This time through, I'm considering conversing with Col. Autumn and allowing him to walk away. If so, will it change the storyline...?

It won't change the story in any way, but Elder Lyons during the "two weeks later" transitions confirms that he survives, against what Sarah says as she is confident Autumn will try to exit through the front door (and thus walk straight into Lyons Pride).



Do a service to all mankind and let the man walk :nod:
Autumn was trying to help the Wastelanders just like the Brotherood. Sparing Autumn gives the rare opportunity of hearing his version of the story. He is surprisingly duty-driven and well intentioned.

Autumn murdered an innocent http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Janice_Kaplinski in cold blood for no other reason then to intimidate James into doing what he wanted. He'll also execute people who've out lived their usefulness. Do mankind a service and blow his head off. He wanted the purifier to subjugate people to the will of the Enclave.

Shooting one woman is hardly out of the ordinary in the Wasteland. By that logic the player himself should be put on the rope because at the very beginning he massacres up to dozens of Vault security personnel who are just doing their jobs.

And to "subjugate people to the will of the Enclave"... How is that a bad thing? The same applies to the Brotherhood. The difference just is that the BoS doesn't have the firepower to do anything useful with the purifier.. They just hire mercs to take the water to remote locations and don't care if they get whacked and robbed on the way. The Enclave could easily transport all the water with Vertibirds, and caravans would be well guarded. And as Autumn says, "The masses will flock to the Enclave for fresh water, protection and a plan for the future! [...] The American people are worth fighting for. I won't let you stand in the way of that!"

Are we really doing the morality argument in this topic? Because if so... :biggrin:

First of all, consider the Enclave perspective on humanity. There are the "real" humans and the "genetically impure" humans are sub-humans that should be put down. If this doesn't make you think of certain low-points of human history, you slept through history class. On top of those clear and unpleasant similarities, there's also the sad fact that the Enclave are basing everything they do on a point of view that science has shown to be complete rubbish. Mutations are part of what made us human. Without mutations there'd be no evolution, without evolution there'd be no humanity. Trying to fight against mutation is to fight against the very thing that caused us to exist. What is the sense in that?

Based on the above, we can conclude that the Enclave have a completely ass-backwards perception of reality, which goes a long way in explaining why they're acting the way they are.


And this would be nice if his story wasn't a load of hot air and empty rhetoric. The Enclave has never cared to help any other part of humanity than those who are already citizens of the Enclave. Everybody else are at best pure strain humans to be used for lab research and at worst sub-humans. When Autumn talks about helping wastelanders, what he means is enslaving them until such a point in time where the Enclave can be bothered to kill them all, as the worthless mutated sub-humans the Enclave believes all wastelanders to be. Unless you believe slavery beats freedom, there's no "help" for the wastelanders in the sick dream Autumn tries to force onto them.

By the way, also don't forget what kind of a lying sack of filth Autumn is, trying to take over other people's inventions and present them as if the Enclave had ever bothered to invest ten minutes, much less years of work, in doing anything helpful for wastelanders. If Autumn actually wanted to help with clean water, he'd have done the research and built the freaking thing himself. He doesn't. He wants to leech off of wastelander progress, sneak in before anyone knows what's happening, and enslave everybody. That's how "nice" he is.


How is slavery and having absolutely no human rights a bad thing? Really? I thought you pro-Enclave people always touted the Enclave as the post-war incarnation of the official United States. I suppose Martin Luther didn't have a dream in the FO-verse, but the civil war presumably still happened, with all it entails.

And no, the same doesn't apply to the Brotherhood, at least not Lyon's chapter. While they're still elitist dikes, they're doing their part to keep the mutant population down. That's helpful. They're also giving away the cleaned water, free of charge. They could do more but at least they're doing something. What is the Enclave doing, other than constantly killing wastelanders and making genocidal schemes to "fix" the problematic wild-life that they played a key role in creating? Oh wait, I forgot. Autumn is trying to take credit for work the Enclave never did. Surely that counts as helping the wastelanders, right?


So why isn't the Enclave offering to assist the BoS in distributing the water through vertibirds? Why try to take something that didn't belong to the Enclave anyway? This is where you're going to try your tired old spiel about how the memorial belongs to the US government and how the Enclave is the US government and thus own all of the US. That's crap and you know it.

The memorial is heavily infested with muties, indicating that the Enclave have given up all claims of property rights, just like the Israelis did when they left Great Israel way back in the day. You can't come back centuries later and make a claim. Unless you're trying to do it through force of arms, in which case the legal and historical validity of your claim is irrelevant anyway. Furthermore, the US was a constitutional democracy and the Enclave sure isn't, at least not from a wastelander perspective, since wastelanders don't get voting rights. Heck, they don't get any rights whatsoever.

There's the further problem that the Enclave officially, regardless of any spiel Autumn could try to play, do not consider wastelanders full humans. Call them near-humans, call them genetically impure, but the key is that they're considered sub-humans and thus no more relevant or important than your average hamster or dog. Do you really want to give up all claims to be a human in order to be an Enclave pet? Do you REALLY? Pardon me if I doubt it.


This is a good argument to make. And it's really, really great rhetoric on Autumn's part. That guy should've become a politician. He's got the complete lack of morality and the forked tongue for it.

What is the problem in the above? Problem is that "the masses" who will flock to the Enclave for fresh water are not actually the same as the "American people" that he wants to fight for, at least not unless he's gone as rogue from Enclave ideology as Lyons BoS have from the original BoS ideology. The masses that flock to Autumn's clean water will certainly get protection (while they're in their slave pits) and they'll get a plan for the future, but what plan? If Autumn cared about the future of the wastelanders then surely he'd do more to hunt down muties and mutated animals and less to interrupt the wasteland's best hope for clean water. Surely his troops would protect wastelanders rather than attack them on sight, as if they're animals needing to be hunted to extinction.

The conclusion has to be that Autumn isn't actually fighting for the Wastelander masses but rather for the "Enclave Americans", and that his plan for the purifier is really just to use it as a honey trap to lure the wastelanders in, so he can put them to use without having to hunt them down and capturing them a handful at the time.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part in the evolutionary process where mutation-induced sterility and possible birth defects are a good thing. The type of mutations which are caused by FEV and radiation are not the type of ones which facilitate the process of evolution.

Besides that logic is flawed regardless. The Enclave's mission is to preserve humanity, not a future "evolved from humans" species.

The Enclave's firm belief is that they are protecting the last remnants of the human race. dike Richardson so fervently believed this that he was willing to martyr himself to see it completed.




Nice that you put words in Autumn's mouth. I'm a firm supporter of Eden, but Autumn never elaborated on his plan at all other than that he was going to protect the wastelanders and distribute water. Truthfully, given Autumn's willingness and desire to fight to the death over the matter of the purifier, I don't doubt his intentions. I do doubt whether it would truly benefit the Enclave itself however.



Funny. I recall the Brotherhood of Steel taking over operation of the purifier and doing something very similar. I could honestly care less who has "rights" to the purifier. It isn't the Enclave, but it isn't the Brotherhood's right either. As far as Autumn and Eden were concerned, the occupation of the purifer was a hostile takeover, a preempitive strike in a time of war, I don't pretend it was anything less.

Autumn knows it to be true as well, he "captures" the purifier, and declares that it is now the property of the United States by force of arms.



In the Fallout world yes. Mariposa Military Base ring a bell? How about the Yangtze concentration camps?

Also, once again you have zero proof that Autumn would do any of these thing. Thus your argument is invalidated. "Subjugate" does not mean "slavery with no rights".



Haven't found Vault 87 yet have they? And downtown DC is still invested as far as I can tell.



A poor job they're doing at that. Letting relatively unarmed caravans get raided and shooting up citizens of Megaton (scripted event).



What is the Enclave doing for the wastelanders before Autumn? Nothing.
Does that matter? No. Do I care? No.

How about this. What has the Enclave done for the Enclave, the only entity they see as being able to preserve humanity? Everything they can.



If you really think the BoS would just agree to that you have quite a bit to learn about the Brotherhood. It isn't just the Enclave that's preventing some sort of "joint" effort.



When did this happen? I don't recall anyone really making that argument (aside as an off-hand joke) in the entire time I've been on this forum.We've pretty much always recognized it as a hostile takeover.

Words in our mouth again?

The Enclave is however, the legimate government of the United States via COG plans. I'd rather not go into a full argument on this point, but if you press the matter, I think you'll find we're more than capable of giving a solid water-proof argument for our ideas.

The Enclave recognizes that the United States has been reduced to only them, the area beyond what the Enclave control's isn't United States soil anymore. This includes the purifier/Jefferson Memorial. The fact that they used to own it though, gives a pretty good casus belli.




Could be. If he decided to put his own people before that of wastelanders, I'd certainly view him in a better light.

Like I said, I'm Edenist. My only concern is the protection of the Enclave as a people, the wastelanders really don't concern me. Harsh? Yes, of course it is.

:facepalm: Yeah, the Enclave wants everyone in the world to have the same DNA.



No one ever claimed that the Enclave were rational, not even us; based on the above however we can assume that you are a strawman.



That doesn't even begin to make a lick of sense, he opposed Eden's killing plan. Autumn's plan is to use the Purifier as leverage to get the people to rally around the Enclave. Yeah they will be used as cheap labour most likely, but that also implies that they are actually building something and the Enclave already has everything it needs so what do you suggest? Enclave control offered the wastelanders food, water, shelter and security from the wasteland; try preaching to the scavengers living off radroaches in the sewers.



Autumn is a military leader, he has no authority over civilian scientists or even research in general, that's why the President is in-charge. Think next time.



See above, believe it or not Government's do bad things in both peace time and war time. In a post-nuclear environment tough measures are taken on by all.



Rebelling against his leader in an attempt to secure the Purifier, also he tried his hardest to talk Eden out of the virus plan and then still betrayed him. What is your arguement again?



Not really, in-fact a rather [censored] arguement on your part. It's called Continuity of Government, you see when there's going to be a nuclear war the first thing governments consider is their legitimacy afterwards, the fact that the Enclave didn't just fly in and kill all the muties doesn't make the Jefferson Memorial suddenly not Federal Property.

And what are you talking about, the Enclave have elected President's, as for the wastelanders they aren't citizens of the United States or at least not considered as such by the Enclave.



Pardon me but your a guy sat behind a computer in the 21st Century, again, I don't think that your fully empathising with the un-educated wastelander eating radroaches in a sewer.

This is a good argument to make. And it's really, really great rhetoric on Autumn's part. That guy should've become a politician. He's got the complete lack of morality and the forked tongue for it.



Do you have some repeated problem with grasping on how the American government works? Eden is Autumn's boss, and Autumn eventually showed his opposition to his orders.



I can't believe I wasted my time on this when your summary can be refuted now:

Autumn tried to kill President Eden because he objected to the virus plan!

What does he want them to build?

He decided to attack so me and Fawkes destroyed him.
Of course despite being decapitated, Lyons still said that I let him go in the transition, rather weird.
Meh good riddance, a man like him was a danger to the wasteland, We did the right thing by killing him, he can harm no one anymore.

No, they just want to exterminate all those with "unclean" genes. Or do you have some other explanation all of a sudden as to why the wastelanders don't qualify as citizens of the US of A? Simply because they are humans with the rotten luck of being born outside the Enclave? So why the extermination policy? Why are Enclave troopers shooting them on sight?


If they're not rational then what's the bloody purpose of supporting them? Why trust them to do anything right? Why are you a fan of irrational people? Please, do share.


Cheap labour? Are you kidding me? They'll be slave labour, working themselves to death for scraps from the Enclave table, while still having no rights. Yes, Autumn opposed Eden's plan but that doesn't mean Autumn is a hero who gives a flying toss about the wastelanders, it just means he's opposed to wasting perfectly good labour when he thinks it's possible to secure it with relatively little effort. What was he planning to build? Who knows? But my guess is that he'd like to rebuild the wasteland to pre-war conditions, which is going to take a fair bit of time and a whole lot of labour.


Oh please. The moment Autumn doesn't like what Eden's doing, he takes over. And you're trying to sell that Autumn has sod all authority? And THEN you're telling me to think? That's bloody rich. Of course Autumn could have gotten the research done and of course he could've gotten the project built. It's not like the Enclave wouldn't need clean water in the wasteland at some point anyway, may as well be done sooner rather than later. And if he's bossing all the troops around, to the point where people don't just laugh at him and shoot him as a traitor when he rebels on Eden, then you can be very freaking sure he's got the influence to both get research done and get wasteland based built. Let's try to not kid ourselves here.


Rebelling against his leader because his leader is for some completely insane reason trusting a wastelander, completely contrary to all common Enclave sense. Have you tried just giving Autumn the code? You remember what happens in that case? Care to explain why that is, rather than simple confinement? No?

Fact is, Autumn doesn't give a toss about the average wastelander, he cares about the Enclave citizens getting "their" country back and to hell with what happens to the current inhabitants. And if you think that's an okay approach (it's essentially what Americans did to the natives back in the day) then that's perfectly fine. I can't force you to give a rat's ass about human lives. Just don't pretend that you're not siding with the villain and don't pretend that the villain had good intentions for the people being displaced.


Of course it does. If you disappear off the face of the planet for two centuries, you can't expect anyone to still recognize your old property rights. After the war, as far as any wastelander is concerned, the US ceased to exist. That's all. For two centuries, that's how it has been, except to those few wastelanders so unfortunate as to actually encounter the people claiming to be the US government. Who were of course either used for experiments or killed.

The simple truth is, if you know someone is violating your property rights and you do nothing for 200 years, not even write a formal letter of complaint or anything, then I'm fairly sure there isn't a court in the US that would uphold your property rights. You'd lose your rights by inaction. If you can't be bothered to actually react on an infringement within a given amount of time, you lose the right to complain about the infringement. More so if the people infringing on your rights had no way of knowing that they were doing so.

Obviously all this assumes a legal issue between citizens, which by your own admission isn't the case here. Wastelanders aren't citizens in the US, despite being born on what the Enclave claims is US soil, which means we're essentially talking about an animal infestation, legally speaking. So, from an Enclave perspective, the right thing to do is to clear out the infestation. Which is by and large exactly what the Enclave and Autumn does. No lawsuit, no cease and desist, no warning at all. Just straight out extermination, which is evidence supporting the concept that Autumn doesn't think wastelanders have rights whatsoever. He's willing to treat them like intelligent monkeys, but hardly more than that.


That's my darn point. How can you even suggest that the Enclave is their government when the Enclave doesn't recognize them as citizens, despite them being born on what the Enclave considers US soil? Did something suddenly change so people born in America aren't Americans anymore? Heck, the Enclave doesn't even recognize wastelanders as actual humans. How could the Enclave possibly be their legit government? How could they possibly recognize the Enclave as legit? Unless you're trying to tell me that wastelanders should just accept being sub-humans and embrace a life of enslavement and having absolutely no rights.


Pardon me, but the Enclave are a bunch of lazy dikes who have walked around in their power armor and screwed people over as they see fit for TWO HUNDRED YEARS. They've done ABSOLUTE NOTHING for the wastelanders or any other non-Enclave citizens in all that time. N O T H I N G !

You're saying I'm a guy sitting behind a computer in the 21st century? True. I'm also someone being told stories by my family members about how funny it was when the Germans invaded. And with funny I obviously mean not very funny at all. How about you? What the hell have you ever endured for freedom? You're telling me that enslavement is worth food scraps and the security offered by internment camps? Boy, should you try talking to a guy named Ben Franklin. Me, I'd die to maintain my freedom if it came to that. How about you? Are you a slave, a slave taker, or someone who actually cares about freedom? Or are you the supremacist kind who would happily enslave millions to live a life of luxury?

That said, I'm skipping the rest since I've covered it already.

I'm sorry for leaving out a few things, but there seems to be a quote limit and this discussion is complex enough without contextual confusion sneaking in.


Who created the FEV to begin with? And regarding the supposed sterility and birth defects, I didn't see a whole lot of that in FO3. Did you? Yeah, real world science suggests that this should happen but FO-verse science is a tiny bit different, what with nobody dying from cancer after being hit with radiation and whatnot.

And unless you're arguing, like the Enclave, that all wastelanders aren't actually humans (because they've been exposed to radiation), the above argument is bunk. If you want to argue the Enclave's case here, you're effectively suggesting that wastelanders are really just intelligent monkeys. That argument has actually been used before, to describe a fairly large segment of the American population. The argument was crap then and it's crap now.


Given that Autumn at not point showed any concern with wastelander lives, I doubt that he'd fight to the death simply to bring them clean water in a more steady fashion than what the BoS could manage. Obivously he had an Enclave angle and obviously that angle didn't include anything remotely good for the wastelanders.

And a time of war, you say? Against whom? The BoS? The BoS weren't actually doing much at the purifier until the Enclave showed up. Who else? Mere survival? The Enclave has survived for 200 years and nobody would want to exterminate them if they weren't constantly so damned busy killing everybody who aren't Enclave.


Subjugate means to "bring under domination or control, esp. by conquest", according to dictionary.com. You want to tell me how being dominated by a faction that considers itself in a war against you and which doesn't even recognize you as a human being, could possibly constitute anything but complete and utter slavery or offer you any rights? What part of Enclave history gives you the idea that Autumn would suddenly offer wastelanders any rights? Or do you think Autumn wasn't really an Enclaver because he wanted to use a bit of finesse in rebuilding the wasteland, rather than the usual brute force?


Obviously you don't. Wastelanders aren't humans because they've suffered radiation. I think that's a bad argument, even with the funny science in the FO-verse. As a consequence of not considering wastelanders humans, you think it's okay to kill them all, if they won't go away by themselves. And you somehow can't see the resemblance such an argument has with the crazy nonsense pretty much any genocidal dike in human history has spewed? No offense, but I'm not sure I believe that.


It's going to be slow if I have to trail through old forum posts, so suffice it to say that I could swear having seen, on more than one occation, the memorial being considered property of the US government and thus the Enclave, which means the science team "obviously" trespassed.


I see two problems with that argument. One, the Enclave is only the legitimate government on US territory and if that doesn't include the wasteland then how are the Enclave the legitimate government of the wasteland? Obviously they're not. Consequently the country formerly known as the US of A is gone, which makes it irrelevant whether the Enclave is actually legit or not. Who cares about the legit government of a country that doesn't exist anymore?

Two, it becomes problematic when you take away the constitutional democratic rights of people without due process. You'd need a constitutional definition of what is and isn't a human and you can't do that without actually ammending the constitution. Unfortunatelly you can't ammend the constitution because the constitution itself defines the procedure for that and it does not include any COG exceptions. Thus, with no way of actually getting the states, which are now reduced to rubble, to provide approval of ammendments, the Enclave can't ammend the constitution and redefine what is constitutionally considered a human being.

By the way, a COG rests exclusively on the executive authority by the president. It is not law approved in the congress. Anything that the president doesn't have executive authority to do can also not be done in a COG. Furthermore, it would be the duty of any later president to preserve, protect, and defend the constitution. That means not doing anything that is clearly unconstitutional, particularly not based solely on a former president's executive authority.


See, I don't think that's entirely true. If the Enclave only "used to own" an area then they've got no rights to go to war over someone else using it. You also don't have the right to shoot someone who drives around in a car you "used to own". If the Enclave doesn't actually lay claim to all of the US, using their "inheritors of the US government" status as justification, then we're talking simple imperialism. Some people made something nice and now the Enclave wants it. That's plain theft, except at state level. No different from Saddam invading Kuwait for the oil, or Europeans messing around in Africa for gold, diamonds, and ivory.


Funny thing is that we seem to agree quite a lot on what the Enclave stands for. Only major difference is, you're willing to kill human beings, at worst intelligent humanoid life, with total abandon. Is that sort of genocide what you stand for? If yes, do you really think your species is worth protecting?

EDIT: Having an issue with the quote tags, the quoted stuff is in bold/underline.


Or do you have some other explanation all of a sudden as to why the wastelanders don't qualify as citizens of the US of A?

Yeah. They were born outside of the United States (no, just because they were born on former U.S. territory doesn't mean they are citizens).

They've been seperated from the U.S. and its government for 200 years. They aren't U.S. citizens nor would they consider themselves as such.


Cheap labour? Are you kidding me? They'll be slave labour

You base this on what evidence?


Oh please. The moment Autumn doesn't like what Eden's doing, he takes over.

Not really. He doesn't take over. Autumn still recognizes Eden's authority over him and firmly believes Eden is the president.

Of course Autumn could have gotten the research done and of course he could've gotten the project built. It's not like the Enclave wouldn't need clean water in the wasteland at some point anyway, may as well be done sooner rather than later. [quote]And if he's bossing all the troops around, to the point where people don't just laugh at him and shoot him as a traitor when he rebels on Eden, then you can be very freaking sure he's got the influence to both get research done and get wasteland based built. Let's try to not kid ourselves here.

You assume Fallout 3's storyline makes sense. That's a mistake right there.

I for one, also don't understand why the Enclave can't just replicate Jame's work, or the Brotherhood for that matter. But apparently, James did something that was a one of a kind, can't-replicate sort of deal. He's just that special I guess.

Eden confirms it, the Brotherhood confirms it, Autumn confirms it, and Dr. Li confirms it.

Rebelling against his leader because his leader is for some completely insane reason trusting a wastelander

Not insane at all really. Eden is attempting to get the LW (an extremely capable individual) on the Enclave's side. In fact, its only with the LW's help that the Enclave can pull a victory out of the CW. Had Autumn not gone awol at that point, the LW likely would have been conducted safely to Eden's office and then out of Raven Rock.

They don't like him because he has shot at them and likely killed some of their number (this goes for the common soldierly).

You remember what happens in that case? Care to explain why that is, rather than simple confinement? No?

He didn't need him any more and Autumn felt he was too dangerous to be left alive. From Autumn's standpoint, it was an excellent call.

Just don't pretend that you're not siding with the villain and don't pretend that the villain had good intentions for the people being displaced.

Oh we know they aren't good people. Don't get that confused.

Doesn't mean that they don't have the best course of action for the wastes however, in terms of restoring the pre-war United States.


Of course it does. If you disappear off the face of the planet for two centuries, you can't expect anyone to still recognize your old property rights.

They don't either. The Enclave sees the wasteland as a "re-conquest".


The simple truth is, if you know someone is violating your property rights and you do nothing for 200 years, not even write a formal letter of complaint or anything, then I'm fairly sure there isn't a court in the US that would uphold your property rights. You'd lose your rights by inaction. If you can't be bothered to actually react on an infringement within a given amount of time, you lose the right to complain about the infringement. More so if the people infringing on your rights had no way of knowing that they were doing so.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. They've lost control of the wasteland, true, doesn't mean they don't reserve a right to try and take it back (same as the NCR reserving a right to expand their nation, its what all nations do).

Obviously all this assumes a legal issue between citizens, which by your own admission isn't the case here.

Glad we're in agreement.

Wastelanders aren't citizens of the U.S., and the only exist on former U.S. territory.


That's my darn point. How can you even suggest that the Enclave is their government when the Enclave doesn't recognize them as citizens, despite them being born on what the Enclave considers US soil?

The Enclave doesn't' consider it U.S. soil anymore. They consider it former U.S. territory that needs to be retaken. In Fallout 2, the Enclave refer to wastelanders as foreigner's basically.

Did something suddenly change so people born in America aren't Americans anymore?

Yeah. It was called the Great War.

When that happened, and the U.S. government lost the mainland to anarchy, the United States lost control of North America. Ergo, people born there after this point are now longer citizens of the U.S.

Heck, the Enclave doesn't even recognize wastelanders as actual humans. How could the Enclave possibly be their legit government? How could they possibly recognize the Enclave as legit? Unless you're trying to tell me that wastelanders should just accept being sub-humans and embrace a life of enslavement and having absolutely no rights.

They are the United State's legitimate government. The wastelanders are not their government because the wastelanders aren't Americans.


Pardon me, but the Enclave are a bunch of lazy dikes who have walked around in their power armor and screwed people over as they see fit for TWO HUNDRED YEARS. They've done ABSOLUTE NOTHING for the wastelanders or any other non-Enclave citizens in all that time. N O T H I N G !

Who says they have to go out of their way to help people they want to eradicate?

They've done plenty for themselves.

You're telling me that enslavement is worth food scraps and the security offered by internment camps?

If that was indeed Autumn's plan, then it would probably beat wasteland life that's for sure.

But again, that wasn't really Autumn's plan, at all.

Who created the FEV to begin with? And regarding the supposed sterility and birth defects, I didn't see a whole lot of that in FO3. Did you? Yeah, real world science suggests that this should happen but FO-verse science is a tiny bit different, what with nobody dying from cancer after being hit with radiation and whatnot.

Did you play the originals? You know with all the little people and problem areas like Vault City (which is suffering from birth defect issues)?

No, they don't die from Cancer, they just mutate into something that isn't human (like ghouls).

And unless you're arguing, like the Enclave, that all wastelanders aren't actually humans (because they've been exposed to radiation), the above argument is bunk.

Technically they aren't. If they're DNA has been altered to the point that they are distinguishable from humans, then they are no longer fully human.

If you want to argue the Enclave's case here, you're effectively suggesting that wastelanders are really just intelligent monkeys. That argument has actually been used before, to describe a fairly large segment of the American population. The argument was crap then and it's crap now.

Let's stray away from any real world examples shall we?


Given that Autumn at not point showed any concern with wastelander lives

"Soon the people of the wasteland will flock to the Enclave for clean water, protection, and a plan for the future"-Colonel Augustus Autumn at the Purifer

Now what were you saying?

And a time of war, you say?

Speaking metaphorically, they are "at war" with the wasteland. In any case, it was a hostile takeover, a military action, I recognize that.




Autumn appears to view them as humans and even American citizens. Eden does not.

Thus, Autumn's plan does not necessarily end in slavery, because frankly, there is no indication from Autumn that it would.




I'd say its clear Autumn deviated significantly from previous Enclave agenda.




I recall it being said once, by myself actually. The context of which was a joke.

I believe I ended it with "well, it does give them a good casus belli". Meaning, they used to control it, and now they want it back.




Of the wasteland? No.

Of the United States? Yes.



The Government survived as the Enclave. Just because the mainland was devastated doesn't mean that the country is just "done" and over with now. Its a similar situation with what would happen in the event of an actual Nuclear War, the government would continue on via Continuity of Government protocols.




Not true. COG allows for conditions to give the President of the United States emergency powers in the event of a national catastrophe. Reagan's COG plan involved not re-constituting Congress and doing away with legal rules of succession.

COG however, is still considered a legitimate way for the Government to continue operations in the event of a catastrophe, despite that it doesn't need to be approved by Congress and in fact is often classified from them.





Conquest and reconquest is basically theft, yes. Theft in the form of large-scale military operations.

NCR does it, the Brotherhood does it, House does it, and nearly every other faction that has expanded does it. Why should the Enclave operate differently?




Since when is it just about killing near-humans? Do you think the Enclave does it just because they feel like it? Its because once the chaos of the mainland is tamed, the process of rebuilding can begin. First and foremost, the Enclave stands for humanities preservation and the preservation of the United States, second, they stand for the reconstruction of the nation.

I escaped from the Vault without killing anyone thank you very much, despite the justification of self defense. I went for the leg so they simply couldn't follow me. Autumn murders Janice Kaplinski in cold blood for no other reason then to intimidate James into doing his bidding.
So how does cold blooded murder and terrorism compare to self-defense?
And if your dumb enough to give him the code to the purifier while your held prisoner he kills you to. If Autumn was in it for the good of the people when he showed up at the Purifier he would have offered his assistance instead of demanding obdienace.

So I repeat my previous statement of do humanity a favor and blow his head off.


How does it apply to the brotherhood? While Elder Lyon's had dedicated his chapter to protecting Capital Wasteland he's never made one step to controlling its people. Autumn wants the purifer to people will flock to the Enclave for him its a means to power. Lyon's is dedicated to carrying on the purifers original intent, fresh clean water for everyone for nothing.


Welcome to science fiction, hell science in general. They can't duplicate Jame's work first off because project purity was abandoned because it didn't work. It was only after learning about the GECK that James figured out it might be possible to finish it after all. So there was no work to duplicate until 2277. If someone makes a huge scientific breakthrough you need to see their work to duplicate it. Otherwise it could take decades.
There was no work to duplicate until James figured out how to finish it in 2277. You don't try and duplicate something that was non-functional.

When the Enclave does show up, James sabaotages the controls so the Enclave can't turn it on. Which is why Autumn wants the purifier code from you. They were able to install the proper parts from the GECK to finish it.

Too much text to respond to everything on my behalf (that's what I get for being European...) but I would respond to the good Lieutenant's point that Autumn's work is assisting the Wastelanders for sure, but not necessarily the Enclave. The way I see it it's the same thing - the Enclave isn't just about genetics. It's about United States and Autumn believes the United States still exists as a single entity and is willing to give the near-humans a chance. Based on findings in Enclave camps Enclave troops are ordered to destroy Ghouls and Super Mutants, but give water to the near-humans. Soldiers scan their genes but the criteria of human has loosened up a bit as Autumn, who has probably seen more Wasteland than all other surviving Enclave combined, knows that ruling over a mass graveyard will result in a sloppy start for the new United States of America. Afterall, that's what the Enclave was originally supposed to do. The genocide plans came not until late 22nd century.

Here's what I don't understand:

Large scale purification methods already existed in the west before the events of Fallout 3 (ex: NCR). The Enclave apparently has water-purification systems in Raven Rock and had very large scale ones on the Oil Rig for sure. The BOS has probably seen and worked on their fair share of them in BOS bunkers back west as well.

So why is the technology suddenly so mysterious and so closely guarded in the east?

Thus the argument of "can't duplicate work that doesn't exist yet" is completely invalid.

Plot device. These are the moments when we must remind ourselves that this is just game and we have to play along, we like it or not.

I guess that's my point.

Spider wanted to know why the Enclave didn't make up their own purifier. The reason is because there is a convenient plot device which makes it so they can't.

Well for me honestly, the Enclave just seemed like they were clinging on a broken illusion that they still own America, I honestly have no idea why they don't consider wastelanders Americans, due to the fact that the wastelanders ancestors were American (Unless they somehow got to the wasteland after the great war)

:shrug: You kill all the wastelanders and what do you have left? A pretty dead wasteland, which will result in the Enclave inbreeding to keep the "pure" human strain left.
But of course they come 200 years later pretty much telling all those people that worked hard to survive "You don't belong in my land."
Meh Bigots are bigots no matter how you put it, and I myself hate bigots. The Enclave will go extinct by the time I'm done with them. :toughninja:

Edit; Pardon any major grammar errors, I'm a tad sleepy :ahhh: