How do you not "miss out on any important combat perks" by taking lockpicking or hacking? You are, by definition, skipping another perk that could help you get through an area that much more. And whats perk gating? lol

A stealth build would not be optimal simply because stealth is not as useful in this game. In TES? sure dodge arrows, spells, boulders, whatever. In this? Guess what you are taking those shots to the face because they travel faster than your eye can see them. Not saying stealth isnt a build that wont work but its certainly not optimal in this game. Just like a melee build, sure it can be done but your gonna have a lot harder of a time than just playing it like a normal wasteland survivor guns and all.

Do you plan to rely fully on getting mods from guns you pick up though? What if that doesnt happen? It didnt happen on one of my playthroughs. So now you dont have any mod perks to up your guns but you instead have lockpicking to go get more ammo for said gun or some collectible that has little bearing on your situation?

Also the power armor is not necessary, therefore needing lockpicking/hacking for fusion cores isnt part of the discussion either.

Or its just a different way to play the game? Besides this isnt about beating it as quick as possible, its about beating it without it being an unbearable struggle for those finding it tough on survival.

When you break down the perks in terms of numbers, statistics, and optimizing gameplay- you really demean the game and make it more like homework. You guys play however you want but my opinion on this thread is, you pick what perks make sense for your character and if you have general common sense you won't gimp yourself without demeaning the game. Looking to mark some perks as bad and others as necessary is just ugly. Why even play the game?

Agreed, but lockpicking and hacking arent gonna help that guy that isnt performing in combat as well to get through the zones. Thats the kind of person im here to help. Ok cool you can get through the early game with lockpicking and hacking because you are well off enough without a combat perk or two. Chances are thats not gonna be the case with the average person struggling on survival.

I partially disagree about the damage resistance perk (I can't remember it's name) being useless early on. Not everyone likes wearing the armor pieces for aesthetic reasons and in those cases the perk really helps. And as difficulty varies person to person, some might find the extra DR useful even with armor pieces. And on the other hand if you're not gonna pick armorer early, the DR perk is a good substitute.

You didn't notice the level requirements for different levels of perks? The perks are level gated, so you can get lock picking AND combat related perks early on. You can avoid getting hit by never being seen with stealth and you don't need to be good at FPS games to use stealth either since it's more about strategy and exploiting the AI. If you're trying to dodge with stealth, you're not doing it right. You can sell power armor to get powerful gear from traders too, which is what I was actually getting at with the part about power armor since it sells for a lot. And yes, power armor is not necessary, but it's really powerful, isn't it? You're trying to go for "optimal" right? Why not go for the "optimal" armor? You can sneak in it too, if you really want to avoid death.

Right, but what does "general common sense" mean to you and what does it mean to the person next to you? Im doing this because I love doing this with games, dont tell me how to enjoy the game, I dont tell you.

Heres an example, one of my friends isnt as good at FPSs but he decided to pick up hacking/lockpicking perks early on for the same reason many people did. He had such a tough time with the game on survival in the early levels (5-15) and he couldnt get through a few of the zones. Hes one of those people that wont lower a difficulty so hes pissed because he wouldnt have got those knowing he could have opened all that later on. Instead of lowering the difficulty hes going to start the game over.

Another example, someone else ended up getting both lifegiver and armorer early on in the game. By the time he as level 30 he ended up having hundreds upon hundreds of stimpaks. He doesnt want to play anymore because hes upset he essentially wasted perks, so now hes going to start a new character and wish he knew this when he started.

Thats my whole point in this thread, so these people know these things and dont experience that later on, more of a PSA than anything else.

Ah...i re-read your original post. You are looking at early game foundation. Thanks for the thoughts.

Everything how your mindset operates I disagree with. If you build a [censored] character, you simply pick up the pieces or remake a new character. My first character got to level 17 before I decided I could have taken a different more efficient path for my character I had in mind, so I restarted after investing 22hours into my original guy. My first guy wasn't weak, he kicked ass, but he wasn't what I had in mind and I made mistakes simply by not understanding the game fully since its brand new. Trial and error.

If you built a character that doesn't have many combat perks then you would be wise to play on Normal difficulty in order to accommodate your characters identity. Playing a smooth charismatic character with no agility might prove problematic in combat, however that's the character you had in mind and realistically that character wouldn't kick much ass in combat- he would find ways around it that make sense for his identity such as companions, luck, power armor, and all kinds of other options/variables. The difficulty meter isn't an [censored] test, it's a throttle to be increased or decreased depending on the situation.

Ya there are level requirements but even with those you can balance a way more useful build out than one that includes lock picking or hacking. Theres lots of combat enhancing perks to choose plus whatever points you want to actually put into your chosen build. The fact of the matter is lockpicking/hacking is not part of any optimized build. Seriously I wouldnt be saying this if you couldnt get companions to do all of it for you because then you would be getting items you couldnt get otherwise WITH the small benefit of experience from lockpicking/hacking. In reality now you are only getting that small benefit experience, which there are much better perks to choose from in the first three levels of all the trees.

The thing about stealth is you can pretty much use it any time without perks associated. As long as your smart about the way to approach a room. So then why put perk points into it if you might as well have the ability to make more useful guns or more useful armor which actually has a tangible increase in progression associated with it.

Why do you need to sell power armor though? If you got one of the three collector perks like I said you have more than enough money to buy your necessary ammo. I did mention the legendary gear/weapons you can buy from vendors in my original post. Yes it can be very good but its really not necessary until later on. You will be getting so many legendaries off mobs to replace that stuff its not gonna matter. Sure theres a few across the game that are better than anything lootable, but why the hell would you farm the caps for that in the first 20 levels? Just go out play the game at that time, you will get better gear.

I say power armor is not optimal because it would require you to get the lockpicking/hacking perks because most of the fusion cores are behind gates. Power armor is way overkill. If you need to go out and farm fusion cores to get through the game thats obviously not optimal. All you need outside your power armor are the mod perks and you will get through the early game. Even on survival.

Like I said in the original post, everything ive posted has playing survival from the start in mind, and not changing it throughout the play through. If thats not something you care to do than its fine but im trying to give information to those who are.

You may not mind starting your guy over after 20 hours in but ive seen people quit games when that happens. In the perfect world sure everyone would see it as a fun trial and error.

Im not talking about roleplaying or "playing the game how I want to play it," I mean sitting down and wanting to get the game done. And please dont say something like "games are for fun." This playstyle is fun for me and those ive helped in the past.

Sure but people who are not wearing armor for "aesthetic reasons" are not the ones im trying to help here lol. Im talking people who sit down and realize this is a video game and want to get it done on the hardest difficulty without changing it. I suppose that sort of defeats your "different people, different difficulties" point. This is survival only and the fact is the defense base from mods are more useful than the defense increase from DR.

I'm not really sure what you wanted out of this thread since it doesn't seem like you even know what you want. You say imply that there's always a right way to play the game and then in the next sentence say that there's no right way, but always an optimal way. By excluding the perks that you excluded, you kind of made up your own definition of optimal, because in a game like Fallout 4, there is no clearly defined optimal way to play. Also, the first thing Bethesda probably thought of was that they wanted to make a game that suited everyone no matter how they wanted to play. The creators of these games you mention just want you to play the game in a way that's fun for you. They're not bogged down by all the intricacies of all the possible combinations and order that you can do things in. And when you play a Final Fantasy game, sure there are better build paths to take (depending on the FF game), but FF has the same thing as Fallout 4: it ultimately isn't difficult enough to think about these things too hard. The time when it does matter is when you do FF playthroughs with artificially created playthroughs like beating the game with the lowest level possible.

When thinking about an optimal game, there's several ways to look at it. I skimmed through the thread, but from what I saw, like I said earlier, you never clearly defined what you wanted. You want to know an optimal build in what sense? "Beating survival without it being an unbearable struggle" is also extremely subjective. Like you said, it'll be harder for some than it is for others. I don't see much point in fully investing in survival mode since it does not take that long to stabilize. When you finally stabilize, stuff like caps is important for a lot of different reasons. Losing out on those caps early on in my viewpoint is a waste. This is perhaps a bad example because of course I wouldn't invest in it immediately. But you're not going to be fully investing that many points anyways for survival besides into things like riflemen, armorer, or whatever suits your playstyle anyways. You could even theoretically forgo gun nut and just take the mods off of guns you pick up, but that's just up to personal preference and playstyle still. What's "optimal" could be ultimately interpreted by some as "how little can I invest towards survival mode as well as gain the most amount of resources, whether that be xp, caps, ammo, junk, or something else". Basically, this thread is more "what's the best way for inertia2020 to play this game" more than "what's the best way someone can play game optimally" because the latter is extremely subjective,especially when not taking the time to define it properly and clearly at the beginning. Because what ends up happening is that suggestions get added, "rules" get added for the requirements of "optimality". In the end, survival mode is not really difficult for long enough to fret over.

This essentially sums up your entire post to me, and thats not true. Just take a look at these forums there are plenty of people out there struggling on survival and they cant stabilize. I personally know two people who quit the game because they only want to play on survival, but their build ended up giving them such a hard time they are stuck going out to farm materials in previously visited areas to continue through the game.

So what do you need to "save up caps" for in the early game? How could losing out on caps be a bigger waste than not being able to get through an area because you are out of supplies and its tough? I dont know why you mentioned rifleman though, none of the gun specific perks are needed early game either if you have the mod perks and the mod perks actually effect all guns not just one classification.

And I already addressed finding guns with the mods you need. You cant rely on that over just simply picking up the mod perk. Perfect world, ya you would have the luck to find all those mods. Im not relying on luck here (not referencing the actual stat =P).

Yet almost every single reply you've made here comes down to, "If you're not playing the way I do you're doing it wrong, and if you disagree you need to leave my thread." Sorry, but that's not how a discussion works.

Where did I say people are playing it "wrong" if they dont play it my way? Im telling people to leave because they want to play the game with their own build, and believe its just as efficient to those who struggle on survival as my offered choices. Im offering up counter arguments why they arent. If they counter with "well thats not the way I want to play" than ok, you dont need to be focusing on this thread because its too serious.

Im not knocking anybody who roleplays or plays at their own speed, I even stated that no perk is a bad choice. So the discussion here is about which perks early game help those on survival more who are struggling to make it through the quest areas.

Like I said, it's highly subjective. You could take the world's worst player and no build in the world will help them. You could also take the world's best player and they barely have to invest that much to where survival mode is no longer a challenge. There's a certain point where it's better to build up your fundamentals if you must play through the game a certain way but can't. Saving caps is good if you want to be a completionist. Those caps help you towards buying all the unique guns or building shops in your settlements later in the week when basically everything's been easy mode. You could easily get several thousand extra caps early on, but like I said, it's probably a bad example because I wouldn't actually do it. I mentioned Rifleman because it's extremely efficient and can be used for guns that are ammo efficient. The armor penetration on the second rank is really good. It's low investment, high reward.

At the end of the day, the way this thread was set up does not really foster healthy discussion. I don't think there's a point in giving input past this point because like I said and what it looks like you missed is that you did not clearly state an objective by either not defining some very subjective topics or redefining things halfway through. As more discussion is added, new rules will just be added.

EDIT: Just saw your latest redefinition of what you really want which is something along the lines of what is a good way to invest your points in order to survive survival mode if you're a struggling player which is definitely different from your original two thought processes of what is the right way to play the game (which has a lot of really bad connotations) and what is the optimal way to play something.

You can do stealth without perks, which means it doesn't matter so much which perks you pick if you try to be stealthy, but if you want to help someone trying to be stealthy to have an optimal build, you tell them to get some stealth perks so they can get around easier and need less defense.

You can get what you need through what I call normal exploration. If you consider exploration "farming" then what good is this guide? Exploration and just playing around in an open world is the main reason to play this game. The story is OK, like usual, but there are games with better stories out there.

Most of the perks really aren't that bad except for perks that really aren't that useful like the ability to breath underwater (hazmat suit/power armor/mirelurk cakes remove the need for this) or perks that simply don't work with the way you want to play. Don't call it optimal or at least tell people to take your guide with a teaspoon of salt. On top of that, you're telling people who aren't good to be a better X in a guide about making the game easier for them. That's not exactly helpful.

I agree with you on all this except lockpick... to get it up to expert level only costs 2 skill points and there are way too many locked chests to not at least get it up to "advanced" level which only requires a single skill point. I would say there are far less terminals to hack and perhaps terminal hacking is unecessary, but when it comes down to it there are way more than enough skill points to go around when doing a build as you suggest anyways.

I invested in cap collector just because I had extra skill points to blow and found that selling my purified water for 14 caps to level 3 vendors made it worth it. Perhaps if you build a lot particularly using generators and power you might run short of copper and scrapper might be useful to you as well. I have not taken it.

Eh, all I can say is that the thread title made me expect I'd find something other than "max DPS!"/min-max/powergaming. But rather, a discussion of the pros & cons of various early-game perks.

(Personally, I wish I'd had higher END to get Aquagirl sooner. Being able to ignore the rads from wading in water is worth it by itself, so also being able to breath underwater is a huge bonus. I suspect my future characters will be very tempted to do that at level 2.... kind of how every FO3 character of mine tagged Explosives so I could disarm the Megaton bomb right away and get the house.)

Curious.

You say you aren't trying to tell people how to play.

Then you do just that.

As well as defending your OPINIONS on how YOU see it best to play.

As others have said, there is no right or wrong way. It is a little arrogant for you to be saying there is and continuing to defend your stance.

Perhaps take a step back, gulp down some humble pie (though I prefer Pecan, especially on this day, mmmm) and just offer suggestions, not your impassioned right and wrong way for the early game.

It's just a game, mate. Designed to be played however people wish.

Cheers.

I suppose I'm the freak in this conversation, because I don't spend my perk points as soon as I get them. I currently have 6 unspent perk points. Scrap that: 4. I forgot I just boosted gun nut and Local Leader (to create supply lines).

I usually pick my perks based on need. If I run into a safe in a market that's out of my level, I won't spend a perk to crack it. I know most items in shops don't offer much but a few rounds of ammo and a time piece. Now, if I'm in a building that took forever to clear, then there's a great chance what's in the safe is the "reward", and I'll perk up to crack it (unless a terminal is nearby to unlock it). So far, this method hasn't let me down.

I vehemently refuse to get OP perks which boost my stats, such as +10 in damage resist. The game is challenging, but not so much as to need buffs.

Most of my perks have went to armorer, gun nut, and Lone Wanderer (the extra gain in item carry is sort of a necessity if you focus on settlements, like I do). I also purchased Scavver, level 1, because weapons are a fantastic source for wood and steel, and trust me: those go quick. Screws and other tidbits were helpful for the first few levels, but now I've plenty.

Bottom line is perks shouldn't be used to "beat the game", but rather, enhance the character you want to play. For me, this really increases the immersion. If I just wanted to shoot my way through the game being OP, then I see no reason to play this game as a role playing game.

Just my two caps.

I dig your two caps but for the sake of discussion I would argue endurance perks are worthwhile only depend iron the type that of character you're creating. My sneaky dude has no need for them since the fights over before it even begins, he's extremely lethal but definitely fragile. Compensate his weak defense by being a glass cannon. You could flip that and be a defensive juggernaut who wades through fights. Play style + perk cohesiveness = fallout ... From my perspective

Well I myself play on survival only and I don't use armor, so... Survival is pretty damn easy in unmodded game, it doesn't really matter what you wear anyways. The DR perk gives more protection than early leather and raider gear so I do think it's more useful, if you need armor.

I don't play for optimal play. I play for what i find the most rewarding. Yes, I can get one shot from several game mechanics. I actually like that. I'd rather form a plan of dealing with difficult enemies or be careful not to step on mines, than be able to take several hits and play sloppy. I must take lock picking fairly early on...because oh shiny..must get it. It's not an mmo, so I'm not really worried about the perfect build.