if it's in a fallout game, it's fallout lore. fallout 3=fallout game, aliens are in fallout 3, therefore we can conclude that aliens are fallout lore.

For what Ausir said - I really don't think that's ever been the "theme" but more like the general setting. I mean, if it was about struggling to live after an apocalypse, why is the first game set 90+ years after ragnarok? I would've expected a game to take place about the time people were creating Junktown then rather than when it's all said and done.

Humanity's constant power struggle feels more like the overall theme. I mean, that's what the quote "War Never Changes." boils down to doesn't it? Fallout 1, 2, 3, etc. all involve one organization trying to reach a goal that would lead to widespread desolation. In Fallout 1, it was the Master and his army of Hulks. In Fallout 2 it was the President and armed-to-the-tooth soldiers. Fallout 3 continued this presence of a "large-scale threat" but to a smaller setting. Throwing in Aliens to be a side-story threat? Honestly it doesn't feel that out of place. After all, its just another grand power that one man/woman will face, right?

I can't judge how out of place it will be until I see screenshots, really. In truth, enemies from outerspace don't sound too off-kilter because of the retrofuture style, as Ausir said, but they do defy the man vs man struggle a bit.

Part of me wants to blame the previous concept of the Enclave wanted to leave the planet and colonize other worlds. Wasn't that Van Buren? I can't recall.

Semi to non-canon. Its just extra content that does not really have to exist at all, but added for extra just because they wanted to.


Hmm, which fallacy was it that fit this perfectly?


Here ya go:
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Bloomfield_Space_Center#Before_the_Great_War
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Bloomfield_Space_Center_design_document
http://nma-fallout.com/forum/dload.php?action=file&file_id=723

I really wish people would stop throwing the Fallout Bible around, I think it's pretty evident that Bethesda doesn't care about what's in the Fallout Bible (if they've even read it) and are just going off the past games.

I don't think the Fallout Bible really applies to Fallout 3, so whether or not aliens are considered part of the lore or not in it is of little consequence. Personally, I look at what is lore based on the games themselves. Aliens have been "lore" since the original Fallout, most of the original Fallout's special encounters weren't as fruity and OOC as Fallout 2's so the crashed alien ship can be considered "canon". Also there's no OOC content in Fallout 3, and there's two alien encounters in that game.

Aha! I was right! Score one for memory!

The Fallout Bible was considered in some ways. For example, several of the Vaults mentioned in the Bible line up with those in Fallout 3 :>

Ain't no way in hell I'm considering Brotherhood of Steel canon

That's kinda the cruddy part of having a license change hands from the original owner. I still point to FEAR as an example of how a game is considered part of the official storyline one day, then not the next.

IE, if someone buys Fallout off Bethesda, and decides "Fallout 3 was stupid. We're not considering it canon", much like Brotherhood of Steel wasn't considered canon, it would be frustrating to fans of Fallout 3 (but probably better recieved by those who thought Fallout 3 was rather silly in its own right).

Considering some of the little retcons within Fallout 3, you can almost consider them seperate continunities. I really wish they didn't feel the need to retcon FEV into the East Coast so they could have Supes, changing the GECK (and I don't even know why they did that one...there's not even a nifty pen light!), and so on. (If you haven't noticed...I really hate retconning. Anything that makes the past content irrevelant is annoying to me)

If we're going to apply that logic then Shivering Isles isn't cannon because it's a DLC neither was Knights of the Nine which was A DLC or Bloodmoon and Tribunal for that matter. After all they were just extra added to the original games and didn't really have to exist at all. Even though all of them were on the Game of the Year editions though and everyone and their grandmother consider them cannon. If the content is going to be on the Goty it's officially cannon. The reason being is because when the Goty is released they aren't going to keep making copies of the original game. It also doesn't make sense to tell someone who just bought the game with all the DLC on it and saying "it's not cannon because it came after the game." That's not going to fly at all. If you personally don't view it as cannon well that's your opinion but the DLC's will be remembered as Cannon not semi to non-canon I'll bet everything I own on that.

Cept Shivering Isles, Bloodmoon, and Tribunal are expansion, not DLC. They are a league of their own.

Shivering Isles was a DLC (for the record I thought it svcked if you liked fine I didn't) and each one of there DLCs is about the size of Knights of the Nine and isn't nerfed like most of Oblivion's DLC. Since Knights of the Nine is considered Cannon why wouldn't Fallout 3's DLC be considered? It's going to be on the Goty which is the final version of the game and many people are going to buy it afterwards and not having played the orginal verrsion and consider it cannon. My question to you is why wouldn't it be considered cannon? If the only answer you can give me is because it's not a expansion how do you explain KotN being cannon then since the Fallout 3's DLCs are all about that size? If you personally don't like to consider it cannon fine but that won't change the fact that it is cannon.

Noper. http://www.elderscrolls.com/games/shiveringisles_overview.htm. I still don't own it , for some reason; never really interested, though I might consider for the some mods that req it.

As for why not really consider canon, its content quite small to a point that can easily be overlook. In a way, they are just glorified mods created by the Devs themselves.

Yes It's an expansion but it was first and is still available as Downloadable Content. After all everyone who first got the expansion downloaded it (Xbox live, single disk with the content on it) that argument makes no sense whatsoever.



Bethesda has said that they wanted to do more smaller DLCs then a large expansion DLC that everyone has to wait around for. As Far as Glorified mods go give modders enough time they can create mods that are bigger then SI so that argument doesn't really make sense either. This is your personal view which is cool but that doesn't change the fact that it's going to be on the finale version of the game which makes it cannon.

Dam my network svck. Anyways......

http://www.elderscrolls.com/downloads/updates_plugins.htm

The content and anything about Shivering Isles still make it as expansion,but as no means, its still not consider a DLC.


Actually, it quite a tenacity that the Main Quest, and sometime, the expansion, usually get recognize in the long run. It goes back to that the DLC are quite small to even be recognize as canon in the first place.

:facepalm: You do realize I'm talking about Shivering Isles appearing as Downloadable content before it was on the Goty right? Even on the Goty you have to download it to your Xbox, PS3 and PC anyway. I wasn't talking about there very first DLCs but since you brought it up it Siege at Fort Firemoth wasn't on the Goty so if it's considered cannon or not is up in the air.




There actually quite large when compared to other DLC out there while not as big as an expansion that doesn't change the fact there going to be on the finale version of the game which makes them cannon.


.

How is it not a DLC you have to download it don't you? Your going in circles now with the if it's not a huge expansion it's not cannon.

Yes. I did consider that into consideration before I post.


Way I see it, its more that the Dev are having fun making a whole lot of DLC.

Well I hope they had and have fun working on DLCs. The thing though is none are nerfed like a lot of Oblivion's was which was why only two of them were on the Goty. I do get what your saying but there going to be on the final version of the game which would make it cannon for better or for worse.

Wasn't it relesed on a disc before or at the same time as as a DLC?

EDIT: Yup, it sure was.

In the Oblivion Data screen Shivering Isles is listed as DLCShiveringIsles, so yes The Shivering Isles is "DLC". It's expansion sized DLC, but it's DLC none the less.

As a whole pack of GOTY, but still in the line that its can be overlook.


Whether or not its a DLC, its come down its an expansion. The rest of the DLC are just small, or glorified mods.

The events in all the DLC are going to go down as official cannon regardless.



So Knights of the Nine isn't cannon then? The whole argument about size doesn't matter it's official content from Bethesda in the finale version of the game. If they didn't want it to be cannon they wouldn't release it on the Goty the same way they didn't release a lot Oblivion's DLC on it's Goty.

So because it adds a large amount of content in one package, it's considered to outclass the DLCs being released for Fallout 3? I think that's turning a blind eye to the fact that in despite all the SI adds, it's still a "glorified mod" that shares more or less the same level of problems each Fallout 3 mod has had in some way, shape, or form. Heck, Shivering Isles can be considered non-canon simply for the fact that you turn into a demigod in the end, yet still can be killed by a rat.

How about using a different reference to judge if something is an expansion or not? Adding a new worldspace, providing more quests, creating new items to use, etc. is all in the Fallout 3 DLCs thus far, including the upcoming Mothership Zeta mod. Soooo if SI is canon, so should a mod about an Alien invasion :> How about using this to judge if something is canon or not: If the developers of the series deem it so or not. So.... heck, why not bring it up on Interplay's forum?

And as far as I'm concerned, Shivering Isles is more or less a giant glorified DLC mod. It adds a ton, much of which is enjoyed, however it really isn't much of an Expansion, same goes for Bloodmoon and Tribunal. All it adds is a sidequest that doesn't have anything to do with Oblivion's main plot. I mean, Broken Steel can be considered more of an expansion considering the fact that it continues the original story of Fallout 3.

The only things that weren't included were the orrey and houses. Then just a long dungeon crawl for mehrunes dagger, horse armour and spell tomes, nothing that really did anything with the lore.

Plus S.I will hardly be mentioned in the next TES, because at the end the status quo is then resumed, you become Sheogorath and juggalyg (or however you spell it) still exists. They could get away with never mentioning it again if they really wanted to. For all purposes sheogorath is still sheogorath. It might aswell of never happened.

EDIT- Clean up.

KOTN ofcourse is a different story.

Until it is deemed officially canon by the owners of the franchise or referred to in future games you really have no basis to outright declare that no matter what this aliens dlc is going to be canon. Even if it is, if it doesn't impede on any previous encounters, they can do what the hell they like. It's Bethesdas Franchise.

Here's a few comprehensive lists. Feel free to look for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

http://www.unc.edu/depts/wcweb/handouts/fallacies.html

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html

I've not found any that matches that on any of them.

That and they were nerfed was the reason why Todd howard didn't have them on the Oblivion Goty because they didn't make sense getting messages out of thin air escaping prison.



Bloodmoon is mentioned several times in Oblivion which makes it cannon.



Yeah that would be a hard argument to make considerig the original version of Oblivion for the PS3 had that on it.



Considering there track record and the fact that it's on the final version of the game how would it not be deemed official cannon? If it gets mentioned or not in future games remains to be seen considering how we don't even know if there working on Fallout 4 yet.

Why is this even a debate? If it's official it's 100% canon as long as "Tactics" and "Brotherhood of Steel" aren't in the title.

Expansion is usually canon that were included into the lores, as so with the event of Bloodmoon and Tribunal. Many of the DLC for Oblivion and Offical Mods for Morrowind are just pale in comparison. They are just extra for entertainment.


Indeed. Its is an expansion, after all.


Not every adventurers are high, light, and mighty like they presented in that addon. Its semi to non canon as that DLC is fit more to a knight / paladin player then everyone else. In other words, if, per say, they happen to mention the hero's action in TES V, I do not want to hear that his/her action involve "those" type of heroes. Its fit more that the hero's action is more anonymous and did the main mission only.

Oh and thanks for the clarification, DaedraAnt.