mephe, wow... that's a lot of ideas. And you're right, several coincide with what I'm already doing/trying to do. I guess great minds think alike and all.

Thank you to everyone for contributing ideas so far - I have a lot to consider and figure out how to implement now. (And the testing... oh, the testing...)

OK Mephe, let me go point by point through your suggested changes and discuss (this should maybe go in another topic, but meh... we're on the subject already)

1. Enchanting mana cost fix - I like your suggested changes. I may not be able to go through every piece of random loot at this time, but I'm hoping I can change the max values in the ENCH file, or the MGEF that is tied to it. (Will look into it). Not sure about blocking the fortify restoration potion exploit - honestly, people who go out of their way for this sort of thing are unlikely to download a "balanced" mod in the first place. It's a good idea, but just maybe not worth the extra effort.

2. Combat mana regen fix - By default, combat regen is 33% of regular regen. I upped it to 45%, 60%, or 75% depending on how hard you want to make magicka management for yourself (different players have different ideas of "balanced") 100% is a bit *too* easy from the feedback I received on my mod. I have no qualms with people stacking regen enchants if that's how they want to use them.

3. Casting mana regen shut off - why DOESN'T magicka regen while casting? I hate trying to aim a firebolt, waiting for the enemy to run back towards me, knowing I'm not regenerating mana all the while... what stinks is there's a game setting for allowing or disallowing NPCs to regen magicka while casting. Where's that setting for player characters?!? I'm hoping the CK will reveal more...

4. New spells that allow the mage to become safe for a short time and regen mana will be needed - Will they? What's wrong with the Become Ethereal shout?

5. Spell cost versus damage issue - I handled this a simpler way. There's a multiplier based on proficiency (skill level) that affects how much spells from that school cost. I increased it on all three versions of my balance_magic .esp files. (increases the discount so all spells cost less as you get more proficient) Obviously, the easy version got the biggest proficiency based discount, while hard was only slightly more discounted than vanilla.

6. Add 6 more perk levels to the augment damage perks - I won't add perks. This causes game save breaking issues when anyone uninstalls the mod, and I don't ever want my mods to potentially break someone's game.

7. Armor has no downsides for a mage - I like the idea, and I think I know how to implement it already (using only the first perk from each school of magic)

8. Impact can stun lock bosses - I agree this is a problem. I am desperately working on trying to find a fix.

9. Master spells svck - so far, reduced casting times of destruction master spells to 1 second, and increased the damage (how much varied by spell). I'll be looking at the others individually as I examine each school of magic.

10. Some perks svck - some need work, that's for sure. I like some of your suggestions, but I think there still needs to be plenty of testing and tweaking to get them all right.

New spells - I have my own list of what's missing compared to previous elder scrolls games.

ok, after sleeping on it and thinking things through a bit more, here's what I'm leaning towards for alteration:

- Reduce the duration of paralyze spells
- Reduce the cost but increase the power (damage) of objects hurled by telekinesis
- Replace the Mage Armor perks (people don't like them becoming obsolete when you get dragonhide). What they get replaced with... I'll get to in a minute
- Instead, each protection spells automatically adds additional armor for each piece of cloth armor worn (also, if you're not wearing anything). The total added armor will depend on the power of the spell (oakflesh will add less bonus armor than ebonyflesh). This fixes the dragonmask issue since it's only 1 piece of armor - you'd still get bonuses for the other 3 pieces. The bonus for body armor would be great than hands, feet, or head so it balances. Overall, cloth wearing mages should still be "squishy"
- Each main perk (novice through master) increases the duration of alteration spells so a master alteration wizard can maintain his/her magical protection spells for much longer than a novice

2 options for the mage armor perk replacements:

option 1
- wearing armor now affects casting cost for all schools of magic. Light armor increases cost slightly for each piece worn, and heavy armor increases cost a bit more
- each level of the new perk decreases the casting cost for all schools of magic (all 3 would negate the penalty for armored mages, and give cloth wearing mages a nice bonus)
- this goes hand in hand with adjusting the fortify enchantments so that armored mages can't get -100% casting cost

option 2
- all protection spells become much cheaper to cast but reduce magicka regen for the duration of the spell (to mimic a maintenance cost for the spell)
- the new perks diminish and eventally negate the regen penalty

I kind of like option 1, because it makes the decision to wear armor or cloth much more interesting. An armored mage will be at a disadvantage unless they invest in alteration to get the perks, and cloth mages have the opportunity to hurl more spells at higher levels.

I for some reason dont find myself using shouts that much. But for this one my main concern was how hard low level mages have it, low or 0 armor, no spells to help them keep critters at range, and a small mana poo
l.
The telekinetic spell in the game is awesome, and has so much potential that I wanted my mage to have one hand that could fling mobs around and the other to damage them. This sort of active defense would reduce the need for armor and becomes a viable alternative to no armor if the mage is low on perk points. But the nice thing is, I can make my own spells as a seperate mod once the CK is out.


The one reason I didnt want to do this was because this allows non perked magic users to become just as strong as perked magic users. Just like all the weapon skills have perks that greatly increase weapon damage, destruction needs perks that increase destruction damage and reduce mana cost.
With the current cost of spells and magic not regening while casting I calculated a good amount of cost reduction to be around 80% (remember no more -100% from enchants). I think that has to come from perks, and not just because of skill level.


Very good point and not something I thought about! Maybe extra damage +50% can be placed in the intese flame, deep freeze, augmented shock spot to help beef those perks up.

Definetly like option 1. It also helps solve destruction magic costs for cloth versus armored mages. Very nice.

hmmm... I haven't heard as many complaints about being a mage in early levels, but regardless, I'm all for new spells when the CK comes out. I wanted to do add on packs that work with my mod but provide a greater assortment of spells that scale up.

As for point 2 (5?) - non perked magic users are weaker with the mod already because of how it scales. Spells become more potent and/or longer lasting as you perk up the tree. Reduced magicka cost for proficiency more closely resembles the proficiency damage multiplier for melee or ranged combat (1 + skill * 0.4).

I've been getting pretty good feedback on how the destruction spells scale currently. They pack a pretty decent punch at mastery, especially if you use the full aresenal of leveled spells.

OMG... I just reread your mod readme and I think I finally understand how you fixed destruction spells. Looks like the way you did it works out almost how I was planning. We both got to the same 80% magic cost reduction at the top end (50% from perk * 40% for having 100 dest) = 80% reduction. Still a little fuzzy how you are making the damage increase on each spell, but I am sure it all works out.

Looks like I need to download your mod asap and get playing!

Actually the thing that I would appreciate the most for my Mage and Spellsword would be the option to not have to recast certain spells and instead have a Magicka reduction while they are activated.
The Alteration Shields, Candlelight, Muffle, Destruction Cloaks, conjured and reanimated Servants, Bound Weapons.
Also bound weapons are way to weak and to few when compared to normal weapons.
That would certainly make them more enjoyable.

Unfortunately, I don't know how to make them toggle like that. It might be a possibility when the creation kit comes out. I am going to try to make the bound weapons scale a little better when I get to conjuration.

I'm one of the ones wearing heavy armor with the -100% magicka cost reduction, and I'm pretty happy with it, so I don't have too much to add as far as the armor spells go. What I've seen in games like Dragon Age though is that spells like mage armor are treated as sustained spells - they subtract a base cost from your overall magicka pool, and only need to be cast once. This helps keep the cost in check, is more convenient, and keeps you from being totally screwed in longer fights. To balance with heavy armor, all magic related enchantments should be stronger on cloth than light armor, and stronger on light armor than heavy, and the damage resistance boost from armor spells should fall off dramatically as the caster's non-magic armor rating increases. So someone wearing 500 armor worth of heavy plate would get 20 armor from the spell, while someone in 0 armor cloth would get more like 450. That way you're trading a bit of magicka and some overall damage resistance for stronger equipment enchantments (that hopefully matter.)

What mostly concerns me is destruction. I don't see why it should function any differently from melee. Melee attackers can swing their swords indefinitely for moderate damage, but spell casters have to resort to casting cost enchantment exploits to get the same. Mana regen rates should be increased to allow you to cast basic spells indefinitely. More powerful spells should be equivalent to melee power attacks, you only get a few per fight before you have to start chugging potions. I also think they're missing something as far as casting goes. They have a number of spells in each elemental branch, that basically boil down to:

short range, single target (flames, sparks, etc.)
long range, single target (firebolt, lightning bolt, etc.)
long range, AOE (fireball, chain lightning, etc.)

These should represent three very distinct tactical choices - get in close for higher damage and easy targeting at the risk of taking more melee damage; target one enemy from a distance for pretty good damage; target multiple enemies from a distance for pretty good damage, but maybe lower per target damage or higher overall magicka cost or casting time. But instead, each spell becomes obsolete in terms of dps as soon as you learn the next one up the ladder. Incinerate and thunderbolt add nothing to tactics and just serve to boost your damage enough to keep you from being pulverized at higher levels, while making flames, firebolt, sparks and lightning bolt obsolete.

A better system would be proper damage scaling with destruction skill level. Flames should have the highest dps due to its short range, followed by firebolt, followed by fireball. Unfortunately this would probably have to be done at the engine level. The only solution open to modders will likely be creating novice/journeyman/adept/expert/master versions of each of the spells, and adding/removing them from the player's spell list via script as their destruction skill increases. Not so bad for the 9 basic spell types in the base game, but it'll be a hassle once things like Midas Spells of Aurum come out. So hopefully Bethesda does it.

As for being able to stun lock enemies with that destruction perk, I think that's a little unbalanced once you're able to cast spells indefinitely. What I'd like to see would be spell charging - flames would be unable to stun. But firebolt and fireball would have two levels of charge when dual cast - the first level of charge, equivalent to the current amount of time it takes to charge the spells, would not stun even if dual cast. Charging the spell for maybe twice as long though would cast a more powerful, much higher magicka cost version with the ability to stun. This would amount to a melee power attack, and have enough of a magicka cost that it would deplete your reserves after a few shots.

Anyway, I'm a modder, so if I don't see any magic overhauls that I like before I'm done with my needs mod, I'll probably take a crack at it, but I'll likely have my hands full with just that.

Thanks for the comments, Imp of the Perverse. However, at the risk of sounding like a broken record...

I HAVE ALREADY MADE DESTRUCTION SPELLS LEVEL!
Shouted like a true dovahkiin!

Seriously, though. My mod already makes all of the destruction spells scale up in damage as you progress through the destruction perk tree, so that by the time you are a destruction master, you have a whole set of useful spells. Not new spells cluttering up your spellbook once the old ones have become obsolete... truly leveled destruction spells. It's on http://skyrimnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=2275 right now.

(Sorry for the shouting, I just feel like somehow people aren't seeing this. Please check it out and tell your friends...)

I think the Dragonhide spell is a great spell, and I don't even mind the casting time, but I really think its duration needs to be extended by a lot. 30 seconds is just not long enough at all. I think it should be at least 90 seconds, or maybe 120 seconds. Other than the duration, I think the Dragonhide spell is gold.

With the other armor spells, I agree with you mysty, durations should be longer and mage armor perks should give more bang for your buck.

I think the heavy armor perk for making it weightless is completely stupid and shouldn't be in the game at all. Heavy armor is heavy. I think that perk should not make it be like armor is weightless, but should instead give you higher stamina regen or cost reduction for power attacks when wearing heavy armor or something.

Awesome, I just recently started playing a mage so I haven't been following the "destruction svcks" threads or mods that closely. I'll give it a try. Sounds like you were able to get the scaling in there without needing to do anything too tedious?

My hope was that it would be possible to make them "pretty much permanent" by largely increasing the duration and change the spell to also have a disease or poison effect that decreases Magicka.
But I dont really know how such things works, so probably not.

Alteration: Dragonhide has to behave like another shield spell. Should max out at 80 percent weapon damage protection with all applicable perks.
Shields should have a default single cast duration of at least 3 minutes. 5 minutes single cast with perk. Dual casting them should net you at least 10 minutes worth of protection with all applicable perks.

Telekinesis should work exactly like the gravity gun in Half Life 2 or the Rock-It Launcher is Fallout 3. The higher your level in alteration, the more damage projectiles do and less mana you expend. Master level telekinesis like spell should work like Fus Ro Dah,,, a telekinetic push.

Illusion: where is the shadow decoy or mental bolt? Illusion spell that drains stamina... force them to hold their breath. Fool them to attack your shadow decoy... see you somewhere else and attack at nothing? Telepathy? Seeing through the eyes of NPCs?

One of my favorite Oblivion mods was Galerion's Unarmored Mod.
You may want to look at that mod for some inspiration.

It used your level in Acrobatics to represent your ability to dodge, weave, jump, avoid attacks.
Everytime you were struck by a weapon while not wearing armor, your Acrobatics skill increased slightly.
A higher Acrobatics level translated into a permanent increase in your natural ability to avoid damage.
Basically it was a permanent Shield spell that only worked when you were unemcumbered (carrying less than half your weight allowance) and not wearing armor.
There were bonuses once you increased Acrobatics to apprentice, journeyman, and master levels. The bonuses were things like increased protection from slashing weapons and perhaps magic attacks - I can't remember it all.

It made playing an unarmored Kensai type of character feasible.

The big problem here is that Skyrim doesn't have an Acrobatics skill, and I'm not sure the ---flesh spells act like Oblivion's Shield spell.
Perhaps you could base a "natural armor" ability off of your Alteration level.
Or perhaps you could tie it to the Block skill. Perhaps blocking while not wearing armor could be used to abstract some kind of unarmored protection.

Hope this gives you some ideas.

With respect to Alteration, I feel there needs to be early stages of the Paralyze spell available. It's pretty essential for mage characters and you need a high level alteration skill to get it in the first place.

Again, thanks to everyone for the great feedback!

@Imp of the Perverse - define "tedious" It took editing just about all of the destruction spells, all of their associated magic effects, and all of the enchantments for the destruction staves mixed in with a good dose of math magic, but I'm pretty happy with the results so far.

@Johnny Doe - yeah, that was sort of the inspiration for option 2, but it's tricky right now. Maybe I'll have more ability to change things once the creation kit comes out.

@anhalibut - I used to have a mod a little bit like that for Morrowind (but the increased dodge was based off your unarmored ability). Since there is neither unarmored nor acrobatics in Skyrim... I'm working with what's available.

OK, mod is updated, largely based on your feedback and suggestions here. Please let me know what you think. Is there anything I should change? Anything too strong or too weak?

http://skyrimnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=2275

Someone at Skyrim Nexus brought up an interesting point - they felt like the alteration spells are a little too boring, and asked if I could implement leveling protection spells (much as I did with the destruction spells) so that a master mage could have an assortment of useful protections to choose from. The suggestion was stonger spells with shorter durations vs. weaker spells with longer durations. I pulled out my trusty spreadsheet and tinkered around.

What if... Novice protection spell provided armor only, scaling up as you perk up the tree so that total armor bonus (for cloth) is 40/80/143/227/316/379 (no perks/novice/etc. up to master) with increasing duration from 60 secs up to 135 (as they all are right now)
Apprentice spell offered 30/60/106/169/235/281 armor but additionally resistance to some type of damage (poison? fire? frost? pick one) that also scaled so 10%/20%/36%/57%/79%/94% with the same scaled duration. Less armor, but some resistance.
Adept spell offered a different type of resistance, but worked pretty much the same as Apprentice
Expert also works pretty much the same, but with 2 resistances and for a slightly shorter duration
Master (being a master spell) offers higher armor, ideally reaching the armor cap at mastery, all resistances (but lower %s than the other resistance spells) and a much shorter duration. ie. your boss fight spell.

Do you guys like the idea at all? (running this idea by people here, at Nexis, and on the mod forum so I can get feedback from more players)