkhan, if Lorkhan were to be the king, he would not be Lorkhan, he would be Auriel.

Page 1: Tsaesci are borg (sorta but, y'know, cooler).
Page 2: Continental dualism.
It's time to move on before we become a broken record (atleast I'm exhausted unto repetition), and we've lots of ground left to cover.
Page 3: A thousand crazy monkeys or a horde of seasonal demons, anyone's pick. Both are ripe for conjecture.

George Carlin as the Sun Wukong?

Good. I like it. Someone needs to bash the mythic system, cause without the love it just isn't working.

Let's see...
(Edited as inspired below)

From the intelligence gathered in preparation for the glorius invasion of Akavir by the servants of his most sovereing imperial majesty Uriel V:
There is no sovereign ruler of Tang Mo. Any monkey can and will be king* if he or she feels like it and the rest will adjust (as much so as monkeys do anything) accordingly, that is until another, louder claimant shows up. Most islands grudgingly stabilize at about one king for every eight inhabitants however. Being a king (however briefly) seems to entail few tasks or duties beyond the performance of ritualized public rants, the contents of which can only be described as a special kind of derranged blasphemy. Most of these ranting-ceremonies last only a few minutes and cause little if any harm. Occasinally, however, a particularly (un)zealous king may rant for days, ending only with his or her own explotion. Such a death is hailed by all as a most auspicious event sparking general revelry among all monkeys pressent. Curiously, few if any other monkeys (even former kings) aknowledge the signifacance or implications of the rant-kings. Most appear to conceive of their performances as little more than ritual entertainment.

* An acceptable misnomer as the litteral translation of the Tang Mo word is the, near gibberish, expression Seeing-Hearing-Speaking.

An interesting fact about the monkeys is that all evil present in them is of their own devising. Anything that offends their visual, oral, or audial senses is immediately blocked out and blacked out.

But of course!

Amended above.

Kamal and Tang-Mo are the tricky bits of Akavir to me, as I don't see any direct Tamriellic anologues, and even less explicit information on them, but I could be missing something.

It is somewhat fascinating as well that Kamal is the only non-Tsaesci race of Akavir to invade Tamriel. Also because it took Almalexia and the Underking to take down Ada-Soom Dir Kamal (spelling?) what mythic importance could he or the collective race have in order to be able to give those two a challenge?

I also wonder, with regard to Kamal if given the Akavir as inverse-Tamriel notion if these aren't their perceptions of some sort of Daedra? [Fire-Deadlands = Ice-Kamal] Also this might have implications if their is no pact keeping Daedra out for Akavir. (Grasping at straws on that one methinks)

Tang-Mo seems to be a reference to a care-free aspect of human nature.

Also the prophet Marukh, was he explicitly stated as being Imga? I wonder if that's some kind of hint to their role if he wasn't.

I also wonder if the Hist only managed to end up in Tamriel.

The Nords have "thawed," and so invaded Tamriel, then its Heartlands.

Tang Mo are fiercely libertine, and they make no apologies. Marukh was a prophet, an exception. No prophet is welcome in his own lands, among his own people. When comparing Imga and Tang Mo, it might be best to leave out Marukh.

I thought Maruhk was a monkey. Literally. Not a beast person but an honest to goodness two foot tall monkey that talked.

Didn't MK once say not to take things in lore metaphorically? He was adamant that the Tsaeci are literally vampiric snake men. Morihaus was literally a bull with wings, not just a man with bullish tendencies, etc.

I like to imagine Maruhk as a monkey standing on a tall rock screaming and hooting in broken Tamrielic as his human followers kneel around him.

When I picture Maruhk I see http://www.travelwithachallenge.com/Images/Travel_Article_Library/Trinidad/Trinidad-Adventure/Red-Howler-Monkey.jpg.

For the Tang Mo more http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iUMWy4hqAg.

Curse the backspace key and afterthought. lol. But then I presume this would be part of the whole "upside-down" Tamriel thing as, if Mysterious Akavir is to be believed they thaw out and invade every year and are repulsed by Tang-Mo. Meaning that these Nords fail at invading the Continent and do not possess the Talos figure needed to force them into center stage. Unless one assumes that Ada-Soom Dir Kamal is actually a mirror of Uriel V, and he had a "Disaster at Vvardenfell."

This might also preassume that the Tsaesci/Ka'Po'Tun-centric era of Akavir is actually the past if it happened to be true. Its also possible that the Kamal simply represent an impotent variation of the Nordic martial threat to the rest of Tamriel.