Is Alduin Akatosh or his son? : V - Skyrim

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:55 am

You cant kill Aedra.

Then Alduin aint Aedra, cuz hes dead, like dead dead. Alduin is Akatosh' son. He states it himself. Yes the nords may refer to their version of Akatosh as Alduin but doesnt mean he IS Akatosh.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:50 am

As does most lore. All lore before Sky says they are the same. Different interpretations of the same entity.

All lore being one in-game book.

Which makes way more sense than another Aedra running around.

Every single dragon is an Aedra, already. The elves claim to be Aedra. There's lots of them running around.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:14 pm

Then Alduin aint Aedra, cuz hes dead, like dead dead. Alduin is Akatosh' son. He states it himself. Yes the nords may refer to their version of Akatosh as Alduin but doesnt mean he IS Akatosh.

No more dead than Ysmir Wulfharth is. Which is to say he isn't. Alduin=akatosh.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:38 pm

According to Parthuunox, Alduin is Akatosh's first born while Parthuunox is the second.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:11 am

All lore being one in-game book.

Every single dragon is an Aedra, already. The elves claim to be Aedra. There's lots of them running around.

Elves are not Aedra, they are descended from Anuic, which is something they believe. No, it's more than one in game book.

Akatosh is Alduin, is Alkosh, is Ruptga (most likley). is Auri-El.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:56 am

No more dead than Ysmir Wulfharth is. Which is to say he isn't. Alduin=akatosh.

First off, the Dragonborn absorbs Dragonsouls, thus permanently killing them.

Spoiler

Second, Alduin is cast out of time through an Elder Scroll, which clearly doesn't happen to Akatosh himself, who still acts and does all kinds of stuff, like during the Oblivion Crisis where he casts out Mehrunes Dagon.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:36 am

I think the confusion is because in order for Akatosh to exist in Tamriel, he'd surely have to embody himself within the realm. That embodiment being Alduin. Therefore, you do kill Alduin, who is born from Akatosh. That doesn't mean there won't be another dragon as equally powerful as Alduin in the future, as Akatosh is likely to want to destroy the world; or maybe he doesn't want to anymore, seeing as how men and mer have proven their worth by defeating him. Who knows.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:00 am

First off, the Dragonborn absorbs Dragonsouls, thus permanently killing them.

Spoiler

Second, Alduin is cast out of time through an Elder Scroll, which clearly doesn't happen to Akatosh himself, who still acts and does all kinds of stuff, like during the Oblivion Crisis where he casts out Mehrunes Dagon.

Akatosh is Alduin.

The One who plunged himself into Mundus to create time is the same as the one who comes to devour it. the yin and yang to the cycle.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:00 pm

I believe that Alduin is the firstborn son of Akatosh, he himself tells you that, as does Odhaviing at the end of the game.
In a way he may be considered a part of Akatosh, a wayward fragment, but I don't believe them to be the same entity.

Spoiler

Paarthanax states that they (dragons) are the offspring of Akatosh, that Alduin was the firstborn, and therefore his elder brother.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:39 pm

Plus y'know, if Alduin really was Akatosh, Im pretty sure we wouldnt be able to beat him seeing as he is a GOD! Also like stated above, Akatosh is the god of time, if Alduin was akatosh I dont think that whole time travel trick the ancient nords pulled on Alduin would have worked.
And again I will bring up my previous point, Alduin himself, Odahviing, and Parthurnaax all say he is Akatosh' son.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:20 am

Aedra have died before, just to come back as the same thing. They are all the same. No different than Jesus really being god.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:25 am

It is really confusing if Alduin is Akatosh. However, think about it this way. In western myths(real world) dragons are considered bad luck, they were hunted down and killed. While in eastern countries such as China, dragons are considered their benefactor and signs of good luck. If Akatosh is Alduin, then maybe the Nords consider Alduin bad while the rest of Tamriel consider Akatosh good. Or maybe Alduin just hates Nords.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:50 am

It is really confusing if Alduin is Akatosh. However, think about it this way. In western myths(real world) dragons are considered bad luck, they were hunted down and killed. While in eastern countries such as China, dragons are considered their benefactor and signs of good luck. If Akatosh is Alduin, then maybe the Nords consider Alduin bad while the rest of Tamriel consider Akatosh good. Or maybe Alduin just hates Nords.

Sounds to me like you're saying my Breton is asian. Well, sir, do I have news for you.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:19 am

The biggest problem is that most all ideologies on Nirn are real. This brings up practical problems when trying to take the lore into a realistic, real world canon perspective. Logistically this is impossible because everything becomes real and everything turns into everything else. When you go with logic and how the lore was up until Skyrim (since I obviously haven't picked apart 100% of the games lore yet) then Ak is Al. Al is a the Jyggalag to Aks Sheogorath. Minus the whole semantics in regards to Sheo and Jyggy.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:48 am

The biggest problem is that most all ideologies on Nirn are real. This brings up practical problems when trying to take the lore into a realistic, real world canon perspective. Logistically this is impossible because everything becomes real and everything turns into everything else. When you go with logic and how the lore was up until Skyrim (since I obviously haven't picked apart 100% of the games lore yet) then Ak is Al. Al is a the Jyggalag to Aks Sheogorath. Minus the whole semantics in regards to Sheo and Jyggy.

Yes but Alduin IS NOT Akatosh! He says so himself! It says right in the game, this isnt up for debate or speculation, the words came from Alduin mouth himself, as well as stated by Odahviing and Parthurnaax. Alduin is his son, the eldest, which made him the leader and older brother to Parthurnaax and the other dragons.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:18 pm

Al is a the Jyggalag to Aks Sheogorath. Minus the whole semantics in regards to Sheo and Jyggy.

When you put it that way, it makes a lot more sense.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:41 am

How is this relevant to the fact that Alduin is Akatosh' son, not Akatosh himself.

Because they are one in the same. Like Ysmir Wulfharth being Zurin Arctus.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:51 pm

The biggest problem is that most all ideologies on Nirn are real. This brings up practical problems when trying to take the lore into a realistic, real world canon perspective. Logistically this is impossible because everything becomes real and everything turns into everything else. When you go with logic and how the lore was up until Skyrim (since I obviously haven't picked apart 100% of the games lore yet) then Ak is Al. Al is a the Jyggalag to Aks Sheogorath. Minus the whole semantics in regards to Sheo and Jyggy.

I'd say that the in game empirical evidence from Skyrim does not support your case of Akatosh and Alduin being the same person.
Being 'The First Born Son' of a deity in TES doesn't make you that deity (i.e. stop comparing him to Jesus).

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:46 pm

Yes but Alduin IS NOT Akatosh! He says so himself! It says right in the game, this isnt up for debate or speculation, the words came from Alduin mouth himself, as well as stated by Odahviing and Parthurnaax. Alduin is his son, the eldest, which made him the leader and older brother to Parthurnaax and the other dragons.

Son of a god=Them. Ak did not devour, destroy or procreate to "produce" Al. He is the embodiment of Ak. Whether either admit to it or not. No more than Jesus would say that he was actually god.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:58 am

Son of a god=Them.

Please refer to the Elder Scrolls mythos in which this is the case.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:15 am

Son of a god=Them. Ak did not devour, destroy or procreate to "produce" Al. He is the embodiment of Ak. Whether either admit to it or not. No more than Jesus would say that he was actually god.

According to the friendly Dragons in-game, they are all sons of Akatosh, are you saying every Dragon I have killed is Akatosh!?!?!? *gasp* Plus, where in Elder scrolls lore does it say that if you are the son of a god, you are that god. If so Tibre Septims kids would be gods, heck this isnt even the case in real life, Hercules was Zeus' son but wasnt Zeus himself, Thor was the son of Odin but they were not one and the same, your logic is flawed.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:05 pm

Please refer to the Elder Scrolls mythos in which this is the case.

This is the case for most mythological sons that are not naturally procreated. In ES canon this is a precedent. If there's no opposite partner, no devoured deity, then Al comes from Ak, hence they are the same, deferring to logical mythological example.

Ak did not create Al in his presence, Al came from his presence. More than just a seed, an embodiment of Ak. Take into account the whole cycle and How Ak came to be, along with his role in Nirn, its not hard to see how they are the same.

According to the friendly Dragons in-game, they are all sons of Akatosh, are you saying every Dragon I have killed is Akatosh!?!?!? *gasp* Plus, where in Elder scrolls lore does it say that if you are the son of a god, you are that god. If so Tibre Septims kids would be gods, heck this isnt even the case in real life, Hercules was Zeus' son but wasnt Zeus himself, Thor was the son of Odin but they were not one and the same, your logic is flawed.

No, my logic is not flawed. Al was not mothered. Al came from Aks being. Its more closely related to christian mythos than Greek or Roman, even though it is a polytheistic religion.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:38 am

This is the case for most mythological sons that are not naturally procreated. In ES canon is is a precedent. If there's no opposite partner, no devoured deity, then Al comes from Ak, hence they are the same, deferring to logical mythological example.

This isn't a religious debate, Alduin is the first dragon just like 'Adam and Eve', not like Jesus.
He isn't some godly avatar of Akatosh, that was just the rhetoric that he, himself, told everybody.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:30 pm

This isn't a religious debate, Alduin is the first dragon just like 'Adam and Eve', not like Jesus.
He isn't some godly avatar of Akatosh, that was just the rhetoric that he, himself, told everybody.

It is a religious debate, a fictional religion, that was inspired by real life mythos and ideologies. It doesn't matter what he says. He came to be purely from Ak, and that's just this form in this particular game. They are the same. He did not descend, he was created from Ak.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:42 pm

No, my logic is not flawed. Al was not mothered. Al came from Aks being. Its more closely related to christian mythos than Greek or Roman, even though it is a polytheistic religion.

Yes it is, Adam and eve were not mothered. Then by your logic, they are gods.

It is a religious debate, a fictional religion, that was inspired by real life mythos and ideologies.

Inspired from real life Mythos and ideologies? Really? I didnt know there was a real life religion with a dragon god of time, a human emporer who became a god and son on and so forth.

he was created from Ak.

This is a made up religion in a fictional world, real world ideas and things dont really apply. He is his son. That is it.

Really just give up, you are trying to fight a losing battle , its sorta confirmed in the lore that he is Akatosh' son.

/end thread