I feel like the armor is this game is pretty... unbalanced. If you wear heavy armor and take smithing and enchanting... you're pretty much untouchable. With the perk that removes the speed restrictions and weight, and one of the perks from sneaking, a thief can hide just fine even in a full heavy suit. At max armor (all perked out), you avoid 80% of damage, and reflect another 10% back at the opponent.

Light armor... is about the same. It might be harder to get it to the cap, but it can be done. You lose the reflected damage (you avoid 10% instead - does that bring the total to 90%, or is it still capped at 80%?), and your stamina regens 50% faster, so you can do more power attacks, or sprint more often, etc.

And then there's... cloth. Since the unarmored skill had been removed from this game, players who want to wear mage robes, monk robes, or just want to be fashionable (I'm sure some gorgeous clothing mods will be coming soon...) are forced to rely pretty heavily on alteration, which doesn't do nearly enough. And mages who want to wear dragon masks? Oh... sorry. The Mage Armor perks don't apply to you. (And once you get the master level spell, you might even be grateful if you never bothered to take them. Now that's just dirty!) Of course... that one only last 30 seconds, takes 3 or 4 seconds to cast, and eats up most of your magicka pool, so... hope you brought a staff, because you may not have much left for offensive spells.

This has led mages to just wear heavy armor, forego alteration, and enchant it with -100% magicka cost, so who cares about the regen bonuses from robes anyway? That may be a perfectly valid way to play (let's not debate it anymore, I don't care), but it's not how I personally want to roleplay my mage, and I have seen enough posts from other players to believe that I'm not alone. Besides, let's not forget about the dragonborn who just want to run around dressed like tavern wenches... (hey, to each his/her own!)

I'm not a sit back and whine kinda gal, so I'm working on a mod to rebalance magic skills and make role playing a mage a more enjoyable experience. I've been browsing the forums, but see too much arguing and not enough helpful discussion about how to adjust things fairly. So let's discuss ideas here please, and I'll try to implement some of them into a useful mod.

(For those of you on the console... I feel your pain. I wish we could offer mods as DLC, but Microsoft and Sony seem to frown on that)

I'd like to see slightly longer duration for the mage armor spells.
+Maybe a perk similar to light armor's Deft Movement: a chance to avoid damage. That'd be especially welcome for monk-type characters.

The dragon masks were modded (it's on Nexus somewhere) to make them non-armor.

Unenchanted armor only protects against physical damage, correct? Perhaps adding a Resist Physical Damage spell would help your character concept?

I found that Alteration was pretty neat so far. I missed having a shield, but otherwise having a spell like ebonyflesh gives me 300 armour in a second, without having to sacrifice much. The dragonskin is slightly meh, but other than that, the alteration school is not just about armour. You get both magic resist and absorb perks (both 30%) from the trees. You also get paralysis, which i have to say is pretty damn overpowered. Why need 567 armour, when you don't get hit?

Now, overall, i think the game is pretty balanced in the fact that mages should not have as much armour as the rest, since they aren't wearing any. The only thing i can possibly think of actually bringing the experience to a better level is simply adding more spells and variations of thereof, e.g i would not mind seeing a higher level chain lightning spell, or an adept level channeled sparks spell.

My initial thought on the issues with alteration:

- Protection spells are a bit too expensive
- Protection spells don't last nearly long enough (interrupt the action to switch spells and recast partway through a battle? yuck!)
- Protection spells may not be overpowered - but armor is, giving mages little incentive to use alteration (methinks wearing armor should possibly affect spellcasting ability)
- Cloth wearing players can't get mage armor bonuses while wearing dragon masks
- Mage Armor perks are worthless once you gain the master spell
- There should possibly be other advantages to balance the lowered armor rating
- And WHY can't I cast the master spell if I have a protection spell active?

I have to also voice the fact that the flesh-armor spells do not have a long enough duration. Eventually it just becomes too annoying to recast them. Even with stability and dual cast you have a 180 second cast, double it? triple it? vegetable soup lasts 720!

Also since this school has nothing whatsoever for offense until expert level, I think a nice addon would be a slow spell. Frost spells deal slow damage, so the mechanic is there. So I would suggest a slow spell that just deals a more potent version of the slow effect.Appurtenance level maybe.

@Ashiraniir - yes there is a mod to make dragon masks non-armored. But I can eliminate the need for it by changing the requirements.

@ZomZom - maybe... but tricky without the constuction set. I've deciphered a lot of the spell/magic effect data, but not all of it yet...

@Dayer - Yes, I don't think the ac from protection is necessarily underpowered (just noticed a typo in my last post...), and I may decrease the duration of paralysis if it's overpowered.
Also, I have already implemented leveled destruction spells in the mod. http://skyrimnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=2275

Eventually, I would like to create some addon mods for additional spells to complement each school of magic, but probably not until after the creation kit is released.

It doesn't use up a full magicka pool if you're using that not-necessarily-armor gear you're wearing to reduce the cost of Alteration spells.

Dualcast and perked-out, Dragonhide lasts 99 seconds. If I'm not done the majority of battles in this game inside of 99 seconds ... well, I suppose that's time to throw my Become Ethereal shout, sprint off to a quiet corner, recast Dragonhide, and rejoin the scrum. Or paralyze everyone in the vicinity with that other master-level Alteration spell I can cast for free or close to it because of my reduced alteration cost gear.

This is an interesting topic, it seems like the consensus is don't take mage armor perks because you can't cast the master spell. I don't understand, why can you not cast the master spell. FYI I have just started my destruction/Alteration mage

No, the concensus is, the master spell (Dragonhide) maxes out your armor regardless of whether you're wearing cloth or Deadric and regardless of any Mage Armor perk points, so all those perk points you put into making *flesh spells more effective when wearing all nonarmor become irrelevant once you have that spell. If you're never casting the spells that Mage Armor perks improve anymore, those perk points no longer look like a good investment.

The master level protection like spell works differently than the others and doesn't rely on your armor at all, so the mage armor perks don't affect it. For some reason, it doesn't work if you have a weaker protection spell cast (like the game assumes you'd rather have the armor and just cancels the more powerful spell) until it wears off.

While an odd interaction, I have difficulty seeing why it's especially relevant. *flesh become obsolete once you have Dragonhide. That Dragonhide doesn't interact nicely with *flesh seems like a difference that makes no difference - once I have Dragonhide, *flesh aren't even in my favorites menu anymore.

Oh! Beaten to it!

Also, I want to clarify. I'm compiling a list of complaints to address and possible solutions to some of the issues. I'm ok with clothies being "squishy."

Mysty, as a fellow modder, I agree with you, and can tell you there are several ways this can be made better. There are numerical values that can be changed to make spells effects last longer and be made stronger. You can add scripts to robes that when worn, can add the effects of armor that don't effect enchanting. Mage's are pushed (imo) to play battle mages. An unarmed monk (which was also removed) didn't want armor. Hence the ability to have a high agility and wisdom to move and think faster than their enemy. A slow spell would help unarmored combat (once it's implemented), and altered Alteration spells will make mage armor more plausible.

Can we just go on a whim here:

Ebonyflesh with Mage Armor gives you 300 armor for 120 seconds (right?)

So, what if, instead of Dragonhide just topping this number, it gives a varied set of resistances. Dragons (in general, in most pen and paper and roleplaying games) are resistant or immune to magic, and at least resistant to a certain element. So, instead of raising the bar on other armour spells, simply give Dragonhide a % bonus to damage reduction AND magic resist. Lets say that both are 50%, you can get a character who is nearly immune to both magic and damage by casting this spell, albeit at 3-4 second casting time.

Of course, the % can be reduced, to 30% or even less, but i think that primarily dragonhide trumps ebonyflesh, so instead, adding something to Dragonhide to make it work in line with ebony flesh would be pretty decent (yes, it does it a hell of a lot of magicka).

Paralysis was kind of weird, 10 (8?) seconds seems a bit too much, since enemies usually lose another 1-2 seconds getting up, so it's really about 10 seconds, and if you paralyze them once, you can do it again, so you can stunlock them 100% of the fight. Doesn't seem too balanced. I would just change the duration on the spell, requiring more spamming to keep it effective (there is mass paralysis for the masters anyway, and that one lasts whooping long).

Other than that, i think alteration could benefit from a "absorb spell" spell, similar to oblivion. There is no basic spell reflection, but there is spell absorption, so perhaps a spell at higher levels that would do something like 10 or 20% spell absorption would be pretty decent.

Alteration is mainly a defensive school, so there shouldn't be too many things influencing enemies, rather you should focus on boosting yourself.

I think (as others have mentioned) that alteration protection spells are actually ok, apart from the master spell making the perks useless. The problem lies in heavy/light armour being too good, not in alteration being too bad. That being said you want to change alteration, so i will focus on what alteration needs in relation to heavy/light armour.

To begin with the master level spell needs to not make the perks redundant. I would suggest letting the perks for mage armour increase duration on the master level spell. Add +5secs for each perk if you meet the prerequisite of not wearing any armour. 15 secs with dual casting etc on top would make a pretty nice buff to the spell.

The second issue is the relative weakness of wearing robes instead of actual armour. As mentioned i dont think this really is an armour issue, the 50% percent or something damage resistance you get from a perked up ebony flesh seem fine to me since i dont think it is supposed to be as good as wearing actual armour. My choice would be to give increased movement speed and reduced casting cost of spells. Something along the lines of +20% movement speed and -20% casting cost for all spellschools if wearing no armour but dont make it an all or nothing, rather let it give a diminished bonus depending on how much and how heavy armour you wear. Say 10% if in all light armour, 18% if you wear only a light armour helmet (16% with heavy armour helmet), or 2% if you wear light armour (1% if heavy armour) on everything but the gloves etc etc.

A flat -20% cost reduction to all spells on top of what you get from other gear (archmages robe comes into mind) would be a huge buff to a mage, making them a) stronger overall, even without modded destruction etc and B) make a heavy armour wearing mage a lot less attractive

Not yet master on alteration, but at my level (39 or 40 dunno) the armor buffs + perk work just fine, I can't tank but I rarely get one-shot and can heal me before I die usually.
Would be nice to have an unarmored skill or something alike tho.
And as it has been suggested, slow or root spells would fit well on alteration and could make fights more strategic.
Also, when I've seen wall of *** in destruction school, I thought it would be a real wall. A real wall could be nice in alteration (could work like a unkillable summoned npc which takes some room and prevents others to go through it for example), could be used to block a corridor while you place some runes or heal your follower for example.

Of course.
My "quick fix" so far was to reduce magnitude, increase duration, (to get the cost about right) and then increase mage armor multipliers, as well as increasing the potency of the Stability perk. That makes protection spells a little more beneficial to unarmored players, and a little less to battle mages (which made sense, imo) while making the spells typically last throughout an encounter, but people have asked me to go further and brought up the issues with dragon masks, dragonhide, etc. So I'm looking at it a little more closely.

I don't want to add armor enchants to robes (what about people who want to use robe replacers or other clothing mods? I'd like them to be compatible if possible), but it certainly would've been one approach.

all in all alteration bottomline advantage of taking alteration over taking any armor perk is that you are not dependant on secondary skills and assorted perks, aswell as the skill and perks of the armor skill itself, about the same, yet temporary protection.
alteration is also much easier and faster to level while also providing magic protection AND the best CC of the game (paralysis)

I am very much so against user created mods that influence gameplay, they are basicaly cheating tbh, if something is not properly done, I rather the game creator fixes it with their purpose, rather than gamers decide how it should be that is almost always "abusively" changed.
but if I had to do tweaks to Alteration tree, they would only be 2, increase base duration of armors until ebony to 80 seconds, and dragonhide to 50, more than that isnt called for tbh, since you have dual casting and stability already.
and increase the mage armor perk to 400% with an extra perk so that you are not so reliable on dragonhide in late stages of the game (since it costs alot of mana) and 300 rating isnt enough even for lower level mobs on master diff.

but tbh all in all even without those tweaks I feel alteration works very well, you can easily have ebony armor by lvls 20-25 and 300 armor there is pretty good, by lvls 35-40 you will already have the gear to rely on paralysis over armor for defence anyway.
all this without having to worry about elveling and perking TWO different trees to get passive use or armor.

You've hit on a number of excellent points. I agree, it's not that alteration is underpowered, it's that heavy/light armor is overpowered. But would rebalancing armor be useful in a magic rebalancing mod? (Maybe I'll save that one for Balanced Combat or something...)

Interesting idea for the mage armor perk adjustment. I was thinking of building the addtional armor for unarmored characters right into the spells. Honestly, it's already there - it just uses a conditional to check and see if you've taken the perk, but I could change that conditional to check and see if the player is wearing cloth instead - maybe just the chest piece to avoid the conflict with dragon masks. But then I'd need a good replacement for the perks.

Increased movement speed is supposedly built in - but I don't really notice moving any faster in robes than I do in light armor. Reduced casting cost is typically already on the robes - again, I'd sort of rather nerf armor. Maybe you'd get a magicka regen penalty for wearing armor, more for heavy than light?

I also thought about increasing duration at the explense of magicka regen (to simulate a maintenance cost for the long lasting effect) and having the extra perks remove that penalty?

Just throwing out ideas. Comments?

Step 1) Download Improved Destruction Magic OR Battle Mage from Skryim.
Step 2) If you want more clothing options download Archmage Crafting or any number of other mods that turn various armor/items into clothing.
Step 3) Play a Mage.

Yeah, i think the best solution would be to give penalties to magic cast cost to armour, but giving a bonus to not wearing armour works the same way kind of. I very much prefer a -casting cost rather than a +regen, partly because a -cast cost is a lot better, and partly because it is (almost) unique. I have a ton of content left to cover, havent even beat the main story, but so far the only item i've come across that gives a -cast cost to all magic schools is . So getting such a bonus to mages not wearing armour would feel a lot more special than a +regen bonus that you see hundreds of wherever you turn.
It feels like it would be a good trade off for a mage. Sure i can wear heavy armour and get 85% damage resistance, but if i choose not to i can get -20% cast cost for all spells..

Another vote that paralysis is overpowered.

I do understand your concern about mods that feel like "cheats." There is nothing wrong with playing Skyrim unmodded, and I'm certainly not going to twist your arm and tell you that you have to play it my way. That said, I don't find cheating to be very fun - what's the point of a game without challenge? Certain aspects of Skyrim seem to push players towards certain play styles, and I would like more freedom to try different things without feeling like I'm "doing it wrong." Game designers don't always get it right - that's where the principles of design and refine based on playtesting come in.

Can you dual cast dragonhide? I thought master spells required both hands and cannot be dual cast.

I do appreciate the comments and suggestions, even if you don't intend to play the mod. Thanks!

Make telekinesis better. Cost less, throw farther and harder. Perhaps make NPCs pushable with teleK if you are a master or something