Recently someone mentioned that the Alessian Order sought to create a style of monotheism. The first time I read about this a few years ago I thought that single god was Akatosh, but after all of the Godhead discussion I've seen lately I've begun to wonder if the Alessians were very much ahead of their time in terms of worship. This discussion will probably be mostly conjectural given the sparse information on the Alessians, but any sources hinting at their theology and religious motives would be greatly appreciated. Also did their adventures in monotheism cause the Selective to break the Dragon? While I'm more interested in the former topics of discussion I'm also a bit mystified by the circumstances under which they danced on the Tower. Has such a ritual known any equals throughout history? Also the consequences equally confuse me. According to TIL:

What is the Tower's protonymic (I know what a protonymic is, but what is the Tower's)? Also the numerology is too obvious here, but what does it mean, that the Tower split into 8 pieces. Which Tower did they dance on? Surely it isn't THE Tower, as in the Wheel. Akatosh then? If so, what do the eight pieces of Akatosh represent? Akatosh, Auri-El, Ruptga, Alkosh, Alduin, and three more pieces? Perhaps that's too simple an explanation.

I'm not quite sure what a protonymic is, unless it just means what it literally means, (ie, something like "First Name"). Based on this, might the Tower's protonymic be 'CHIM' or 'I'?

I agree with the previous speaker, and would add that the eight pieces are the Aedra that they walked the walk of until they'd created Nu-Cyrod.
"Force reboot, now do it our way."

To start of with a nitpick. By the time of Selective, the Alessian order had already created what amounts to monotheism. See the side bar in the first PGE.

Also keep in mind that the introduction only appears in the obscure text version of Where Where you When the Dragon Broke. I don't know why it was left out but it may be that what it describes refers to a less fleshed out version of the metaphysics.

I don't think the Selective actually fractured any gods. What they intended to do, remove the elven aspects from Akatosh was impossible. After all the gods are dead, nothing but ghosts wearing masks. However when looking at Vehks teachings the Middle Dawn (Dragon Break) is described as period in which Mundus transforms into a receptacle for a divine being. So I think that rather then attempting to change Akatosh, they made themselves gods to replace the Nine. After all, the Nine were an amalgam of Elven and Nordic gods (Shezarr and the Divines).

As for myself, I was here and there and here again, like the rest of the mortals during the Dragon Break. How do you think I learned my mystery? The Maruhkati Selectives showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn, simply: as above, so below.” - Mannimarco, God of Worms, the Necromancers:

Especially telling in this contest is Manimacro. He claims to have learned the secret of his own divinity from the Selectives!

Also this bit, it's slightly adapted post from earlier. It says a whole lot of things I don't want to rewrite right now.

I like the theory, but I can't really get behind it as it seems like supposition to me. If there was tons and tons of lore on the Dragon Break, particularly on the Selectives and their Tower ritual I'd be more inclined to believe it, but the fact remains that we have two maybe three good sources that all say the same mysterious line in different ways.
And how do you figure that the Selectives couldn't forcefully remove Auri-el from Akatosh? There are in existence five different versions of Akatosh, and wasn't it you who said they were all separate beings given power by myth?

Surely there is a quote from Lessons that also discusses the Dragon Break, but I can't remember it off hand, nor do I remember the Selectives being mentioned by name, so if you know if a passage exists; please link it.

Also the only direct information we have to go on is the quote which states what the Selectives' motive was. It seems particularly unscholarly to discount the reasoning stated in our one prime source. Again if there were loads of sources talking not only about the Dragon Break but the Selectives, their motives, and their methods, I'd be more inclined to believe that they wanted to replace the gods.

And in my opinion they did succeed. After the undefined period of non-linearity ended, I think the Auri-el and Akatosh were more separated then before. Maybe they weren't completely different gods, but I think there were more differences.

To bring this back around to monotheism, does this prove that their single god was Akatosh? Otherwise why would the Selectives be so upset about the similarities between Akatosh and Auri-el?

What is this in reference to? The bit about the Selectives? Anyways text obscurity has never slowed down lore discussion before. XD

Would be a nice way of explaining things, but if we discount it (not that I'm implying that it's what you're implying) we'd be running blind with this particular concept. Although I'm sure we can all agree that the Alessian era and the first Empire is one of the most important areas of TES lore that has been given the least amount of official dev attention.

I'm interested on what your theory is for the "Tower breaking into 8 pieces" bit. Like I said the symbolism of that number is so incredibly obvious that it's blinding. It could refer to so much, and the sheer breadth of possible references is a bit overwhelming for me. I'm guessing though, that you interpret it as the Selectives breaking the Tower into the eight Aedric components with each Selective jumping on and riding them up to Heaven like a rocket. In general though, what Tower exactly did they dance on?

Also where do you get the idea that the Aedra are dead and only ghosts? If that was the case what are the plane(t)s in Aetherius? And how could dead gods kill Lorkhan?

Well yes, I suppose I'm making quite a few assumptions about the selective motivations. Though I'm doing this for a reason.

By looking at the other Dragon Breaks it's possible to say with good certainty that the Dragon Break is caused by multiple gods walking Mundus and what we're dealing with is essentially a natural phenomenom.
Now Manimacro suggests that Selective showed the world how to become gods. So we can assume it was the selective that became gods so we can assume they walked Mundus.

Now I know where they started and I know where it ends. Their motivation however is a problem. They wanted to remove aspects from Akatosh "Finally, the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective channeled the Aurbis itself to mythically remove those aspects of the Dragon God they disapproved of." but that has no relation to gods walking Mundus. However "Whether or not the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective were successful is unknown, and any records of their survival were destroyed by the War of Righteousness that ended the Alessian Order a hundred years later." So as we end up with gods walking Mundus I may assume that they failed and instead decided to chuck out the whole phanteon, replacing it with themselves. An Alessian Tribunal!

The reason I'm arguing against the obscure version of When the Dragon Broke is that the text was provided before it appeared in Morrowind. Two specific points are at odds with the other lore.
First the reference to a tower or a staff that breaks into eight. The only staff that broke into Eight was Jager Tharns. Which seems entirely out of place. The Tower breaking into Eight only features in Vehks teachings as "breakings of the sideways wheel..." which is said to happen during the Middle Dawn, that is the Dragon Break.
Interestingly enough an orchestration of et'Ada, Eight Aedra, Eat the Dreamer is said to have been done resulting in the activation of "requisite adachimelic holding-tendrils". Which is another way to say that the spokes of the wheel held hte world together. The activation of the spokes allong with the notion that the message was passed by the Amulet of Kings (the only thing that can divine what happend during the Dragon Break) suggests that the selective organized the orchestration of et'Ada, Eight Aedra, Eat the Dreamer and danced to it.

Second the description that Scholar-priests of the Alessian Order tamper with the Dragon God of Time. This specific motivation is also only present in the Obscure version of When the Dragon Broke. The rest of the related lore talks about what amounts to "Reaching Heaven by Violins".

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That the Aedra are ghosts of dead gods can be argued from a few points. Starting with their diversity. Belief does not appear to have any effect on the Daedra but it does on the Aedra. The Monomyth also describes how the Aedra died or left Mundus after the Convention, yet they're still present. Then from the sermons "The Aedra would have you believe different, but they were givers before liars. Lies have turned them into biters. Their teeth are the proselytizers; to convert is to place oneself in the mouth of falsehood; even to propitiate is to be swallowed." which is essentially saying that the Aedra gave to the world and then became lairs. To accept the religion of the Aedra, or even to acknowledge them is to accept falshood. So essentially they lie about their own existence.

What remains is belief impressed upon the world, insane ghosts on a ball of dead gods wearing masks.

This in itself is another reason to argue against the motivation of Selective as attempting to remove elements from Akatosh. The Alessians started with mergin Nordic and Elven pantheon. By the time of Alessian Order they had already reduced their pantheon to an unknowable One of which the other gods were aspects. This view is not too different from seeing the world as a ball of dead ghosts of gods. They'd understand Auri-El and Akatosh resonated on the same dead god parts.

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So far I've been arguing that we should (partially) discount their motivations. I've been arguing that rather then trying to alter Akatosh, they settled for ursurping him and the Eight all together.

Suppose I assume they suceeded. How might that be done? Manimacro also references "as above, so below." Which suggests that the heavens are a reflection of earth. Then having eight human gods walk Mundus could be an attempt to Mantle the Aedra. The selectives would walk like the Aedra untill the Aedra would walk like the Selectives.

I'm not quite seeing the effects of that but perhaps some one else does.

I take it to be the point at which Cyrodiil literally and figuratively took the wheel, so to speak.

Mmh. Well we never did sort out where those space gods came from that begat Reman.

Reman was autochthonic, and "this heart is the heart of the world" etc., so I'd say the answer is quite plain.

The tower broke into eight pieces, mimicking the eight worlds of creation which are the aedra.

I can't tell you exactly what they did with those pieces, suffice to say they knew the tower's protonymic, and thus could perform incantations on it. (As Chimere did on Dagon) Just because every protonymic example previous dealt with using the incantations to drain their power, does not mean that that's the only option available. Seems they used it to split the representation of the world into parts they could work with.

Only on account of his mother, that sacred hillock.

And it was in this darkness that King Hrol set out from the lands beyond lost Twil with a sortie of questing knights numbered eighteen less one, all of them western sons and daughters - Remanada

In this world and others EIGHTEEN less one (the victor) is the magical disk, hurled to reach heaven by violence. - Sermons

...unto you it should be known as the Hurling Disk, numbered seventeen... - Teachings

36 Lessons of Vivec was provided before Morrowind as well.

I understand the bit about Jagar Tharn, but I'm confused by the Eat the Dreamer part. It's partly because I never really understood what Eat the Dreamer was about at all, so you've got me over a barrel there. How then do you connect the Dragon Break and Eat the Dreamer?

Also your point about the Lessons should strengthen the obscure lore, should it not? If Vehk says that the Tower broke during the Dragon Break, it does nothing but corroborate the obscure lore. Also if the obscure lore is in fact bad lore, you should probably contact the TIL administrator about changing the Tamriel timeline, as that quote is featured in it.

But now I'm interested in Eat the Dreamer. I'd been discounting it for awhile simply because it was so gosh darned confusing, and I didn't think I had a chance in hell of understanding it.

While the Sermons have been provided before Morrowind, they haven't been changed as far as I know. Unfortunatly the obscure text version of When the Dragon Broke isn't dated so we can't trace that back and estimate how much time passed between the text and Morrowind.

As you might understand of course. I'm putting forward a view that has not been discussed much yet. There was an alternative that was rather popular. It stated that the Selective became the Aedra. Though I think that "became is too strong".

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"At this point all transcription becomes impossible, except by way of sheet music, an orchestration of which was attempted during the reign of [NUMINIT], who, along with everyone else in the symphony's radial madness, was vaporized by adjacentia."

Eat the Dreamer describes a spore-dream. The Moth Priest seems to realize that the world relies on a dichtonomy that isn't actually there. Upon this realisation he Zero-Sums. The actuall transcription of this realisation in text was not possible.
However at some point in time it was attempted to do so with music.

This is clearly attested by ANU and his double, which love knows never really happened. Similarly, all the other symbols of absolute reality are ancient ideas ready for their graves, or at least the essence of such. - Sermons, Scripture of Love

The sermons put forth the same idea, that there is a dichtonomy that isn't there.

"The requisite adachimelic holding-tendrils activated, preventing Imperial collapse. Imposthumously, the Amulet of Kings granted to the "Coccoon Council" that the spore-dream "et'Ada, Eight Aedra, Eat the Dreamer" be immediately stored in the one thousand and eight Cyrodilic weapons of rapture."

You can connect the Dragon Break to eat the Dreamer by the last phrase.

Adachimelic holding-tendrils = the spokes.

The holding tendrils should be fairly obvious as another way to describe spokes which keep the hub of a wheel in place. Ada refers to spirit, chimelic can be either of royality, of starlight or of highspledour. Spirits of Starlight seems most aproriate here, the Aedra in other words.

(Unsure: You know the Hurling Disk is the Wheel without spokes?)

Imposthumously = After death but not in this timeline.

Im is a negative, as in impossible. Posthumously means after death. Suggesting it is impossible to to communicate the message after death. Which seems a little weird.

Even the Elder Scrolls do not mention it -- let me correct myself, the Elder Scrolls cannot mention it. When the Moth priests attune the Scrolls to the timeless time their glyphs always disappear. The Amulet of Kings, however, with its oversoul of emperors, can speak of it at length. - When the Dragon Broke

Considering this fragment it is more clear. The events communicated in the spore dream happened during the Dragon Break. So saying that they were communicated posthumously doesn't make much sense whitout proper time.

Thanks for taking the time to type that. It all makes sense for the most part.

"The requisite adachimelic holding-tendrils activated, preventing Imperial collapse. Imposthumously, the Amulet of Kings granted to the "Coccoon Council" that the spore-dream "et'Ada, Eight Aedra, Eat the Dreamer" be immediately stored in the one thousand and eight Cyrodilic weapons of rapture."

Hurling Disc is not mentioned within the text though, so while I understand your logic in connecting the adachimelic holding-tendrils with the Spokes and even understand the etymology you use to make the connection, I'm not fully convinced.

And this line:

"...along with everyone else in the symphony's radial madness, was vaporized by adjacentia."

Also confuses me, but not in the way that I don't understand what it means. I had thought that this line was saying that the orchestra Zero-Summed and everyone listening Zero-Summed as well because they were simply listening, they were in a state of being adjacent to it.

Even the Elder Scrolls do not mention it -- let me correct myself, the Elder Scrolls cannot mention it. When the Moth priests attune the Scrolls to the timeless time their glyphs always disappear. The Amulet of Kings, however, with its oversoul of emperors, can speak of it at length. - When the Dragon Broke

This though is very helpful. And I would be ecstatic if I could prove to myself that Eat the Dreamer and the Dragon Break were the same event, but I'm not sure it is, and I don't think that's what you believe either, but rather that the Dragon Break is a reenactment of Eat the Dreamer through music, yes?

I did not, in fact know what the Hurling Disc referred to. Thanks for clearing that up.

I could not find an introductory text on the Wheel but this should explain the connection. http://www.mwmythicmods.com/Archives/Lore/Mnemoli%27s%20Gate,%20The%20Hurling%20Disk.htm


That's about what it says.


I can't say what happened or when it happened as the Emperors name has been blanked out. Only that the music was played during a Dragon Break and resulted in the activation of the spokes. This may have been the end or part of the end of a Dragon Break.

I imagine that this was the orchestration the Selective danced too and stretched that instant between understanding and vaporisation into a 1008 year long dawn. It would fit the description of the eight falling stars fairly well and (assuming the stars were the spokes) explain why they took so long to fall.

I gotta point out that it's really shocking to learn that the Aedra are dead. And every fiber of my being that's invested itself in TES is screaming at me to not believe it, but it makes enough sense save one point:

How do the Aedra interact with Nirn if they're ghosts? When exactly did the Aedra die? Directly after lending their skins and bones to make Nirn? If that's the case, how could ghosts kill Lorkhan? Also Aedra and Daedra says:

Saying they can be killed implies that they're not dead but have the potential to die.

Well there is a reason only madman like Vivec and Mankar talk about such things.

It's a bit pointless to talk about an ordering of events in the Dawn Era. But I'd say the turning point was the convention. In the myths this was the point before which the gods variously ripped out Lorkhans heart, departed or died and gave up control over Mundus.

Afterwards there was something different. Without all these gods to dictate different timelines. Everybody thrown together cultured and all with different stories, legends, essentially their own perception of the Dawn. Kinda like what the people must feel like at the start of a Civilisation Game. There was nothing concrete before them, but here they are.

What happens next is freely interpreted from http://www.imperial-library.info/content/light-and-dark.

Their believes resonate with the bones of the world which gives these believes power. At the same time these bones also limit believes. Any idea that strays too far from the original becomes powerless. Hence the ghosts of gods, a memory that comes to life again.

edit:

For what it's worth. I'd like to think of the various explanations of the Aedra as encompassing models with ever increasing accuracy. You start with the notion that gods are there. Then you learn that they're influenced by believe. Then you learn that the gods also have a common core between civilisations. Then you learn they're memories of gods long dead or gone. Each step explains a little bit more about the Aedra but also encompasses the previous step.

In this respect Aedra and Daedra is an introductory text. Just something to help you get started, not something to explain the whole world to you. (And that'd be the most boring read ever).

Oneness in the Paravant's womb.

Yes, that's all very sensible. Why then do I still feel that the Aedra have more power than the Daedra? Perhaps it's the mystery surrounding the Aedra. Also I wonder why the Aedra as ghosts don't have mortal avatars. Being dead never stopped Lorkhan.

They prefer to act in unison, through one agency.

Well, (some of) the Aedra did manifest in Morrowind. Dunno if that counts as having avatars in the same way as Lorkhan. The way I see it, Daedra have (much) more autonomy than the Aedra, but need mortal proxies (via voluntary pact) to influence Mundus directly. The Aedra are Mundus, and so don't need proxies. But since they're dead, they don't end up doing much.



Incidentally, I have been wondering about the Daedra as portrayed in Skyrim. Some of them seem... remarkably powerful. For Daedra. And others significantly weaker. Power and weakness are the wrong terms; free to act directly upon Mundus, I should say. So what gives? Well, the Towers, I suppose... but is that all there is to it? If there is anything to it?

This is off topic. But I've spent time writing it out, so meh.

Also, may I say that this thread is extraordinarily... informative? Educational? That implies there is a right answer, so I'll go with: Interesting. Remarkable, at the very least.

Even though we're not really talking about Alessian monotheism, I enjoy finally wrapping up and discussing a few of the more curmudgeonly topics, especially Eat the Dreamer.

It's still tough to swallow that the Aedra are dead. How has this not gotten out among all the Aedra worshiping peoples of Nirn?

I’ve also wondered about the possibility of Balac-Thurm being the Tower/Staff the Selectives used. Other than the ‘eight pieces’ bit there doesn’t seem to be anything that directly connects it. However Balac-Thurm is seemingly important enough that Tiber Septim’s agents hide it beneath Mournhold (Biography of Barenziah) but all Tharn seems to use it for is to pop Uriel and Warhaft into an Oblivion realm then (maybe) use it to impersonate Uriel (though not that well because Barenziah sees through it almost immediately). Neither of these acts are that impressive especially considering that Mehrunes Dagon was colluding with Tharn. So why is the staff so important? It seems to share a daedric artefacts indestructibility (which might suggest a divine link) but not their tendency to keep cropping up throughout history.

It also appears on Alduin’s wall. Most of the portents appear to be related to a tower being destroyed/deactivated:
Daggerfall: Walk-Brass
Morrowind: Red Tower
Oblivion: White-Gold (and Crystal-like-Law)
The obvious exception being Skyrim’s civil war though that seems to be a mechanism to send souls to Sovngarde for Alduin to consume and therefore regain his strength. It’s not clear what, if any, effect this would have on Snow-Throat.
Why is the Staff of Chaos there (and depicted broken)? Compared to the other games relatively little of a world shaking nature happened in Arena nor did much of obvious importance happen during the Simulacrum – some regional wars and the loss of the Battlespire. That’s a fairly quiet day at the office for Nirn.

So if Balac-Thurm isn’t what the Selectives break-danced on then why is it considered to be so significant? Why would it’s destruction matter?

I reckon because everything mostly works as expected.


I was making the argument that part of the obscure verions of When the Dragon Broke does not really fit in. There is a established metaphysics in which the tower is relevant and the specific bits have been discussed. There is no such metaphysics involving the staff.

So I don't see how this question relates to anything I've said.

I see your point about the obscure version appearing incongruous, however if the allusion to the Staff of Chaos is discounted then it leaves us with a seemingly very powerful/important artefact with little real importance or power which would make it the odd one out on Alduin’s wall.

The metaphysical symbolism of a Tower seems rather mutable when it comes to appearance. Of the Towers whose appearance is known two are mountains, one a bipedal mechanism and one is possibly a tree. Whilst I am far from convinced that the Staff of Chaos and the Staff/Tower used by the Selective are definitely one and the same the text does state: “ A staff or tower appeared before them” Which suggests a certain degree of interchangeability.