Alduin's Wall : V - Skyrim

» Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:19 pm

You don't truly interact with the nine, they are just avatars, they have no real power. Mannimarco ascended to become a demi-god because of the Mantella, he isn't an Aedra. Also I see the same people using this lore to try to believe that the aedra can affect the world also believe that Lorkhan is still alive when he isn't. I mean, his corpse is floating above Nirn and the Nerevarine destroyed his heart. Just because manifestations of him show up occasionally doesn't mean he is alive, they are echoes of him, sort've like imprints in the world.

I think you are taking things too literally.

Yes, Dibella is a planet in the sky. But that planet is just how her sphere translates to our limited mortal comprehension.
Things are not one thing, and one thing only.

Akatosh is the god of time who participated in the creation of the world, sacrificed a lot of his power, but he is also at the same time a dragon that is sleeping, to devour the world when he wakes. It is a part of his role, his sphere, his very purpose.
Also, I do not believe it is ever mentioned that Aedra cannot manifest themselves on Nirn. Aedra can create, Daedra can change, is all that is mentioned on that as far as I know.
Besides, there is speak of all previous elder scrolls happennings being key steps in a prophecy that foretells the awakening of the dragon. If an Aedra needed some special help to actively affect Nirn, those would be like keys put in locks.

Mannimarco became an Aedra when he used the mantella to achieve apotheosis. When his sphere, his moon in the sky, eclipses Arkay it allows for the creation of black soul gems.

» Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:26 am

But that doesn't mean that Akatosh and Auriel can't be your ally while Alduin is your enemy.

I really like the sound of this!

» Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:05 pm

I read somewhere that Akatosh is like, the god of creation, protection (not sure about this one) and destruction.

well,let's just say you can see them all separately. at first, he created part of the world, and then that personnality vanished. then, in oblivion, he protected the world, by opposing Merhunes Dagon. Then it vanished. Now, the circle is almost complete, he just needs to destroy it and start over again...

well that's just the way I see it anyways. It's probably not the right thing, but it still would be logic for me

» Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:09 pm

What a stupid update. What does the red mountain incident have anything to do with the return of alduin? Absolutly nothing if you read the game informer "secrets". lame. I can't wait for a REAL update. Give me a smidgeon of gameplay or some more pictures. Something of value other than "you start out in prison". Ugh, it's like reading one of IGN's meaningless lists.

» Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:54 pm

Mannimarco became a god or et'ada. Not necessarily Aedra or Daedra. To be honest I couldn't tell you exactly what he is, except his true form is a giant black moon in the waters of Oblivion that shines a light down on Mundus, somehow blocking Arkay's protection of souls.

» Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:51 pm

Mannimarco became a god or et'ada. Not necessarily Aedra or Daedra. To be honest I couldn't tell you exactly what he is, except his true form is a giant black moon in the waters of Oblivion that shines a light down on Mundus, somehow blocking Arkay's protection of souls.

Yes.
I think his moon orbits Arkay.
If Mannimarco orbits in such a way that it blocks out Arkay's influence on Mundus (an eclipse) every 8 days, that would allow for the creation of black soul gems in a lore consistent manner.

» Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:16 pm

That is also a nord fairy tale that was obviously a fairy tale by the way it was written. It isn't fact. It may be based on a shred of fact but that isn't actually how it happened. In actual lore, not Kirkbride musings, the world hasn't been eaten by a dragon multiple times, it was created once.

Pretty soon Akel caused Satak to bite its own heart and that was the end. The hunger, though, refused to stop, even in death, and so the First Serpent shed its skin to begin anew. As the old world died, Satakal began, and when things realized this pattern so did they realize what their part in it was. They began to take names, like Ruptga or Tuwhacca, and they strode about looking for their kin. As Satakal ate itself over and over, the strongest spirits learned to bypass the cycle by moving at strange angles. They called this process the Walkabout, a way of striding between the worldskins. Ruptga was so big that he was able to place the stars in the sky so that weaker spirits might find their way easier. This practice became so easy for the spirits that it became a place, called the Far Shores, a time of waiting until the next skin. - http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-monomyth

Presently] the half-Elf [showed himself] bathed in [Meridian light] ... and he listed his bloodline in the Ayleidoon and spoke of his father, a god of the [previous kalpa's] World-River and taking great delight in the heavy-breathing of Pelinal who had finally bled... - http://www.imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-song-pelinal

Ooh drat, something actually snuck into the lore.

» Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:21 am

You wouldn't be much of a god if you died when your body did and this is just Vivec, not one of the completely immortal ones. Lorkhan seems to have been separated from his center and trapped in Mundus.

This is the sacrifice the Aedra made to create Nirn. They gave up their immortality out of blindness to the truth of what Lorkhan wanted to accomplish. The reason why the Tribunal couldn't be killed is because they were chained to existence through the power of the heart as if it was a Phylactery of a lich. When the heart was destroyed, their bond to the mortal plane was severed and thus Sotha Sil and Almalexia were free to be killed and never wake again. As for the Aedra not being able to manifest themselves, they haven't been able to manifest themselves on Nirn since the "Dawn Era". I'll have to find a cite for that last statement if you need proof. Frankly, any of the writings of in the Library aren't trustworthy unless the information was in the game or otherwise stated as canon by Bethesda. I understand that your using the fact that the Aedra can take many forms and manifest themselves in multiple places as multiple forms but you can't use this information as definitive fact of how Alduin is Akatosh. I guarantee if Alduin wasn't a dragon, no one would be drawing lines to Akatosh. Frankly, like I said, from the lore, it doesn't seem like it is possible for it to be Akatosh, mainly because why would he try to destroy that which cost him so much to create. Frankly, it seems more likely that Peryite, a Daedra who recently lost his sphere of Order to Jyggalag, who was betrayed and cursed to madness but is now free of the curse, and is now rampaging across Tamriel. Also, all the events in the games isn't what caused the return of Alduin, the heralded it meaning that they were signs that it was getting closer. The only one, it seems from the wall, that made it possible for his return was the Oblivion Crisis which would even reinforce the theory of it being Peryite.

» Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:01 pm

What a stupid update. What does the red mountain incident have anything to do with the return of alduin? Absolutly nothing if you read the game informer "secrets". lame. I can't wait for a REAL update. Give me a smidgeon of gameplay or some more pictures. Something of value other than "you start out in prison". Ugh, it's like reading one of IGN's meaningless lists.

Just was a sign of Alduin's return. Nothing more that just saying, once this happens the world is one step closer to his return.

» Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:50 am

The part on Alduin's Wall that says,

" With the Fourth Era begun, the sons of Skyrim “spill their own blood”, as described by the Blade named Esbern with the announcement trailer. This final terrible event heralds Alduin’s ultimate arrival. As The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim begins, the high king of Skyrim has been murdered. Many within the northern country wish to secede from the crumbling empire, which has been on the decline for 200 years since the fall of the Septim Dynasty. Other Skyrim citizens insist the Empire is still worth fighting for. Conflict between the two sides seems inevitable."

Reminds me of something from the past in Skyrim...

When the last of the Ysgramor line of kings, King Borgas of Winterhold died (or was murdered) during the winter hunt of 1E 369, the Moot, arbiters of the succession, failed to choose the obvious canditate, Jarl Hanse of Winterhold. When the Moot failed to nominate the popular successor it sparked a civil war. The War of Succession was disastrous for Skyrim: it lost the provinces of High Rock, Morrowind and Cyrodiil and cities such as Windhelm were sacked. Skyrim and the Nords engaged in multiple clashes with High Rock over its western Reach, a civil war involving The Wolf Queen of Solitude, an invasion of Cuhlecain's Cyrodiil, and wars with Hammerfell and High Rock during the Imperial Simulacrum.

The war(s) did not end until when the Moot was established to convene only when there was no clear successor. In 1E 420, the Pact of Chieftains brought an end to the conflict.

Interesting.

Spoiler

My previous post on the back history of Skyrim's different Holds, Kings, and the Moot.

But how does the idea of a civil war (seemingly confined to Skyrim) fit with that theory?

Good question I actually had compiled some stuff about that but thought it didn't directly relate so I didn't post it.

When the sons of Skyrim would spill their own blood.

The Sons of Skyrim to me indicates the http://oblivion.wikia.com/wiki/Nedic people who believe that they were created in Skyrim by Kyne when the sky breathed onto the peak of the mountain known as Throat of the World. where http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:High_Hrothgar stands.

The spiritual relationship between the Nords and breath, which is associated with the Sky Goddess Kyne, is also important. As Children of the Sky puts it:

“Nords consider themselves to be the children of the sky. They call Skyrim the Throat of the World, because it is where the sky exhaled on the land and formed them.”

Hence the Song of Return refers not only to Ysgramor's return to Tamriel after the destruction of Saarthal, but to the Nords' return to what they believe was their original homeland.

Atmora was the original home of the Nedic people before they migrated south to Skyrim.

The Nedic people are the ancestors of three of the major modern races that exist in Tamriel. http://oblivion.wikia.com/wiki/Nedic.

A civil war on Atmora had taken place and as a result rose one of the most legendary of all Tamrielic figures, a Nord named Ysgramor, from whom all Nordic kings are descended. Ysgramor gathered all those who wanted to leave Atmora and live in peace. They left Atmora by sea traveling south, eventually arriving at Skyrim at the extreme northern tip of the continent of Tamriel, at a place known as Hsaarik Head.

After arriving in Tamriel, the Nords met and befriended the Falmer, or Snow Elves. The Nords called the land Mereth, in tribute to the Elves that lived there. But the Elves took notice of the rate at which man's population was growing, and soon realized that these men were the first great threat to Elvish civilization on Tamriel.

Contrary to most stories, which erroneously credit Ysgramor with the first human settlement of Tamriel, he and his colonists were simply the latest of a long line of emigrants from Atmora. Indeed, the central continent was already populated by Atmorans and indigenous humans throughout.

Settlers from Atmora made landfall on Skyrim many times before claiming the region as their own. These spaced-out migrations often resulted in clashes with the Aldmer. As it goes, elves and men lived in relative peace and prosperity for a great deal of time. Racial tensions between the two species gradually rose however and it wasn't long before conflict erupted.

The Elves led raids throughout the settlements of men that had come to Tamriel. Most of the Nords were hunted down until only Ysgramor and his two sons survived. They fled back to Atmora on the last remaining longship.

Ysgramor gathered the armies of the nations of Atmora into one large army known as the Five Hundred Companions and set on south to invade Tamriel. When they arrived, they quickly slaughtered the Falmer and made possible the rise of men, eventually creating the Empire.

His clan expanded their territory, and it continued to expand and contract by winning and losing territories in Morrowind and High Rock. After quarrels from the rivalries of the Ysgramor clan however, Skyrim weakened and separated into multiple states during the War of Succession.

- The men that stayed in the cold regions of Skyrim became what we now know as the Nords.
- The Nedics that left to live in High Rock met the Aldmeri already living there. Over time, they interbred, and the Bretons were born.
- The Imperials formed after both the Nedic and Ayleid (wild elves) peoples arrived in Cyrodiil at approximately the same time. Inevitably, there was war, and the Ayleids enslaved the Nedics to create their empire, which was centered around White Gold Tower. Soon after the start of the First Era, the Nords of Skyrim inspired the Nedic slaves to rebel against the iron fist of the Ayleids. So, under the lead of the Slave Queen Alessia, the Nedics rose and fought for freedom in 1 E242. The Alessian Empire of Cyrodiil started in 1 E243 with the crowning of Alessia. At this point, the Nedics in Cyrodiil were becoming what we know as the Imperials.

The history of Skyrim shows that it was only united for brief periods.

The people of Skyrim are ruled by a hereditary King from the Ysgramor Dynasty bloodline. King Harald, at the beginning of the First Era, was the first to relinquish all holdings in Atmora (_{Until that time, the Nords of Atmora and Skyrim had been considered the same group the Nedic or Nedes.}), proclaiming that the people of Skyrim were an independent people. King Harald died in 1E 221and his son, Hjalmer, becomes the next king. King Hjalmer died in 1E 222 and the second son of King Harald, Vrage the Gifted, takes the throne. Vrage the Gifted started the expansion that would eventually lead to the First Empire of Men.

The system which chose the successors to the empire eventually proved to be the Empire's undoing. For a great while the Moot, a gathering of the lords of the many different Holds, chose the successor to the Empire..The majority of Skyrim are ruled by petty Kings and chieftains of villages. The different Holds are ruled by mostly-elected Moots, as well as a Lord of some sort.

The concept of Civil Wars between Skyrim factions AKA Holds is not a new thing either…

When the last of the Ysgramor line of kings, King Borgas of Winterhold died (or was murdered) during the winter hunt of 1E 369, the Moot, arbiters of the succession, failed to choose the obvious canditate, Jarl Hanse of Winterhold. When the Moot failed to nominate the popular successor it sparked a civil war. The War of Succession was disastrous for Skyrim: it lost the provinces of High Rock, Morrowind and Cyrodiil and cities such as Windhelm were sacked. Skyrim and the Nords engaged in multiple clashes with High Rock over its western Reach, a civil war involving The Wolf Queen of Solitude, an invasion of Cuhlecain's Cyrodiil, and wars with Hammerfell and High Rock during the Imperial Simulacrum.

The war(s) did not end until when the Moot was established to convene only when there was no clear successor. In 1E 420, the Pact of Chieftains brought an end to the conflict.

We’re told that the cities of Solitude and Winter Hold hold a bitter rivalry between one another.

Solitude, also known as Haafingar, is one of the most influential and wealthy counties in Skyrim. Rival of Winterhold, It is famous for being the northernmost town in Tamriel and infamous as the seat of the so-called Wolf Queen, Potema.The home of the famous Bards' College, Haafingar is also one of Skyrim's chief ports, and ships from up and down the coast can be found at her crowded quays, loading timber and salted cod for the markets of Wayrest, West Anvil, and Senchal.

Winterhold, Solitude's ancient rival, is the capital of the namesake county and a coastal fortress, located on the northeastern tip of Skyrim. Somewhat isolated from the rest of Nord culture, but still wealthy and influential, it is known as one of the Old Holds. Due to its proximity to Morrowind's border, Winterhold is heavily affected by Dunmer ways and ideas, fueling part of its economy.

Spoiler

Another Take on this...

The "When the sons of Skyrim would spill their own blood." could also be a indicator of Time.

"Til the time after Oblivion opened"

The word "Til" to me indicates this line is just a marker in time. Til meaning "Until" onto the next line, is that too a continuation of the first part, just marking time?

"When the sons of Skyrim would spill their own blood"

(Guess this was right after all)

So much like when Tiber Septim used Thu’um to show the Nords that he was the true son of Skyrim (from the Ysgramor Bloodline perhaps) could that be what the Dovahkiin does?

I think the Dovahkiin will be from the Bloodline of Ysgramor making him able to unite Skyrim together again, making him the true Heir to the Empires of Man, the rightful leader of the Ysgramor Dynasty not some petty lord chosen by the Moot. AND

As the main story progresses and you earn your dragon shouts I think there will be a time come when the player (Dovahkiin) has to unite Skyrim and perhaps all of Tamriel together against Alduin.

» Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:41 am

. Frankly, it seems more likely that Peryite, a Daedra who recently lost his sphere of Order to Jyggalag, who was betrayed and cursed to madness but is now free of the curse, and is now rampaging across Tamriel. Also, all the events in the games isn't what caused the return of Alduin, the heralded it meaning that they were signs that it was getting closer. The only one, it seems from the wall, that made it possible for his return was the Oblivion Crisis which would even reinforce the theory of it being Peryite.

How did Peryite lose his plane to Jyggalag?
They do not control the same sphere.

Peryite's sphere is the ordering of the lower levels of oblivion, he is the taskmaster.
Whereas Jyggalag's sphere is Order. In a cold, deterministic everything accounted for and everything in its place kind of way.

They are two seperate spheres.

» Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:07 pm

Sleign, go home.

» Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:43 pm

How did Peryite lose his plane to Jyggalag?
They do not control the same sphere.

Peryite's sphere is the ordering of the lower levels of oblivion, he is the taskmaster.
Whereas Jyggalag's sphere is Order. In a cold, deterministic everything accounted for and everything in its place kind of way.

They are two seperate spheres.

That's why I said it "might" be Peryite because Peryite "might" have lost his realm to Jyggalag because Peryite's realm is the closest to that of Jyggalag's because of the fact that the new Sheogorath still controls his plane and Jyggalag is most certainly out for revenge. All of what we have talked about is speculation in this thread but my final opinion is that Alduin is not Akatosh and we will find out when Skyrim comes out. If it is Akatosh, I will eat my own words and let you all smear my name for years to come. Also if it is Akatosh, then he will also die. As for the "cycle" they talk about, that is not the cycle of time, it is the cycle of life and they are able to avoid it by moving in paths, defined as constellations. It has been written in books before that time is linear, not cyclical and Akatosh keeps it so.

Sleign, go home.

lol, I love how people think they are so high and mighty in lore because they post in the lore section. Just because you post there doesn't mean you know more than someone who doesn't I've kept up on all things TES since 1998, I've read all the in-game books and I've even read over things in the library, don't act like you have some insight into something that others don't.

» Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:23 pm

nevermind.

» Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:59 am

nevermind.

Sheogorath was the Daedric prince created from that curse. Jyggalag was who he was originally and he was freed from the curse when the Champion of Cyrodiil defeated him and the Champion of Cyrodiil became Sheogorath. Jyggalag is now free and I'm sure he is pissed.

» Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:46 pm

Based on the facts that we know,it could be that Alduin is actually Akatosh.

We know the following facts:

1.Akatosh is a dragon.
2.Alduin is a dragon
3.The only ones capable of fighting dragons,are the dragonborns.
4.Alduin was alive and animate in the past,and he just "froze" at an uknown time,until the conditions of the prophecy are fullfilled.
5.Tiber Septim was a dragon born,killed a dragon.lit the dragonfires and became emperor.
6.The heirs of Tiber where too dragonborns,even Martin.
7.Since Tiber Septim Akatosh is the protector (?) of the empire.
8.It was Martin's will that he merged with Akatosh to destroy the Prince of Destruction,meaning that Septims have some power over Akatosh. (since they can call him to fight for them whenever they want)
9.The prophecy says that after the Oblivion gates open,a civil war will wreck the empire and then Alduin will come back.
10.When the Oblivion gates closed,the Amulet of Kings was destroyed,and there wasn't any other dragonborn of the Septim familly left.

So,my theory says that perhaps the dragon that Tiber Septim neutralized was Alduin,and Alduin's body was left at stasis somewhere while his spirit was trapped by Tiber Septim.
And since Septim have his soul and he is a dragonborn he can command or control to some point Alduin's powerful soul.
Tiber Septim might used Alduin's soul for good purposes,and thus making the dragon's doings be good.
But that doesn't mean that Alduin's soul is following orders with it's own will.
Perhaps after several generations word of mouth was spread that the Royal Family has a dragon protecting them,and the empire.
Through centuries,history was distorted and Alduin's soul became known as Akatosh a supposed "Good dragon god that protects the empire".
But what if the amulet of Kings was the container of Alduin's soul,working as a soul gem ?
And with it broken,and no more Septims the "curse" broke and Alduin's soul was able to return to it's body.
Now Alduin reanimates himself wanting revenge.

» Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:58 am

This is the sacrifice the Aedra made to create Nirn. They gave up their immortality out of blindness to the truth of what Lorkhan wanted to accomplish.

While that's what the in-game lore says, it's also clear in-game that the gods do not die in the sense that mortals do. One possible explanation is that, because the god-planes are somehow bound to Mundus and support its existence, that they die when Mundus dies. That is, at the end of the kalpa.

The reason why the Tribunal couldn't be killed is because they were chained to existence through the power of the heart as if it was a Phylactery of a lich. When the heart was destroyed, their bond to the mortal plane was severed and thus Sotha Sil and Almalexia were free to be killed and never wake again.

It's unclear that the proper term for what happened to the heart was "destruction". Nevertheless, it's clear that breaking their bond to the heart allowed them to... well, at least be permanently sent to the timeless place and rendered unable to interact with Mundus, whether or not they are actually dead as such. However, the Aedra are similarly chained to the aedric planes.

As for the Aedra not being able to manifest themselves, they haven't been able to manifest themselves on Nirn since the "Dawn Era". I'll have to find a cite for that last statement if you need proof.

I think we'd need a pretty strong cite, given that they have manifested themselves within the Third Era. The Daedra are very limited in their ability to interact with Mundus outside of certain times (e.g. summoning days, assassinations of Emperors -- that may have just been Dagon, considering none of the other Princes invaded).

I guarantee if Alduin wasn't a dragon, no one would be drawing lines to Akatosh.

It's not like this is a recent theory or something -- people have equated Auriel, Akatosh, and Alduin since Morrowind, where Varieties of Faith in the Empire stated "Alduin (World Eater): Alduin is the Nordic variation of Akatosh, and only superficially resembles his counterpart in the Nine Divines."

» Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:49 pm

Based on the facts that we know,it could be that Alduin is actually Akatosh.

We know the following facts:

Well actually, it wasn't Tiber Septim whom Akatosh approached, it was Alessia. The pact was for men to pledge their faith to Akatosh and the other divines and he would seal Oblivion from Nirn so that the Ayleid's couldn't gain their endless armies of daedra. The Amulet of Kings gave no power of Akatosh or any of the dragons, I'm not sure where this information came from that leaked into the forums but it's not true. As for Tiber Septim defeating Alduin, according to the information we have now, Alduin was banished long before Tiber Septim and it seems to be by 3 people. I'm just going to stop arguing lore because those that post in the lore forums disagree but won't take the time to try and see another side other than their "proof" that is only a handful of cryptic, paradoxical documents in the lore. We will see who wins out in November, the lore buff that doesn't post on the lore forums (me) or the lore buff from the lore forum. Only time will tell (see what I did there?) I do tip my hat to you perilisk, you at least have an open mind and listen to others information they put forward.

» Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:51 am

Alduin = Dragon God of Circular Time (Eternal Recurrence)

Akatosh = Dragon God of Linear Time

Peryite = Dragon God of uhhh....something

» Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:20 am

Alduin = Dragon God of Circular Time (Eternal Recurrence)

Now this I have mentioned before. That Alduin may be some shade-like entity created by accident as Akatosh finished creating Nirn with the other Aedra and it took a form similar to that of Akatosh. But as I've said, Alduin will not be Akatosh and isn't Akatosh in disguise.

Also Peryite is the Dragon god of kicking ass and taking names.

» Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:48 am

Now this I have mentioned before. That Alduin may be some shade-like entity created by accident as Akatosh finished creating Nirn with the other Aedra and it took a form similar to that of Akatosh. But as I've said, Alduin will not be Akatosh and isn't Akatosh in disguise.

Also Peryite is the Dragon god of kicking ass and taking names.

We will just see it when the game come out

I hold that Akatosh is Alduin. Creator and destroyer, a snake that eats its own tail.

» Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:09 am

We will just see it when the game come out

I hold that Akatosh is Alduin. Creator and destroyer, a snake that eats its own tail.

Totally a theory with merit, I don't say that it's not an interesting theory, I just have a different idea of it. I hope no one took it that I was degrading their ideas when I disputed it. I just care if the true lore in Skyrim turns out to be truly great. :smile:

» Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:37 pm

Guys, we've known that http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-varieties-faith-empire since Morrowind.

» Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:07 am

Guys, we've known that http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-varieties-faith-empire since Morrowind.

We've known that the genreal populace believes them to be the equivelant gods. That doesn't have to mean they're literally the same being in all cases.

» Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:30 pm

Sleign,

You've countered sources with musings of your own. So you have an idea. OK. When you piece a theory together, from the docs, and, rather than crying "bias" at countering sources, accommodate them, folk will consider what you want to say.

You're doing exactly what you blame MK with having done, except you're not being all that creative and goofy about it.