You are wrong. I will not explain why, the podcast will do that for me if you listen to what Todd is actually saying.

^^^THIS^^^

Ya still dont get why its in the stealth category.

Simply because they had to reduce it to 6 in each category, and it no longer fit into the Magicka category. Sort of exactly why the NHL put the Dallas Stars into the Pacific Division.

I'm wrong or the OP?

Well I more have question about work of alchemy, not Stealth skill it now or magical.
Can we still combine different ingredients for potion in classical style or there will be only based on formula from receipt that need to learn?
How effects of ingredient can be explored? Is there will be some hidden effects
Ability to quaff more potions as you get better at Alchemy will be or not?
Apparatus of different quality and purpose still in game or generic alchemist workbench completely replace them?
Poisons will last longer on weapon when used by skilled in alchemy assassin?
Can we thrown potion to enemies and environment and the will have different behavior like spells?
Drink potion will be real time or in inventory pause?
Will there chance of fail when mixing an potion with?
Can we poison food?
Is there will be common ingredients that can be purchased and rare that need to be found?
Is flora will change when be harvested?
Can we combine different potions?
Is there will be option to brew more potion from one alchemy session like in this mod
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=25226
Is there will be preparations of ingredients before we can brew potion, for example like in Arx Fatalis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfwrjYSeVfU
Before brew potion need to make dust from ingredient then put into empty bottle add water start brew with apparatus.

Putting alchemy to the Thief-category makes perfect sense because alchemy takes as much intelligence and knowledge as smithing and smithing is in Warrior-category.

What I'm trying to say is that if you want to put alchemy to the Mage-category, because it takes some intelligence and wisdom to brew a potion irl, then you must also put smithing to the Mage-category, because it takes as much intelligence and wisdom to forge or repair a fine weapon irl.

Sure you need some strength for smithing, but strength doesn't make or brake you if you want to become a talented smith. Or do you think that forging a fine katana is an easy job if you just have enough strength? No, the best weapon smiths are today, and have always been, quite old men, because there is much more to smithing than strength.

Looks like 5 pages of people who fail to grasp the concept of a game without classes...

Isn't any science that is [sufficiently] beyond the understanding of the viewer, looked upon as magic? I think we have a different definition of the term "magic".
Would someone in the 1600's not think penicillin and vulcanized latex were magic? What about holography? Alchemy is not another word for chemistry.
In a fantasy setting though even regular plain old chemistry should be considered magic. :shrug:

I don't consider it a game without them. :shrug:



**The more I re-read that ... The more I seem to be changing my mind (not enough to eraser it though); I don't like that the classes are removed. Fallout had no classes, but it made up for it with the rest of the "game" system. Arx Fatalis was the same way ~and so was Lionheart.

But a game with no classes, and no risk for skill use, just doesn't seem much of a game to me.

I think Alchemy will still have it's uses but I don't think it will be powerful outside of the perks that are associated with Alchemy. I think wants you get those perks then Alchemy may get better like a Perk for Poision +50% Damage or something like that.

Although I have agreed with you previously in this thread, about where alchemy should be placed, I don't agree with this argument. You can't compare the mixing of natural ingredients and the creation of potions/poisons in the world of Nirn, with latex, plastics or even penicillin being shown to a people native to 17th century Earth.

Alchemy is, and would logically be regarded as a staple of most cultures in Nirn, simply because in this fantasy reality, the advance of 'technology' is supplemented by an understanding and use of magic. Alchemy isn't a skill reserved solely for those with magic, or with high intelligence. They would be more likely to be the ones to master such a skill, but alchemy would not be considered magic by the average man, and its basic understanding would be a part of his life. The knowlegde of certain beneficial and poisonous ingredients would logically, be passed down from parent to child, as it was on Earth in more primitive times. Basic things like how to create a health potion or how to create an antidote to poison would be common knowledge all around the land because of the nature of the world they live in.

okay... But why not? I don't see a distinction between the two examples.

By everyone?
I don't see a difference between skill to craft a scroll, cast a spell, and draft a potion, where the effect is the same ~invisibility (or shrinking, or floating).

Why not!? (seriously)

This I do understand ~crystal clear, but I do not understand why anyone would want that or would write that into the fiction. :confused:

This stuff is mundane, I don't see why these recipes would be part of alchemy. Sure, there can be alchemical poisons, but not all poisons are alchemical. Raw snake venom isn't alchemy and neither is mixing it with another poison to make a stronger one.

Alchemy was the pursuit of a way to transform lead into gold. It apparently had a lot of philosophical and quasi religious aspects to it. In fantasy fiction, potions like a shrink-drink are not something the average townsman would (or should) know how to make. (and IMO should qualify as magical)

I'd have no qualms against a poison subset (of the skill) or the notion that the thieves guild has alchemists, but it just seems bad fiction to me to have all thieves be alchemists.

Actually, Fallout was a fantasy game, with Magical Glowing Zombies, wierd brain-things, and Giant Mutant Ogres.

As far as why Alchemy's a stealth skill now, We can use the process of elimination to show it's not magic:

Does it involve drawing on the user's pool of magicka for its effects?
If yes, it's magic, if no, then:
Does it rely on the user's knowledge of magical effects he can draw upon at will?
If yes, it's magic, if not... It ISN'T!

Alchemy has no "Caster", and it doesn't draw upon the user's mind directly. It's entirely self-contained to the predetermined effects of the ingredients being combined, to create the desired result.

The difference in mage, Fighter, and Thief is about the mindset to problem solving (As evidenced in the character-creation questions from the first two games), not the actual activities. Alchemy uses a clearly defined set of parameters, and a Thief exploits those parameters to get the effect he wants from what he's given to work with, though the method and effect of his actions to solve the problem are not immediately apparent. (How is that scrawny thief supposed to haul that valuable suit of Ebony armor?! It's too heavy for him to lift! ...what's he doing with that piece of venison, sweetcake, and bottle of water? Ohh...)

The fighter takes a given problem at face value, and solves the problem in the most direct way. When confronted with a locked door, he'd use a key, or bash it down.
The thief, when confronted with a problem, works within the supplied environment to solve a given problem. He'd use a fighter technique when it works, but lacks the power to use it to solve all problems. He's also mindful of longer-term consequences of his actions, planning in advance.

Mages are just spoiled brats who've memorized the rude gestures and ancient expletives to throw a temper tantrum until the universe gets sick of their [censored]ing and buys them a gumball/decides a door isn't really locked/ignores the effects of fire on him/puts a band-aid on his boo-boo or whatever, limited only by the mage's ability to tantrum until the universe gets sick of them and says no. This is also why all mages are smug twits with superiority complexes.

Alchemy is so totally a magical skill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy

yaaaa, suuuure sounds like something a thief would be associated with...?!?!? WTF Bethesda....wut...the...eff.

I'd consider it science fiction. Fantasy can include magical dancing shoes and portable holes.


Magika is meaningless.. Its an artificial limitation placed upon spell casting for game balance sake.
As to the second part Alchemy relies on the user's knowledge of magical effects he can draw from his cabinet at will.

Of course it does ~he's concentrating isn't he; He crafts the formula too.

With Alchemy the balance limitation is the ingredients and/or cost to make potions.

1,2 and 3:

The results of enchanting, spellcasting and alchemy may be similar, but unlike the first two, alchemy isn't dependant on one's ability to manipulate magicka, nor would it require some arcane knowledge, that would appear magical to the people of Nirn, because flora and fungi are abundant across a land that is dominated by wilderness. These foods, or ingredients, would have been eaten by these modern day peoples ancestors and the effects of such 'magical' ingredients would slowly become more common knowledge amongst the entire population. Each generation would, in turn, pass down what knowledge they had learned or been taught, to their children, the same way that we, today, still teach our children basic survival methods, to succeed in the world we live.

4:

I never said that I disagreed with you as to where Alchemy should be placed. And I agree to master such a skill, would take the intellectual, scientific mind of one who studies the manipulation of magicka in most cases. We both know why Beth put it where they did, and it has nothing to do with fiction, lore or the world of Nirn.

5:

Mundane or not, it is alchemy, and I only brought up those basic examples to counter your argument that alchemy would be viewed as magical by the people of Nirn--which it would not. It is from those basic potions/poisons, however, that the foundation of alchemy is formed.

BS!

alchemy, in every sense of the practice, is the closest you can get to magic in the real world. it's a spiritual ascension as well, and that sounds like waay more somethin a mage would be looking for than a thief. all im saying is they're getting alchemy and tinkering confused.

Alchemy should be in Magic for one reason, Lore. In it's lore it's associated with Magic. Why would it matter if there is 7 magic catagories I thought we were getting rid of the Class Specilization. That means we should get rid of the Combat, Magic, and Stealth Catagories and just have the skills be themselves. You can group them but don't have it be like Combat has 6 Magic has 6 and Stealth has 6. Alchemy is more then just Poisons, I have created plenty of Cure Disease Potions or Raise Stats potions with Alchemy. Put it back in the Magic Catagory.

I think what Todd is getting at is that it doesn't really matter anymore??

You've misinterpreted my argument. In some ways I agree with you, but you should read all my posts in this thread before shouting BS!

"spiritual ascension"?

Please don't confuse the science of alchemy in Nirn with Earthly 'psychedelics'. :shocking:

Probably. I fully expect the game to play smoothly and balance out; just that you [probably] can't look to close at it.

there's no psychedelic to it, its the basis of alchemy. now a days its outdated to think of it like that, ya, but ESPECIALLY in an RPG it should focus on not only the earthly body, but the eathric one as well.

And this is why Todd said "It doesn't matter." Besides, as Alchemy(Which functions more like chemistry in TES) works without anyone spending any magicka or drawing on known spells, it's not a magical ability. It's a skilled ability, which is the realm of a thief.

Knowing what substances can do what when mixed together can be as critical to the success of a thief as a knowing how to manipulate a lock's inner workings, another science not visible to the untrained eye (What do you see with a lock? A Box with a hole in it.

Oh no! A magic force is keeping me from opening this door because it has a box with a hole in it stuck on its side! What's this guy doing? He's putting a silly-looking piece of bent metal in the hole! What does the incantation "Comm awn yestu pidlok" mean? Huh? The door opens now! MAGIC!

And as far as why speechcraft is a Theif ability: the ability to fast-talk the guards out of arresting you, convince a noble that it's his best interest to name you his sole inheritor, complete with advance payment, and be suave enough to steal a woman's virtue right in front of her. (See the book The Thief of Virtue.)

And Alchemy in Nirn is not Alchemy on Earth. All it is in Nirn is IKEA Supernatural Energy Drinks

Would you distinguish in Nirn, a difference between Alchemy and Herbalism?

>>putting suger in to a hamburguer

Well fast food chains do it and they make loads of cash sooo.... are you for alchemy in stealth