Now that's true, but its hardly the same unless you add in that this Chef knows some incredibly esoteric facts about the raw ingredients of the meal and how they play off of each other to produce the flavors. Such that the master Chef could decide (and be right) that the recipe is wrong, and that certain amounts other spices and ingredients not called for, would be the better choice to add into the sauce.

All that said, Alchemy would be very much the odd one out in the other magical skills - all of which now exclusively revolve around actual use of magical energy and arcane powers.

It's no more magical than it is stealthy (in so far as both can be read as having a 'clever' archetype attached), and for the sake of having neat numbers, it's made the switch. :shrug:

Hopefully it will just be fixable with a mod. :shrug:

***I don't think it won't play smoothly; I do think it will feel polished ~just that its aesthetically odd [IMO] to place it in with Stealth skills.

I don't think thieves would be any less interested in learning the intricities of Alchemy than they would the intricities of crafting locks. It's a lot easier to open a lock if you know how it works. Likewise, thieves would be interested in knowing what each ingredient of their alchemical formulas do what, so they can improvise to solve their problems. It's the warriors that would "Follow the cookbook."

Scoundrels/Thieves/Stealth specialists aren't about "Sneaking about silently and stabbing people in the back"... they are about understanding and working within the constraints of a problem to solve it in a manner outside the expected norm. They make the impossible possible. Mages are about removing the constraints of a problem (An option only they have), and Fighters take and solve a problem at face value.

Since the effects of alchemical ingredients cannot be changed by thinking they should be different (As a mage would do), it would be the Thief that's most interested in studying and working within the constraints of the defined alchemical system. Mages would lose patience too quickly.

True, but where would they learn that? ... Ah.. http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/Gizmojunk/AlchemyD.png

I think the guild should have alchemists, but not that the protoscience of alchemy should be standard burgler training. They should have alchemists... not all be alchemists.

No offense but I disagree

When I have a mage they rely on alchemy enormously

1. I use it for an important money source early in the game - my mages are not thieves so make their cash via making and selling potions
2. My mages have minimal strength - they can't carry much on their own, in order to control levelling up too fast I avoid feather spells and prefer feather potions
3. As an intelligence skill Alchemy is very important to my mage for improving my available magicka pool
4. In previous TES games alchemy allowed me to ensure I would get the maximum bonus for the level
5. My Mage would depend on carrying home brewed health and restore magicka potions for successful fights - this will be even more important in Skyrim seeing as I can't run backwards fast in combat anymore, my mage will need alchemy more than before to stay on top of things

I'm not sure I see Alchemy as a science - probably due to all the fantasy ingredients and effects - most references to alchemy call it a pseudo-science due to it's focus on transmutation or achieving the elixir of life and while I understand the use of poisons for stealth characters I still feel it is a more appropiate skill for mages

Trial and error is one way, and the exchange of "Trade secrets" amongst thieves, assassins, and nightblades. Especially with the Thieves' guild. Thieves would be very interested in replicating magic effects (Especially silence, chameleon, slowfall, jump/levitation, and invisibility) without casting spells themselves, and several conversations could be about exchanging how certain ingredients interact.

The mindset to acquiring knowledge of alchemy is very mage/scholar-like. However, those who have actual interest in learning how to do it, and interest in the end results, are the thieves and scoundrels.

Of course, why wouldn't a master chef know these things?

A master chef would be the ones making recipes, deciding what spices to blend in what quantities, and will know why these spices taste good and compliment each other.

Oh they'd be interested alright, but I can't see them having many individuals that could make sense of the training, nor the ones they did have being willing to share it. I kind of think that alchemists in the thieves guild would want to be a rather exclusive bunch that the rest come to for their potions ~not become educators that could teach themselves out of a cushy job.


Thank you for agreeing with me. :foodndrink:
(but isn't it at the expense of your own points? Unless I'm missing your argument)

The arrogant Mage-wannabes would try being exclusivistic arrogant pricks. But the thieves figure out what's what on their own, and share their findings with other thieves in the guild. They'd be more like "Alchemy Hobbyists", and willing to share their findings with each other to spread the fun and interest. Possessions are transient to a thief.

I had a friend that tried to make gunpowder once. He put everything in the bowl and started grinding it.

(he's lucky he never got it right :rolleyes:)

Alchemy was never important, to me. :shrug:

Yeah i had a friend once who tried to make some kind of pipe bomb esq thing from fire works. I think he was drilling a hole in it with a power drill when it blew up his hand. I think he learnt a few lessons that day :nono:




Cool story Hansel

Well I am truly sorry that your friend is so stupid lol. I have made Smoke bombs, black powder, mercury fulminate, and thermate. As far as non flammable subjects I have made chloroform, and a few other things. All of this was done before I turned 20, and done only because I was curious. I never got hurt in any way because I didn't make stupid mistakes. All of this is irrelevant to the actual thread topic. I guess the summary is that Alchemy is a science, magic is how something is explained when we don't know how the science behind it works.

(Without any useful details... :nono:)... How did you learn?

Back then (for us), and presumably still (for Nirn/TES). there is no Internet, and few (if any) public libraries; nor public schools.
To be trained in a tradeskill (or even find information about it), you had to enter apprenticeship (for years).

---

The way TES works (or worked), the player has access to any skill (regardless of plausibility), and can advance by doing. :shrug: Hey, its the game, and it does work, and will work... (but I just wish there was a skill based risk of dangerous results for a mistake :chaos: ~and that alchemy wasn't lumped into Stealth).

Is Skyrim not hooked up yet?

Honestly i think Alchemy is going to be better than ever in Skyrim. They haven't talked about it yet because there is a lot to say. Just a hunch

They have until November to tinker with it; (and may tinker stuff out of it too), so I would only expect non-committal comments until around August.

I like the idea of having to read books to learn specific ingredient effects or certain recipes but yeah a lot of the stuff I did was either in the Anarchist Cookbook, or learned by word of mouth or written instructions lol. I think the only things that I used the internet for was the mercury fulminate and chloroform. (FYI, do not make chloroform it can cause chemical burns and if you use it too much brain damage. It didn't happen to me but my buddy who volunteered to have it tested on him. He's kind of strange, he knew those risks beforehand but still "hugged the teddybear" as we called it )

Edit: Also, yeah public libraries svck for information, I just went to some chemistry stores and a Barnes and Noble.

Hey... that was full of useful details.

Well... They just might sell alchemy books in the town square in TES, but that would lower the credibility of the gameworld for me.

Not at all, what do you mean?

A master chef can be compared to a master alchemist, but people making simple home remedies are still doing alchemy just like people making simple porridge are still cooking.

That, and Alchemy isn't magic. Those are my main points.

who cares what its labeled under........like enchanting any character can take it.

Cool. We do actually agree about the chef and alchemist.

Game-wise I think we agree that the skill (any skill) represents the PC's ability at it.
(I don't think in a fantasy context that Alchemy is not magical, but since every character in TES can cast spells, I think its a moot point).
I still find that Alchemy as a stealth skill sounds silly IMO; but I believe Todd, and his opinion on it.

I always felt that alchemy was much more closely related to stealth than it was to magic. Magic based skills should require the use of magic, which alchemy does not since in TES games alchemy just means the mixing of ingredients. Enchanting, on the other hand, would require a magical background. Poisons are also of no use to a mage, and are much better suited to stealth. Both from a gameplay standpoint and a lore standpoint the change makes sense to me, and if the change makes sense the quote is probably talking about how the change is of little concern, not the skill itself. I'm sure alchemy will be as useful as ever, or even more so considering the new emphasis on crafting.

In addition to that, do you REALLY think they'd be trying to get rid of alchemy, or making it less crucial or fun while at the same time bragging about their new inventory setup? The whole "view all your items in a 3D view that can be rotated and zoomed in on, etc..." continuously gets emphasized in relation to alchemy ingredients. All of my characters for a long time (from Morrowind's time even) have used Alchemy quite a bit. And while I am constantly let down by stupid gameplay decisions proceeding into a new TES game, I wouldn't worry about Alchemy. It will hopefully be better than Morrowind and Oblivion. I'm hoping they get rid of stupid things like not being able to put ANY potion on a weapon. If I make a potion that damages health, causes shock damage and paralyzes, I shouldn't be forced to drink or sell it simply because it restores fatigue too.

EDIT: And while many of my characters have been at least half-mage, I do agree Alchemy fits WAY more as a Stealth skill. I never truly understood why it was in the magic category. I suppose since the Mage's Guild is so big on using and teaching it, as well as selling things related to it. Just because Mages like it, though, doesn't mean it should be a magic skill if it doesn't use magic. Mage's use it most because they rely on its benefits most (light or no armor, no armor skills, etc... and magicka depletion all make them more prone to need or be helped by potions), but, in spirit, it feels more like a stealth skill, especially with the addition of Alchemy as a means of creating poisons in Oblivion.

I feel like it's pretty arbitrary to declare Alchemy is a science, but Magic is not in the context of the Elder Scrolls universe. Magic is only not a science in reality because magic does not exist in reality. In the case of Nirn, magic and it's properties are studied just as rigorously as science in the real world.

But really, all this argument says to me is that if anything should have been cut from the character system, it should absolutely have been the arbitrary separation between the three "Arch-classes". Throw them out entirely.