Maybe akatosh suffers from multiple personality disorder. Or akatosh is just having a bad day and wants to destroy all living being on nirn.

If i was the hero i would just be like "dude what's up with all this destory the world stuff can't we just be chill, seriously bro."

That's exactly the case. Will the real Mad God please stand up?

Did you play morrowind ever? remember Wulf? or Ama Nin? or Jon Hawker?


Everyone would draw the parallel, in-game books say so very blatantly.

Different kinds of order. Peryite is the taskmaster, ordering people around. Jyggalag is the Price of order in that he has like super-OCD. Also, after oblivion, a Daedra couldn't attack.

Your further ranting about Jyggalag only points out holes in all of your lore knowledge unless it has been stuffed down your thought by a mainquest.

Oh, and Akatosh DOES suffer from multiple personality disorder. Or rather, two spirits constantly shift their personalities between Shor and Him.

The mortality/divinity thing is always a little unclear with Aedra. There are some not-quite-canonical implications that Akatosh himself was a mortal golden dragon that ascended to godhood just as Tiber Septim, but by becoming one with Auriel rather than a new god. Alduin could have done the same to Akatosh.

We don't really know how Alduin can be manifest on Mundus. The lore is pretty vague on this point -- on the one hand, Aedra don't tend to directly involve themselves in mortal affairs in the way that Daedra do, presumably since their energies are largely directed at preserving the natural and social order of Mundus. On other hand, if they've decided to destroy the world, that will probably no longer be a concern. It could also be that the lore was deliberately misleading, and that the lack of aedric intervention was due to some sort of restraint imposed on them from the mortal world.

Tiber Septim's antics in Skyrim have always been something of a mystery, one which will probably be unraveled a bit in Skyrim. However, his ascension to godhood is almost certainly tied more directly to Numidium and the Underking than Alduin and Akatosh (incidentally, in real world mythology, Talos was a giant made of bronze). Only certain people were capable of controlling the Numidium -- like the amulet of kings, it may have only responded to dragonborn. Mannimarco was able to use it to kinda sorta ascend to godhood, and it has some ties to Lorkhan, insofar as it was originally created as a vessel for his heart.

Martin was able to call on and merge with Akatosh because the Amulet of Kings contained a portion of Akatosh's power -- though I imagine only a dragonborn could use the Amulet such a fashion. However, it's not clear whether the Amulet was a gift from Akatosh as a symbol of a covenant (the straightforward pro-Imperial view), or a portion of his essence stolen by the Shezzarine, perhaps in retaliation for the betrayal of Lorkhan and theft of his divine spark (the subversive view). If the latter case, it may explain the (relative) lack of aedric involvement in the world since the Amulet's creation. That is, removing Lorkhan's divine spark from Red Mountain made it possible to open the doors to Oblivion; so perhaps removing Akatosh's divine spark from White Gold Tower will make the return of the aedra to Mundus possible (that would suggest there is some aedric anologue for the Dragonfires that would be holding them back even in the absence of the stone from the tower). But I'm just speculating.

Okay, so I was wondering how they defeated/sealed Alduin and I got to thinking. What if they used the Staff of Chaos to do so, it would make sense then for the shattering of it to be a sign of Alduin's return and the Figure in the middle does look like he is holding a staff. But, Truth be told I'm no expert on the Lore, so I could be wrong.

You're attacking with arrogance. If you break down into arrogance, you have already lost the argument.

I posted this awhile back in my http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1152130-the-story-behind-skyrim-v20/page__view__findpost__p__16865167 but I think it pertains to the topic of discussion so I'm going to re-post it.



I'm on the side where Alduin is Akatosh.

so is there a official theory about skyrim after going through this interesting argument? :confused:

i agree with you. akatosh is a perserver, while alduin is a destroyer. theres a book i cant remember that says alduin only superficially related to akatosh. his traits and purpose are entirely differant.

Likely no, and likely there won't be an agreed upon theory till we get more info or Bethesda gives us some confirmation.

If it's official it wouldn't be just a theory would it? Unless you're talking of a theory the populace in Tamriel fictionally thought of.

The only thing official is was Bethesda has directly released in-game or through other media releases(interviews, book etc).

Dunno where else to post this, and don't feel like making a separate thread. With the Norse inspiration in Skyrim, does anyone else get a "J?rmungandr" vibe when it comes to Alduin? The whole "World Eater" deal and such.

Also reminds me of Odin Sphere, which was also drew inspiration from Norse Mythology and had its own dragon (Leventhan, which is based off of J?rmungandr) appearing to destroy the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr

http://odinsphere.wikia.com/wiki/Leventhan

Just something that caught my attention. Not meaning to derail the whole theory discussion.

They aren't my own musings, it's lore that I have read over the years. I didn't cry "bias" when people were citing their sources, I retaliated to the comment "Go Home Sleign" because he said it with an air of how I was out of my league and that since I'm not a figure in the lore forums I'm not worthy of putting forth an alternate theory.



Really? What arrogance was that? All I did was point out that just because someone doesn't post in the lore forums doesn't mean they don't know as much lore as those that do. It wasn't arrogance on my part, it was arrogance on his part. Now if you think it makes me arrogant saying I know as much as those of the lore forum then it says more about your arrogance than mine.

But as I said, it may list the pantheons of the different races but you have to take some information in the lore with a grain of salt. Arkay has three different possible creation myths in the lore for him and one of the stories talk about how Alduin drained the age out of the nords until he was called back by Orkey even though we now know that Alduin was banished. We have to allow the game to progress and find out the lore through that because much of the lore in TES is paradoxical and cryptic just like much of the lore of in real life civilizations. We just can't take it for granted that Alduin=Akatosh.

Correction: We know that Brother Mikhael Karkuxor believes them to be the equivalent gods. And that book dates at least 300 years before the events of Skyrim.

peryite being the destroyer is impossible, since akatosh sealed the barrier permanently, no daedric prince can ever step into the mortal plane again, i doubt peryite could've slipped through.

its still weird thinking of akatosh as a destroyer... true, everything seems to point to him, being the dragon god of time, and time being a world-eater, etc...

but also, tell me this... alduin commanded mehrunes dagon to find the pieces he hid and undo all the trouble he caused for alduin... why would alduin, akatosh... stop mehrunes dagon from attacking?

i mean, maybe tamriel is one of the pieces that dagon hid from alduin and he was trying to put thing right, again?

also, it just seems odd that one of the benevolent aedra would be so destructive, even more so than all of the daedra!

from what i read, alduin/akatosh CREATED mehrunes dagon, from the sound of it... or made him who he is, atleast.

this whole thing is beyond confusing... i dont think we'll find out the truth until we're all playing the main quest on 11/11/11...

Well that isn't my true theory, I was just making a point that Peryite being the World-eater made more since than akatosh. As for the story your recounting, first of all, it hasn't been cited as canon yet but will most likely show up as a fairy tale book in Skyrim seeing as it was written in a fairy tale form. Writings in that manner just can't be used as a true recount of events. But yes, as I have said and you just said, we will find out who has the right theory when the game comes out.



As I said, Peryite was just an example of how it would be more likely that he would be the world-eater than Akatosh. As for the info about Jyggalag, I was giving a theory of how that could happen off the top of my head and the reason was because as I said, it was closest to his realm due to the fact Peryite's sphere has order in it, not that it IS order. Not to mention Jyggalag was not happy that his brethren cursed him. I don't have info "stuffed down my throat" I have conclusive information given.



Yes, I've played Morrowind, got it the first day it came out. (if it wasn't for the great story and all the books in the game I would've regretted it) The three of them are just are apparitions of Tiber, Mara and Zenithar. They weren't the true gods. Like I said, the Aedra can't physically manifest on Nirn, they haven't physically manifested since the "Dawn Era". All the appearances of them were either apparitions, echoes (Lorkhan, yeah, the dead guy!) or avatars (Akatosh through Martin).

I REAALLYY heavily suspect that the Dwemer disappearance is linked to the first banishing of Alduin!

I'm not sure how the battle of red mountain and the banishing coincide in the timeline but it could be possible.

i just remembered another thing... didnt it say somewhere that the gods can make someone a dragonborn if they see fit to bring a dragonborn into the world?

i know i read that somewhere... anyway, if the gods brought the dovahkiin into the world to fight off alduin, that just makes it even more confusing!

i mean, if alduin is akatosh... and akatosh is the chief of the gods, it seems like his brethren betrayed him by bringing a dragon slayer into the world to stop him.

seems like akatosh and jyggalag would share that in common, both being betrayed by the rest of the aedra/daedra... but then again, i suppose i could be misinterpreting something...

then again, this is assuming there are only the aedra, daedra, and the few other gods we know exist, or existed, maybe alduin is another god that we just dont have much info on yet, other than that "fairy tale", and people are confusing him for akatosh?

this is one of the things i like about the elder scrolls, the lore is an ever-growing puzzle in itself, and it always has us guessing... thats good, keeps a game series fresh and alive. :nod:

I transcribed the Wall info and added lore links and commentary http://www.thedragonborn.com/game-details/alduins-wall-new-update-to-gameinformers-skyrim-hub-story-details/. Seems like a fair chunk of the story will be dedicated to working out how Alduin got beaten the first time...

Great, no information about game mechanics. Meh.

Sleign - You started with "It also pretty soundly puts to rest the thought that Alduin is Akatosh. I guess I was right."
I think this is where the problem lies. Because there objectively aren't any hints that "soundly put to rest" those theories. Many people feel that Alduin's Wall strengthens them. And it does have an air of arrogance when you say "I guess I was right".
I mean maybe I'm reading too much into your behavior, but at least the sentence that sparked this whole argument is pretty biased and polarizing just for the heck of it.

Currently, we have in-game lore that clearly states that Alduin is the Nord version of Akatosh. We're all anxious to see how that will play out, precisely because there are several questions that go with it. But the revelation that Alduin is not Akatosh after all, and that the myths got it all wrong, that would be a major twist. It's certainly possible and it might even be interesting, but it does have to fight against established lore instead of going along well with it.

By the way, I believe you're right that Akatosh couldn't interact with the world. However, all the signs actually explain that very well: After the Staff of Chaos, the Numidium, the Red Mountain, the Oblivion Gates and the civil war in Skyrim, something will happen. A change. It might very well be that this change is what will allow Akatosh to enter the world as a dragon again, or whatever.
There have been theories before about how all those signs (excluding the civil war) might be signs of the end of the world. I'm thinking of the theory where everything's a tower of some sort.

I just wish they'd made the Arena and Morrowind references more obvious because I can't for the life of me see what it's supposed to depict. For Arena they should just show Jagar Tharn holding the Staff of Chaos, and for Morrowind they should show the vulcano more clearly with Dagoth Ur inside it.

I'm not sure if I'm learning (from Perilisk, Iconoklast, et al), or if I'm just going crazy from reading this, but arguing aside this is a very interesting discussion.

It seems more than likely that Alduin is indeed Akatosh and Auriel. To think otherwise seems to be putting too much stock in the GI article (it's clearly worded for the purpose of explaining Skyrim's plot to laymen, without making things as complex or multi-faceted as they are when one looks deeper), and dismisses everything I've come to understand about the complex natures of Aedra.

If Aedra are known to present more than one form, and known to hold more than one state of consciousness (or at least a state of consciousness alien to mortals), and known to operate far outside of mortals' understanding of ethics and morality... I fail to see why Akatosh/Alduin shouldn't be a single entity encompassing both creation/protection and destruction.

What I don't understand, though, is why a world-devouring entity would need to manifest, and destroy on the physical plane at all - is the devouring wholly literal; must Alduin tear down, scorch and consume every plant and animal lifeform? I would have assumed the destruction of a world (especially at the hands of a god-like spirit entity) would be mostly metaphorical and/or cosmic in nature.

But I don't know much lore, and I have a lot more questions, so I guess I'll take them to the lore forum.


Anyway, I enjoyed the GI article, even if I'd rather have seen high-res screenshots, concept art or more info on game mechanics.

Maybe the devs just thought that WoW Cataclysm was so great that they had to have a world devouring dragon too