Adam was created from the earth, formed in Yahweh's image. Eve came from the rib bone, although going by the Dead Sea Scrolls, there was another woman before Eve, but that's another story. Ak (by Skyrim lore), isn't shaped, isn't produced by Ak, it just leaves Ak, it is part of Ak. Not to mention how godlike Adam was before eating the fruit of Knowledge.


Not really. Its pretty evident that Al comes from Ak and his an embodiment of him. And know more about representation through mythos.

I'm afraid you don't know TES lore and religion, so we aren't really having a debate, just an argument over semantics.
You are apparently under the belief that being created by a divine being means you are that divine being, and in TES that just flat out isn't how it works.

Please state in the exact spot where in the Elder scrolls lore where it states the Alduin is a part of Akatosh the came from him. For all we nknow Akatosh coulda grabbed a clump of [censored] and breathed on it to make Alduin and the rest of the dragons.

Everyone needs to stop talking as if there is a clear and certain answer to this. Debate is fun and all, but repetition is just annoying. In the end, every single person in this thread who's made a factual statement is speculating and declaring their speculative conclusions as fact. Even if this is a fictional debate on the internet, it's bad form, poor logic, and the root of the most common human evil, religious hubris.

Clearly there is a lack of evidence, and because that's the way Bethesda likes it, so it shall remain, and speculation is all you'll have at the end of the day. It will never be fact and it would behoove the intelligent amongst us to stop stating fact where only speculation lives.

^^^pretty much this 100%

Yet, it is how it works. If your created purely from the deity, then you are a form of that deity, in body and spirit. Know more about lore.

Where does it say Alduin was created from Akatosh, and not by Akatosh?

Go through the main quest and read the lore books that are new to Skyrim (obviously cant link it since it hasn't even been transcribed to a wiki yet). That is all. Off to watch some Boardwalk Empires

Peace.

Edit: When I come back, Ill hunt said books down in game. I remember one in particular that mentions it. I don't make this stuff up, and not even trying to argue, I'm just a lore Nazi, since I need it for my RPs.

I never knew there were set rules on this. Who says this is always the case? Who says this is how it works in TES. Nowhere does it say that so stop acting like its fact

In any case, the game makes it pretty clear the 'Divine Providence' that Alduin claims is just total bull on his part, seeing as he

Again, its in the books.

To debate the point SPECULATIVELY, though, we can turn to a number of interesting sources.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Alduin_is_Real
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Akatosh
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lorkhan

I direct you to the final link to consider Mankar Camoran's opinion of Lorkhan. If this idea were to be believed, then all the Aedra are - in the same sense that Alduin as Akatosh's son, may in a sense be part of Akatosh - "aspects" of the Daedric Prince of Tamriel, Lorkhan. Aedra could simply be a fair term for the "local" Daedra. It makes for better conjecture than "Is Alduin also Akatosh", because it has many far reaching implications.

Whereas whether or not Alduin = Akatosh, one wants to eat you and one is known to have saved the world. If Alduin is really an aspect of Akatosh, that would suggest he is in fact 'meant' to succeed in destroying (and thereby allowing Akatosh to renew?) the world. Although I don't have a lore reference for that very "Ragnarok" concept being part of Alduin's purpose.

Until you show which books exactly you have no proof and you argument is invalid.

An interesting book: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Alduin/Akatosh_Dichotomy
All the books. Yes they're in: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Books

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/shor-son-shor-full Being the son of Akatosh does not mean he can't be Akatosh.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/skyrim-there-be-dragons They are never born. They have always existed. Yet somehow, Alduin managed to exist before the others.

Erandur, I like what you said about Ald being the "son of Akatosh" means he is an embodiment of time.

Vairites of Faith in the Empire, The Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy, The Seven Fights of the Aldudagga, and The Tale of Dro'Zira all call Alduin the Nordic version of Akatosh.

Too many people using the UESP as a source. Guys, listen. The UESP is good for gameplay. For lore, there is often a lot of mistakes.

Take a step back for a second and listen to what he said. If something is created purely out of one material, then it is that material. A real world example being a sword made of copper. If there are no other materials creating such a sword, then that sword is copper, despite its utility and branding of being a sword. So, if Alduin was born directly out of Akatosh, that means he is a pure embodiment of Akatosh. He's not the entirety of Akatosh however, and that's where I find a flaw in his argument. As I stated before, Alduin is likely an embodiment of Akatosh as a sort of emissary to the realm/plane of existence men and mer populate, as Aedra do not visit that realm.
Sovengard(sp) is where humans, possibly even just Nords, go when they die. There's not much to draw from that argument.

I think it's more like The Evil Dead. My hand is a part of me, but if it turns evil and I cut it off, it's no longer a part of me. It's my evil, disembodied hand that (finger) runs around causing havok, and which I would like to destroy. So I put a chainsaw on my wrist-stump and go hunting for it. Even if in a sense it's still my hand.

I know it's a completely unrelated example, but I had to throw some water on the burning zealotry around here. There's more than one interpretation. It's not necessarily the case that Alduin = Akatosh because Alduin came from Akatosh.

If we (sigh) go back to religious examples... J-man is the son of G-man. J-man IS G-man. They are both the big G. But aren't all Angels also spontaneously generated by the big G before time began as well? Are they also part of the big G? How about the one that turned evil and became the ultimate embodiment of evil and the nemesis of all things good? Is the big bad just part of the big G? If so where do we draw the line? Is the whole universe just a singular entity having strange dreams and internal psychological conflict embodied in a physical and metaphysical world?

If so, then yes, Alduin is Akatosh. And the dragonborn is also Akatosh, and all of them are also Lorkhan.

One word-


Inception

:lol: It's starting to sound that way. Ty, I liked your example and it's perfectly relevant. If Alduin is Akatosh's proverbial evil hand, why wouldn't Akatosh destroy him? I don't know. If you're right about the dragon born being yet another descendant of Akatosh, then I guess he did in the end.

An interesting discussion guys. Have a good night, I have to write a paper.

Quote from book Akatosh Dichotomy:
Whether or not he is actually a deity remains in question, but the Alduin of Nord folklore is in fact a dragon, but one so ancient, and so powerful, he was dubbed the "World Eater," and some accounts even have him devouring the souls of the dead to maintain his own power. Other stories revolve around Alduin acting as some sort of dragon king, uniting the other dragons in a war against mankind, until he was eventually defeated at the hands of one or more brave heroes.

Auriel, the Aldmer Akatosh, is a genocidal maniac. Akatosh is not always the Friendly Dragon. Two Nordic gods (Tsun and Stuhn) almost [censored] Dibella because she talked using logic, which is Jhunal's job. The Nine in Cyrodiilic myths are friendly, but others are very, very, very violent. Tosh Raka, Akaviri Akatosh, wants all Tsaesci dead.

Akatosh (the one we know, not the name) was created when Alessia realized she needed to create a pantheon that would please her Nordic allies and wouldn't make her people revolt (they worshiped Elven gods). We get something unlike Auriel or Alduin, both of which are Anti-human and Anti-Mundus. We get Akatosh the Friendly Dragon God of Time.

Kyne, Nordic Kynareth, is also violent. A warrior-wife of Shor. Shor (though not an Aedra) is just as insane and violent as Alduin. Ysmir, one of his incarnations, slaughtered anyone who didn't follow the Nordic pantheon. Pelinal, another aspect, slaughtered any and all elves.

The gods are very violent my friend.

Hmmm

You're told in the game that Akatosh made you the way you are - that's very different to what Alduin's doing

They're not the same. First born son I reckon

They're separate, but the same. Think of it as a split personality, if those personalities could be in more than one place at the same time.

My point isn't that the gods are friendly, it's that Akatosh, being a Divine, doesn't need to do anything to be powerful, and remain powerful.
Alduin was so weakened by fighting with you that he ran away to eat souls to regain his power.
Besides which, if he wasn't a dragon then why would you have an advantage over him as Dragonborn?
Dovahkiin wouldn't help you against an Aedra (Note: Akatosh is not a dragon, he can take whatever form he wants).

If you've played through the game, the entire atmosphere, text, and context all imply that Alduin and Akatosh are two seperate beings, which I'll take as more accurate even as circumstantial evidence than the books and history which you see in game, which is all very much in-context.
I would tend to take the Nords' point of view as more accurate (they believe that Alduin is an evil dragon, and that Akatosh is a good Aedra), seeing as how they have history that was given to them firsthand by somebody who was there when [censored] went down.

Akatosh lost the vast majority of his power during the creation of Mundus. He isn't powerful. He's mortal. Why wouldn't he attempt to regan his power when he is dead for 90% of his existence. He does nothing but float around as planet Akatosh. Sure, he "offers" a blessing now and again. But he can't do anything. In fact, the entire basis of Auriel is his rage at the loss of his divinity.

Also, the Nords liking Akatosh is Bethesda [censored] up the lore. Alessia barely avoided a war with the Nords due to the Nedic worship of Akatosh. They really, really, really, REALLY did not like Aldmeri gods. Guess who Akatosh is? The Ayleid Auriel. Unless they somehow forgot about all that in the early first era and remembered it when that book was written. If anything, Akatosh comes from Nedic influence on Nordic religion.

Aedra is an Aldmeri term. They would never call Auriel a god. Because he is their ancestor. The concept of "gods" is a mannish idea. Dragons consider Alduin much in the same way as the elves consider their gods. A big brother like being. In the Aldmeri mind, Auriel is the same as you, just stronger. In the Nordic mind, Shor is a god. A creator, not a great great great great Grandfather.

Alduin being the son of Akatosh doesn't mean he can't be the Dragon God of Time. One text even calls him Ald son of Ald.

Dragons just exist. They are never born. They just "are". Yet somehow Alduin came before the rest of things that have always existed.