"Alchemy doesn't matter that much anymore"

Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:36 am

I don't think what Todd Howard meant to say was that "achemy doesn't matter anymore", but that which category the skill is placed in doesn't matter much anymore. I know I misunderstood at first too, but after hearing the full answer, I think saying that the distinction between magic, stealth and combat doesn't matter much anymore is a more logical interpretation, because in past Elder Scrolls games, this was primarily used together with the class system, wherein a class could specialize in one of the three categories, which gave bonuses to skills under it. But since the class system has been removed, it's really not important anymore. I guess the answer was not worded the best way it could have been, since it caused a misunderstanding, but that just goes to show that sometimes, one needs to pause to think about these things.



Actually, I've always found the idea of alchemy as a magic skill a little strange too, after all, you're not actually casting any spells, nor are you really doing anything overtly supernatural. You're just mixing two or more ingredients to get a potion with a desired effect. I suppose you could argue that the effects themselves are magical in nature, because no matter what combination of herbs you use in real life, you probably won't get a mixture that lets you breathe underwater or glow in the dark. But practicing alchemy in itself doesn't seem to require specifically being skilled in magic. The way I see it, it would just require knowing what ingredients have what effect and how to mix them to get the best results, but you don't need actual magic to use it. And if you look at it from another perspective, there's some logic to making alchemy a stealth skill since it includes poison making, and I'm assuming that's still in the game, and traditionally, the use of poisons is associated with assassins, who are generally stealth characters. Alone, I wouldn't say it justifies alchemy being a stealth skill, but together with other factors Bethesda no doubt considered, I think it supports the choice. Of course, that sort of thing doesn't matter that much anyway, once the class system is removed.

But in any case, this is an issue of game mechanics, really, Bethesda wanted to ensure that each category had six skills, so they put alchemy into stealth, being as magic already had five magic schools and enchanting, or would you say enchanting somehow fits stealth better? If one skill that used to be a magic skill needs to go into stealth, than alchemy is really the only option where it can in any way be argued that it's appropriate.


This
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Crystal Clear
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:15 am

i wish it had a deep alchemy system like the witcher
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flora
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:02 am

And this is why Todd said "It doesn't matter." Besides, as Alchemy(Which functions more like chemistry in TES) works without anyone spending any magicka or drawing on known spells, it's not a magical ability. It's a skilled ability, which is the realm of a thief.

Knowing what substances can do what when mixed together can be as critical to the success of a thief as a knowing how to manipulate a lock's inner workings, another science not visible to the untrained eye (What do you see with a lock? A Box with a hole in it.

Oh no! A magic force is keeping me from opening this door because it has a box with a hole in it stuck on its side! What's this guy doing? He's putting a silly-looking piece of bent metal in the hole! What does the incantation "Comm awn yestu pidlok" mean? Huh? The door opens now! MAGIC!

And as far as why speechcraft is a Theif ability: the ability to fast-talk the guards out of arresting you, convince a noble that it's his best interest to name you his sole inheritor, complete with advance payment, and be suave enough to steal a woman's virtue right in front of her. (See the book The Thief of Virtue.)

And Alchemy in Nirn is not Alchemy on Earth. All it is in Nirn is IKEA Supernatural Energy Drinks


no i still disagree, perhaps its because of how deep alchemy really goes, but seriosuly...its not just all about 'lemme turn some leaves into a potion'. its not. its a spiritual step towards godliness, its entreating your mind, and you put a portion of atcual life force into alchemy. ask any real word alchemist, theres a large possbility of death/insanity. like ya, its magick without using magicka, but there's a reason youre not using magicka...because you're taking the living magicka force that is everywhere and utilizing it as if it WERE a spell, just at no cost to your own magicka. smoke bombs and traps and all that thiefly stuff is TINKERING. The kind of stuff sotha sil got all wet over. creating potions and changing the properties of physical elements is ALCHEMY. the kind of stuff only MAGES would care about.

lore is nothing anymore, end of story. all this 'no birthsign' talk and whatnot, it drives me nuts. what happened to the actual MEAT of TES? ESTABLISH SOMETHING SKYRIM, ESTABLISH SOMETHING!!!
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Chloe Yarnall
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:11 am

no i still disagree, perhaps its because of how deep alchemy really goes, but seriosuly...its not just all about 'lemme turn some leaves into a potion'. its not. its a spiritual step towards godliness, its entreating your mind, and you put a portion of atcual life force into alchemy. ask any real word alchemist, theres a large possbility of death/insanity. like ya, its magick without using magicka, but there's a reason youre not using magicka...because you're taking the living magicka force that is everywhere and utilizing it as if it WERE a spell, just at no cost to your own magicka. smoke bombs and traps and all that thiefly stuff is TINKERING. The kind of stuff sotha sil got all wet over. creating potions and changing the properties of physical elements is ALCHEMY. the kind of stuff only MAGES would care about.

lore is nothing anymore, end of story. all this 'no birthsign' talk and whatnot, it drives me nuts. what happened to the actual MEAT of TES? ESTABLISH SOMETHING SKYRIM, ESTABLISH SOMETHING!!!
Can you cite your sources on where Alchemy's like that in Tamriel?
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Tarka
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:57 am

Can you cite your sources on where Alchemy's like that in Tamriel?


where alchemy is like what?
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pinar
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:51 am

Ok I think I will try to voice my understanding of the argument in this thread because many of those debating actually sound reasonable and are not trying to argue for the sake of it.

This debate has a classic fallacy premise that I will try to describe to the best of my abilities. The fallacy is the question itself. What does alchemy belong to more, Stealth or Magic? Now we should clearly define what role each term plays in the argument. Stealth is hardly worth mentioning but to be thorough:

Stealth (as defined in the Merriam-Webster online dictionary):
1
a archaic : theft
b obsolete : something stolen
2
: the act or action of proceeding furtively, secretly, or imperceptibly
3
: the state of being furtive or unobtrusive
4
: an aircraft-design characteristic consisting of oblique angular construction and avoidance of vertical surfaces that is intended to produce a very weak radar return

And the much more relative and subjective to context term magic:

Magic (as defined in the Merriam-Webster online dictionary):
1
a : the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces
b : magic rites or incantations
2
a : an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source
b : something that seems to cast a spell : enchantment
3
: the art of producing illusions by sleight of hand

I will throw in a brief summary of the etymology of magic because I feel the brevity of the definition above doesn't really convey the totality of the word:
late 14c., "art of influencing events and producing marvels," from O.Fr. magique, from L. magice "sorcery, magic," from Gk. magike (presumably with tekhne "art"), fem. of magikos "magical," from magos "one of the members of the learned and priestly class," from O.Pers. magush, possibly from PIE *magh- "to be able, to have power" (see machine). Displaced O.E. wiccecr?ft (see witch); also drycr?ft, from dry "magician," from Ir. drui "priest, magician" (see druid). Transferred sense of "legerdemain, optical illusion, etc." is from 1811. Magic carpet first attested 1909. Magic Marker (1956) is a reg. trademark (U.S.) by Speedry Products, Inc., Richmond Hill, N.Y. Magic lantern "optical instrument whereby a magnified image is thrown upon a wall or screen" is 1690s, from Mod.L. laterna magica.


You will notice that the word magic and the word machine have similar origins. Now a machine itself might be very "magical" to someone who is not privy to the way it operates. Even better, take somebody who hasn't been exposed to an industrialized nation before (often the best way to describe this is imagine going back in time with a working cell phone or computer) and their perspective of our day to day machines are very magical to them. So magic is subjective to perception.

The term alchemy as described in the wiki article is properly defined as a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protoscience. What this means in layman terms is scientific theory that does not follow a logically orthodox premise. It is easy to think of examples. Let's say that I would like to test whether or not playing major fifths on a piano near someone who is sick will help them to recover. Well, that doesn't sound logical. So the protoscience tests to see whether or not this would take place. In the case of alchemy people wanted metal to be turned into gold. That was their main goal. Sound logical? No, but they were going to test it out by implementing dubious practices like combining ingredients etc.

Here is the etymology of the word:

mid-14c., from O.Fr. alchimie (14c.), alquemie (13c.), from M.L. alkimia, from Arabic al-kimiya, from Gk. khemeioa (found c.300 C.E. in a decree of Diocletian against "the old writings of the Egyptians"), all meaning "alchemy." Perhaps from an old name for Egypt (Khemia, lit. "land of black earth," found in Plutarch), or from Gk. khymatos "that which is poured out," from khein "to pour," related to khymos "juice, sap" [Klein, citing W. Muss-Arnolt, calls this folk etymology]. The word seems to have elements of both origins.

Mahn ... concludes, after an elaborate investigation, that Gr. khymeia was probably the original, being first applied to pharmaceutical chemistry, which was chiefly concerned with juices or infusions of plants; that the pursuits of the Alexandrian alchemists were a subsequent development of chemical study, and that the notoriety of these may have caused the name of the art to be popularly associated with the ancient name of Egypt. [OED]

The al- is the Arabic definite article, "the." The art and the name were adopted by the Arabs from Alexandrians and thence returned to Europe via Spain. Alchemy was the "chemistry" of the Middle Ages and early modern times; since c.1600 the word has been applied distinctively to the pursuit of the transmutation of baser metals into gold, which, along with the search for the universal solvent and the panacea, were the chief occupations of early chemistry.


Now assuming that much of the magic that happens in Tamriel has some kind of source, or some kind of science to it to somebody meaning that it is comprehensible, than alchemy, being a science first (testing out what ingredients do what) might be magical to some people but not everyone. Just like a machine might be magical to someone, or how the tides of the sea work might be magical to someone it is not magical to everyone. That being the case, whether or not alchemy belongs in the magic definition is subjective to circumstance and perception. By nature it shouldn't, alchemy should have an explanation. This being a game though, you must assume that those explanations for how things are working have not been thoroughly discovered.

So now where does that leave us at? It leaves us with the question of where alchemy belongs, "In Stealth or Magic?". The answer is that the question is flawed because it doesn't really belong in either. It is almost like saying, "Does alchemy belong in Red or Blue?" Well it belongs in red to some people because that is how they perceive alchemy, as belonging in red. But the question isn't logical, so the answers will be equally illogical.

This is how I understand the argument but feel free to give me a stern rebuttal :)
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Devin Sluis
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:30 pm

where alchemy is like what?

Some spiritual step to godliness, and not DIY energy drinks?
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darnell waddington
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:25 pm

Would you distinguish in Nirn, a difference between Alchemy and Herbalism?


Herbalism as its regarded today on Earth, would be Nirn's alchemy in its simplest form. It would be a strong understanding of the effects, that the consumption of individual ingredients have on the body and the mind, as well as an understanding of how best to process, refine and administer those indiviual ingredients to yield the most desirable effect. But alchemy doesn't stop there, and can become infinitely more complex and 'scientific", which is why I say to master such a skill would take a mage's intellect and mentality(in most cases). But because of its roots in 'herbalism'(get it :shakehead: ) I have to argue that alchemy wouldn't be perceived as magickal by the average people of Nirn.
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priscillaaa
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:31 am

Alchemy is in Stealth category because Thieves, Assassins, Rangers and such will use them more then Mages (who have spells for those effects... one of the things I learned in both MW and OB was that Alchemy skill was a waste of time for my Mages (who are my main characters) and mostly useful to my Stealth characters) and Warriors (who try to endure it most of the time). Since in terms of realism, Alchemy doesn't fit either of the three categories, it is put into Stealth class for terms of game balance.

As for Invisibility potion... I doubt anyone with low Alchemy skill will be able to make them now. MW and OB had both Spellcasting and Alchemy use the Spell Effect System... since that system is no longer used in Spellcasting and new spell effects can't be transfered to potions, Alchemy will certainly no longer be the same as it was before (in other words, we will certainly no longer have ingredients that have spell effects which when mixed together make a potion of that spell effect... we will probably have receipts or something else now). My guess is that perks will further forbid certain kinds of potions to be made.
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IsAiah AkA figgy
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:02 am

Some spiritual step to godliness, and not DIY energy drinks?


http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-thirty-six-lessons-vivec-sermon-two
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-thirty-six-lessons-vivec-sermon-eighteen

also, bruce dikeinson is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVSy24MYgZs

matter of fact...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEBOcCDZ5xc
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[ becca ]
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:31 am

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-thirty-six-lessons-vivec-sermon-two
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-thirty-six-lessons-vivec-sermon-eighteen

also, bruce dikeinson is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVSy24MYgZs

matter of fact...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEBOcCDZ5xc

I'm not really seeing the links to Alchemy in the Vivec lessons, and the last two have as much to do with Tamrielic Alchemy as Jackie Chan has to do with Lord of the Rings
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Cat Haines
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:12 pm

I'm not really seeing the links to Alchemy in the Vivec lessons, and the last two have as much to do with Tamrielic Alchemy as Jackie Chan has to do with Lord of the Rings


and thats why i said lore doesn't even matter anymore. thank you, crash test dummy #246325406
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Shae Munro
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:19 pm

i wish it had a deep alchemy system like the witcher
You and me both (and plenty of others); Lots would want an alchemy system like the Witcher ~but I'd settle for and alchemy system like the "reloading bench".


...
In the case of alchemy people wanted metal to be turned into gold. That was their main goal. Sound logical? No, ...
Great post :tops:
I'm not disputing it, but I would like to know how this is considered illogical?
(clearly they wanted the money)

**Also there is this to think about.... http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20080245187


Herbalism as its regarded today on Earth, would be Nirn's alchemy in its simplest form. It would be a strong understanding of the effects, that the consumption of individual ingredients have on the body and the mind, as well as an understanding of how best to process, refine and administer those indiviual ingredients to yield the most desirable effect. But alchemy doesn't stop there, and can become infinitely more complex and 'scientific", which is why I say to master such a skill would take a mage's intellect and mentality(in most cases). But because of its roots in 'herbalism'(get it :shakehead: ) I have to argue that alchemy wouldn't be perceived as magickal by the average people of Nirn.
Great post :goodjob:; in essence..."no"? I do understand what you are saying, but since everyone in Nirn can cast magic ~is anything magical at all in Nirn?
(BTW that particular aspect of TES is ~for me, the most irritating of all aspects of TES ~even though I do understand why its done that way).
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Mario Alcantar
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:06 pm

Great post :tops:
I'm not disputing it, but I would like to know how this is considered illogical?
(clearly they wanted the money)

Well I meant that it doesn't sound logical to us who know better. To them trying to turn metal into something else was more or less a legitimate science. It's sort of like how people thought the Earth was flat for thousands of years, they didn't come to any illogical conclusions based on the evidence they had. But to us who know better it is illogical to believe the Earth is flat on account of the evidence we have that it is round.
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Elea Rossi
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:06 pm

NEVER did Todd use the word important, ANYWHERE. Neither did he say it wasnt important. He just said Alchemy now is part of the stealth set of skills. WHO CARES WHAT LABEL IT IS IN?

For those saying it "doesnt make sense", well, let me refresh your minds a bit: these kinda thing DOES NOT MATTER in Elder Scrolls, because anybody can learn to do anything. Magic, for example, is not a innate ability only a few gifted can use. ANYBODY can use magic, Argonians and Bretons, Khajiit and Elves...it doesnt matter.
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pinar
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:33 pm

I agree with how it's handled in game, but I don't agree with the logic behind it. Alchemy is not a "stealthy" skill. It's a magic skill that's often used by stealth characters to add poison to their weapons or make themselves invisible, but it's not dependent on how well you sneak, and it doesn't work better if you sneak while doing it, as opposed to knifing someone in the back or stealing undetected, or pickpockiting.


I disagree. I've never considered "alchemy" a magic skill at all. Hell, I even think the term/name is wrong. Alchemy is highly based on metal lore, whereas the typical restorative "magic effects" we get from our alchemy can be classified as medicine and herb lore - most of the effects are not "magic" at all even if they are labeled that when looking at them. I'd prefer if some of the effects are taken out of alchemy, but to compensate is given bonuses to cooking (which was said to be a general activity not governed by skill). Some of the more extreme "medical" works from restoration magic could also be made unique to alchemy.
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Jeff Tingler
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:01 pm

I think you're reading into this too much. It's confirmed in the game---therefore it must be useful for something. I mean, its really hard to "nerf" alchemy, so I wouldnt be afraid of that. I expect the system to be similar to Oblivion, but with accompanying animations.


Honestly, was Alchemy really all that important though? There were only so many things you could do with it.
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R.I.P
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:24 am

Well I meant that it doesn't sound logical to us who know better. To them trying to turn metal into something else was more or less a legitimate science. It's sort of like how people thought the Earth was flat for thousands of years, they didn't come to any illogical conclusions based on the evidence they had. But to us who know better it is illogical to believe the Earth is flat on account of the evidence we have that it is round.

Exactly. And although turning lead into gold is still theoretically possible if you could remove or add protons, neutrons, and electrons from each individual atom. There has even been records of traces of gold being found in nuclear reactors. The only problem is the gold was a VERY radioactive isotope lol. Alchemy in both this form and the potion making form in TES are like the grandparent's of modern chemistry. Before we would know that Aloe can soothe a burn, now we can find out exactly what Aloe is made of and what happens to soothe the burn.
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Davorah Katz
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:35 pm

Honestly, was Alchemy really all that important though? There were only so many things you could do with it.


Not that important!!!? :eek: Not that important!??? :facepalm:

Hurry, someone fetch me a vial of ectoplasm, a steel blue entoloma mushroom, a fly amanita cap, and the gall from a dead imp...someone here is about to have himself a fatal accident. :flamed:
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Dan Endacott
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:28 am

My view is quite simple. Nearly all of the results of alchemy that created 'magical' potions have a spell equivalent that yo would probably have/use if playing a mage.
In the pod-cast they said they were blending the skills lists, implying they will have element's of some skills in other categories. TH: "We have a blended skill list, so alchemy is sort of the most magical of the stealth skills". In this quote it is also quite clear that they still regard alchemy as magical, its just not in that section. They also made it clear that they have overhauled the alchemy so maybe as well as what they had before they have opened up more variety in the kind of alchemy used by stealth characters. (like having more varieties/strengths of poison for example)
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Curveballs On Phoenix
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:37 am

Alchemy in Oblivion was far too easy and exploitable. Not to mention quite stupid.

I shall mix a cheese wedge with a cheese wheel and EUREKA I have a potion!
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jaideep singh
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:15 am

When I first started playing Oblivion in March of 2006, I thought "Alchemy...very time consuming and kind of boring." But after getting that one mod that lets you brew in batches, I started to enjoy it. Even though it takes a while, it is pretty fun. I hope Bethesda adds the batchbrewing into the game. If not, I will look forward to a mod that allows it.
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Eibe Novy
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:57 am

No classes = no penalties, which = doesn't matter. New class system is perfect because it prevents players from being penalized for choosing skills that overlap while at the same time limiting those who choose to be a jack-of-all-trades.
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Chris Cross Cabaret Man
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:56 am

>>putting suger in to a hamburguer

Well fast food chains do it and they make loads of cash sooo.... are you for alchemy in stealth


I meant sugar in a dessert-way (in terms of quantity), not as a way to correct the flavour...(I also put a little sugar when I do my homemade tomato sauce).
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Pete Schmitzer
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:26 am

jack-of-of-all-trades.

That is something I might consider trying to be some time...but it might take longer to become one.
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RUby DIaz
 
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