I believe Merari's assemant is correct.

Akatosh is an invention of Alessia, who then got really messed up by the Selectives.

Didn't say he was. I said he was an aspect of the God of Time -- Bormahu, as they call him. Akatosh is an aspect of the Time God, and Alduin is also an aspect of the Time God. The first aspect, as Auri-El, Akatosh, etc, didn't come about until afterward.

The Dovahkiin has never/will never mantle Akatosh. He's Shor/Lorkhan incarnate (Shezzarine), not Akatosh. Although many people with more lore knowledge than me will argue that Akatosh is Lorkhan, and Lorkhan is Akatosh.

Because of the interlinkedness of space and time.
Really, time is just space seen from a right angle.
Physicists speak of space and time as one entity called spacetime.
Time can be expressed as a measurement of how long it will take to cross a distance, and space can be expressed as a measurement of what distance will be travelled in a certain amount of time, without each other they are meaningless.

Oh so it's a case of "one cannot exist without the other?" There's a few anologies that have been thrown around, such as the Voldemort/Harry Potter thing, and the whole Jack/Tyler Fight Club situation, but I've never actually grasped MK's explanation of the Akatosh/Lorkhan dichotomy.

It's more than a dependence on one another. They are the same thing. In the same way that light can both be seen as a particle and a wave. It appears as one or the other, but we have yet to see it in its true form (wavicle?).

Perception literally dictates the way reality behaves. Check out that famout double slit experiment with light.

And the Akatoch/Lorkhan relationship always brings up the Rebel and King connection, IIRC.

He is a dragon.

From what I have understood from the Skyrim MQ I would concider him Aedric, but perhaps not an Aedra on the same line as Akatosh or Kynareth. He is described as being the first-born of Akatosh by both Parthurnax and Odahviing so while he is the nordic aspect of Akatosh he may not be Akatosh himself. Of course I may be wrong.

Prior to TES V that's what it seemed, but it seems he is closer to the Dragons idea of Akatosh/Borhamu than Auri-El.

To the Nords. Or more specifically, the Greybeards as Aka has little importance in the Nordic pantheon. He doesn't even get a temple to himself.

Borhamu: Has violant, power-obsessed, arrogant children. He did this on purpose. Kynareth/Kyne is associated with the peaceful Way of the Voice. He also has his son, Alduin, periodically destroy the world so the next kalpa can be started.

He doesn't sound like the loving, peaceful Akatosh at all. He is also close enough to Auriel that the Nords didn't want the Nedes to worship him at all. At least Auriel wants to lead his followers to something better.

Alduin is just a dragon, possibly the first dragon created. What is a dragon? Is it just one of the many beings at creation to be created like the aldmer and man but large enough to retain immortality? Seems logical to me, that if people can make the connection to them being Elhefony that survived the constant watering down of reproduction, simply because they dont reproduce or mingle with other species in that way.

And again maybe its possible that Alduin is just a dragon who has eaten so many mortal man and mer souls that there was no dragon soul left to absorb in the chaos of alduin's supposed death, would he be the first being to think himself above his own kind? to be something exceptionally special and turned out not to be? Lets look at a short list of normal men and mer who thought themselves divine or were just egomaniac's with a ton of power at their disposal. Mancor Cameron, The Camoran Usurper, Mannimarco, Jagar Tharn.. ect ect the one thing they all have in common? They were all completely drunk on power, Alduin is just a dragon, nothing more, possibly the first to be created by whatever mysterious event created all the races on Nirn, or maybe he is just a very cunning or lucky dragon who discovered the portal to sovengarde and used it as a power well to fuel himself up to unchallangable power among his fellow dragons and used that to subjigate them under his rule and let it all go to his head untill he seen himself as the supreme lord of all life and death in the known universe.. Sounds like quite a few dictator's we've had in our world to me, and he was nothing more then a power mad sorcerer dragon dictator who wanted to subjigate and ompress the world because that is the nature of dragons, to dominate.

Haha, great job with the Quantum physics anology. I know about the slit experiment that shows that light can be waves and particles. I'm a pretty decent physicist so I get it now. Thanks

We don't know what his teachings are, because the Dragons didn't follow him directly, they followed Alduin. And between being unjustly slain by mortals, being restored to life by Alduin, and the fact that Alduin has the strongest voice, it's no wonder they're causing such trouble now. Borhamu is closer to Akatosh than Auri-El because he's the father of dragons, and by extension, the father of Dragonborn. And who was the first known Dragonborn?

Hi all. I want to thank you all for all the wonderful insights I am seeing in this thread, I literally wowed when I started to read all the replies here, literally 30 minutes ago I believed that the divines where sited up in their high thrones in Aetherius, that Akatosh was pretty much the "good guy" and Lorkhan the "bad guy" and had no idea of what a "Shezzarine" was. Now I am faced with a pragmatic war between Padomay and Anu aligned multi dimensional beings that can manifest themselves in different aspects and each constantly fight through history to achieve their own goals, truly such an in-depth richness of the TES lore got me off guard.

I have some question though and I'd appreciate it so much if someone was kind enough to enlighten me.

First is: Are Akatosh and Auriel different aspects of the time god? are they at odds? does Au-riel align with the Thalmor plot to revert Mundus to it's original state? Is he different from the Akatosh which made the pact with Alessia and created the Dragonborn?

Also, if the Dovahkiin as a Shezzarine (this applies to Tiber/Talos as well) is an aspect of Shezzar/Lorkhan/Shor how can they be Dragonborn as well, as in, blessed with the Dovah Sos by the divines, isn't that a little contradictory? Which also makes me wonder how can be the Dragonborn appointed by the gods if they are selfless?

I know it's a lot to ask all of this question but bear with me, I'm just incredibly curious right now.

The Dovahkiin has the soul of a Dragon only due to the Lorkhan/Akatosh dichotomy. Remember how it was thought that Lorkhan gave St. Alessia "dragon blood," until Oblivion, where they said it was Akatosh? Then MK gave a pretty concise explanation.

It's hard to tell at this point. Before Skyrim came out, it was generally accepted on the Lore Forum that Akatosh, Alduin, and Auri-El were the same diety. It was also generally accepted that Akatosh was newer than the other two, a construct by Alessia to create a more ideal god for men to worship, and that his dragon imagery was either inspired by Alduin or the Akaviri. One of MK's posts hinted at Alduin and Akatosh being separate, or at least Akatosh working to thwart Alduin, and sure enough when Skyrim came out, we find out that Akatosh is the Dragon' god, known by them as Borhamu, and Alduin is his firstborn son, and the dragons are his children.

In-universe, Auri-El is considered to be the same being as Akatosh, even if he's viewed very differently. A Bosmer who worshiped Auri-El actually joined the Knights of the Nine. Even so, he comes off as being a lot more like Alduin than Akatosh. While Auri-El and Alduin both work to undo creation, Akatosh works to preserve it.

Thank you for your replies, this is most interesting.

I wonder if Bethesda is ever going to tackle all of this at full force, although they really seem to be treating it as a really long over-arching story.The Thalmor plot does make a lot more sense now though.

From what we've seen in Skyrim and of Fight Four, I would say that Akatosh too would just be an aspect of the greater Aka, The Great Dragon God of Time; along with Alduin and Auri-El (Alkosh too), from which those cultural-aspects are all shed.

When the dragons (Paarthunax and Alduin) speak Tamrielic, they say 'Akatosh' translated from 'Borhamu' in the dragon tongue, only because that is the most known identity. Alduin, after all, is older than the Imperial Akatosh - That remains unchanged.

That's my line of thought anyway.

can u post a link to that?

"he was the Aka-tusk, a somewhat foreign spirit (yeah, right) from the totem wars."

"you will eat nothing here, Aspect Ald," said the Aka-tusk, sensing trouble. "do not forget that it was Heaven itself that shed you from me."

Fight four makes it clear (to me, at least) that Alduin and Akatosh were one being, and then the Selective mucked things up, and made it so Aka-tusk was always separate from Ald (hence somewhat foreign spirit (yeah, right)).
Similarly, Vehk the mortal did murder the hortator, and Vehk the god did not.

I read "heaven itself" as referring to the Elder Scroll. The marukh meddling was more about elevating man-friendly Aka-tusk to the exclusion of mer-allied Auriel.

That's the whole point, they are still the one being at the root but both different aspects/branches of the greater Aka.

Edit: Fixed for clarity.

I think Alduin was uprooted, so to say. Perhaps not to the extent that he's joor, but the "real dragon, with flesh and teeth" is definitely both zah and frul.

This interpretation has some issues with causality, as he gets hit with this thu'um and exiled from time at a later date than the first evidence of his physicality. However, if there's anything that can force causality to run counter to Aka's bias it'd be an Elder Scroll.

Perhaps all dragons are, to a lesser degree.

I will bring in the greatest authority on this matter

"Some say Alduin is Akatosh. Some say M'aiq is a Liar. Don't you believe either of those things."
M'aiq the Liar