So my guild's almost exclusively DC, but we do have one stinkin' elf in our midst. Cue debates on the comparative superiority of mer, and whether or not their alleged greater intellect and longer lifespan qualifies them as better rulers of Tamriel than man (setting aside, for the moment, the fact that their leader is a youngster by *any* race's standards).

On to the point of this thread. I cannot argue that, if a race did indeed exist that were more intelligent and rational than man, I would wholeheartedly support their right to rule. It cannot after all be argued that man, in reality or any fantasy you can name, is rather good at harming and even killing himself. In the words of KINMUNE Ayrenn herself, man is indeed "driven by emotion. They lack the wisdom that comes with age". Her proposal? "Domination is not our goal, nor is the acclamation of power for its own sake.". Sounds like a tempting proposal - let the grown-ups take charge, and Tamriel goes into a magical golden age of peace and prosperity, without all the abuse of power and selfishness that us humans are so prone to.

Besides the fact that the "which race is best" debate has been done to death though, I realize that it could be rendered moot if we call their bluff. That is, if substantial evidence existed that proved them to display a comparative level of fallibility to man when placed in a position of leadership. Specifically, I'm looking for records of all this use of other intelligent races as slaves I've heard about, and of killing children in some misguided attempt at racial purity. That, to me, sounds pretty far from that vision their Queen so eloquently espoused.

Well, this Thalmor are oppresive tyrants who want to become gods by destroying the Mundus, killing man and the other races in the process. They are so xenophobic that I doubt they would make good rulers, civil wars would appear everywhere. They are not the perfect rulers, not if what do you want isn't a dictatorship. Oppresion is the bane of an Aldmeri hegemony.

And per YR's notes on the Pocket Guide, that about killing babies maybe BS that Tiber's scribes made up and just propaganda.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-first-edition-aldmeri-dominion

The source of the eugenicist nature of the Altmer comes from a chap who was derided as a fool by a mer commentator.

That fool may even be made up

Right, I do remember that. Should have really at least scanned the PGE before posting.

Also, thanks for reminding me: I'd like to take the Thalmor out of the equation here. Aside from the fact that they don't yet exist in ESO, they, as you say, aren't interested in this world at all, and actively seek the end of it. I consider them a cult that would be unfair to use as representative of all Altmer.

That intelligence, rationality, and superiority may well be exactly what makes them such poor rulers.

If we accept that intellectual superiority justifies dominion, then slavery is a logical outcome. It's for our own good, right? It's the natural order that men should defer to mer--all men, to all mer. "Freedom" is just a word for "humans get to do whatever stupid idea comes into their heads."

And it's compassionate, right? I mean, the truly smart thing would be to just kill all humans. Why should such a problematic, lesser species even be allowed to exist? But, among the superior traits of elves is compassion, and so, they endeavor to find us a place in their superior order.

The lore on the first dominion is very scarce. I have only read the book about Ayrenn and some interviews about the faction. They are less extreme than the second Aldmeri Dominion (or their propaganda counterpart for the matter), but they are described as "righteous" and that doesn't appeal to me

The plain and simple fact is:

The Altmeri view of Mundas is a prison, its a mistake, it breeds suffering, it is wholly evil.

There is no use in keeping it, there is no evil in getting rid of it. They are doing all of the other souls a favor by making it never happen.

As I understand it, the Fourth Era Thalmor are a hollow mockery of the previous Thalmor; the old version espoused isolationism, while the current one espouses tyranny and fascism. Basically, a bunch of power-hungry fascist high elves thought to elicit the good name of the previous Thalmor in their bid for power.

The latter part is the Thalmor view, not the Altmeri view. The Altmer used to have a religion based upon escaping the Mundus in the same way Auri-El did, symbolized by the Crystal Tower. Once that fell during the Oblivion Crisis, Altmer cultural identity was dealt a crippling blow, making it ripe for the "Escape the prison by destroying it along with all who disagree that it's a prison" mentality of the Thalmor (as opposed to what it was before, "Escape the prison by metaphysically climbing out of the giant hole above it", or the more padomaic "Escape the prison by realizing it's not a prison but a proving ground and prove yourself worthy"). And even then, there are suspicions that the Thalmor power isn't derived from the altmeri people but from inducing fear in the populace.

The 4th Era Thalmor are a sick perversion of the Altmeri view on reality.

I used to argue that, but then I realized that the Thalmor arent insane radicals.

I look at them like political parties:

The Thalmor are on the far Right, while Altmer who accept things like Imperial gods and leadership, and think that the Mortal plane isnt too bad are on the far Left.

They arent a perversion, they have always been around.

As I said, un-doing all of creation isnt a bad thing. Creation took away their divinity, it caused suffering. Unmaking the Mortal plane (its not destroying it, simply un-making it) is doing something good for all souls as they are returning to their divinity.

The killing humans to undo creation is a radical view, but unmaking the world is not

I'm arguing the opposite. I do see the sense of it, mind. It's the "I Robot" scenario, where humans must be controlled for their own protection. What I'm saying is that a people who would set up such an inequitable society are the definition of "seeking power for its own sake" ,which contradicts Ayrenn's stated goals. She seeks dominion, not domination.

Edit: forgot I'd quoted you too. Interesting way of looking at it, but nonetheless, it would not be fair to call either the 'Altmeri view', as you did of the former.

I've asked this before, but whether Altmeri or Thalmor, what is the source of this belief? It's about time I educated myself, can anyone provide any texts that explain this viewpoint?

And that's why the 4th Era Thalmor are not the same as the Thalmor in Ayrenn's time.

Then what was Auri-El's apotheosis, and Crystal Tower's commemorating of the event? A hobbling blow to Germany in World War 1 is what made it ripe for takeover by the Nazis. Likewise, loss of Crystal Tower, the symbol of the path Auri-El took to escape the Mundus, was what set the stage for the Thalmor.

Check out the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Summerset as well. Before the Thalmor rose to power in the 4th Era, young Altmer wanted to change their society. I think that when Altmer complain about their lot in life, other Altmer say that Alinor is the greatest, most civilised nation in the world and life is worse for everyone else. What Ayrenn is saying looks like Golden Mer's Burden to me whether it's sincere or not. And RL modern imperialistic powers didn't exactly coddle their own people, let alone those of the countries they conquered.

One possible advantage is that Altmer must have far fewer succession wars.

The Monomyth. PGE...